Mark Sakamoto, interviewed by Alexander Pekic, 18 December 2015
Abstract
Mark speaks about his grandparents' dispossession and experience of being sent to work
on a farm in Taber, Alberta following their removal from Steveston, and his family eventually settling in Medicine Hat. He also discusses his coming
to know of their story and its meaning to him personally, as well as his feelings
about what their story means to society more broadly.
This oral history is from an interview conducted by the Oral History cluster of the
Landscapes of Injustice project.
00:00:00.000
Alexander Pekic (AP)
So it's recording. We are interviewing Mark Sakomoto today on December 18th 2015 for
the Landscapes of Injustice research project. Mark, thank you very much for speaking
with us.
Mark Sakamoto (MS)
Uhuh, my pleasure, thanks Alex.
AP
Thank you. so like I mentioned before you're sort of interested in hearing about how
the internment and such - how you came to know of it and what you know about your
parents or grandparents and their experience?
MS
00:05:03.000Sure, so, I was born in 1977 in Medicine Hat, Alberta. I was born in Medicine Hat
Alberta because my grandfather and grandmother were interned in Taber in a sugar beet
farm. After the second World War they were allowed to - soon thereafter, months after,
they - all Japanese Canadians were, sort of, free to return. But like many of them,
because they had lost all of their material possessions, they really were unable to
go anywhere. So the war - the war really lingered with my grandparents right up until
1948. So they didn't leave Taber, having been moved out to Taber in '43. The war sort
of just continued on, it was really a war of poverty as well as a war of racism and
the racist policy that took them out there. I said it was a racist policy because
the facts on the ground, the military facts on the ground - and this is from my own
research, not listening to my grandparents about this fact, because they actually
never spoke about this fact. But in reviewing historical documents, it was the RCMP,
it was the Navy, it was the heads of the military, in a Senate hearing stating factually
that there is no Japanese threat, either internal or external. The Battle of Midway
in 1942 decimated the Japanese Navy. So unless the Japanese Imperial Navy was coming
over in rowboats, there was really no possible platform by which Japanese forces could
attack North America. And that's what the military brass said. The RCMP - even though
all radios were confiscated, all forms of communication were confiscated and all forms
of physical communication were dramatically impeded - by way of curfews, by way of
not being able to congregate over a certain amount of people. Even though all those
things took place, or all of those things took place, even though the RCMP said there
was no internal Japanese threat - and I think the statistics in terms of actual arrests
certainly speak to that. So this war on poverty, or what started as a racial policy
- after the Battle of Midway, even after the Battle of Midway - this policy still
continued in Japanese folks were moved at least one hundred miles off the coast. My
grandparents, because my grandfather and grandmother were married, they were able,
quote unquote able, quote unquote lucky Mark makes the quote signs in the air - in fact, what was shocking is that they actually felt lucky about this in the sense
that they got to stay together as a family. So they moved to Taber, or we move to
Taber rather and lived on a series of farms where they worked under really grueling
conditions for really no money at all. It was essentially slave labor. They were paid
but it was essentially slave labor in a series of structures I guess we call home.
00:05:03.000
MS
00:10:30.000I think the third home, the third family farm home was an actual home. The first home,
quote on quote home Mark makes the quote signs in the air was a modified chicken coop. I think that was quite common. Most farmers would have
migrants in the summer. So they had summer homes, slash, on the back of a chicken
coop where migrant workers would work in the summer. So these were not insulated.
There was slots in between the walls and my grandma could see right through. This
was a dramatic - my grandparents were second generation Canadians. Both were born
in Vancouver, in BC. my great-grandfather being one of the men in the first waves
to come over primarily as fishermen. My great-grandfather was actually quite a skilled
fisherman and quite entrepreneurial. He managed to receive two licenses. Salmon fishing
in the summer the other cod fishing in the winter that required a bigger boat. But
because you have the two licenses he could fish year round and make a lot more money
for his family. And therefore required two boats and purchased two boats. And he was
quite a - Yosuke was his name - and he was quite a - and now I am talking about my
maternal great-grandfather, my grandmother's father. He was very, for the 30s, the
20s and 30s - my grandmother was born in 1920 and had four siblings. He was very progressive.
My grandmother's sisters received post secondary educations. The youngest whose education
was stopped during the internment actually went on and received her Ph.D. So very
highly educated people from a background of not extravagant wealth, but wealth. Two
fishing boats, waterfront property, living a very vibrant, dual life in Vancouver
in the sense that they were integrated into the Canadian education system, but also
after public school would come home and do another 2 hours of Japanese classes, and
it was very integrated into the Steveston Japanese Canadian community. So very rich
vibrant life that had a lot of - luxury is not the right word - but was accustomed
to a middle-class lifestyle. So losing everything and being sent on a train into -
it might have as well been Mars - was a very traumatic experience for them to go through.
They then moved and we can unpack that a little bit as well, but just to sort of take
you further into how I got here - my grandparents moved to Medicine Hat. They had
never farmed a day in their life outside of the sugar beet farm, but that was the
one thing they thought, maybe we'll make a go of farming. Jobs were a little bit hard
to come by for Japanese Canadians. Most mayors has said publicly
“Japs aren't allowed”. These where editorial comments in most of western Canada. The sentiment was, essentially, it's time to go home. Go back to BC, and in fact old Japanese Canadians nearly dodged being sent right back to Japan after the Second World War, which is just incredible to think about. These are Canadian citizens being sent back as - after two atomic bombs had just been dropped on a country, and the economy was ruined. It's almost unfathomable to think about, but it almost happened. So they moved to Medicine Hat and started farming. Fortunately after a couple of years of farming leased land, there was a banker at the Bank of Nova Scotia who had spent a lot of his career banking in BC and had lent a lot of money to Japanese Canadians, primarily so they could get a license and a boat, but only had good dealings with Japanese Canadians in BC.
00:10:30.000
MS
00:15:01.000He moved to Medicine Hat and although my grandparents had absolutely no money, he
lent them enough - a couple of families enough to scrape together and buy some of
their own land. And so my grandparents farmed in Medicine Hat, just outside of Medicine
Hat for the rest of their careers. My father was the first Japanese Canadian born
in Medicine Hat, Alberta. My dad stayed in Medicine Hat, married a gal who lived in
Calgary whose father - this is sort of a sidetrack, but this is why I know so much
about this - whose father joined the war effort, wanted to go fight in Europe, was
sent to Hong Kong. And of course Hong Kong fell soon after Pearl Harbor as that was
part of a broader Japanese Imperial Army campaign that stretched throughout the Philippines
and all the way to Hong Kong. He was captured, as all Canadian Forces were during
the fall of Hong Kong. If they weren't killed they were captured and he spent the
balance of the war as a Japanese POW. So that's an interesting side twist. But my
father Stan Sakamoto grew up in Medicine Hat and stayed in Medicine Hat as an entrepreneur.
And so I was born in Medicine Hat. After law school I had an opportunity to write
a book about my grandparents' experience - both sides of my family' experiences, it's
called Forgiveness. So that's how I came to know much more about my grandparents'
experience. I'd save growing up - and I now live in Toronto, Canada - I'd say growing
up, because I was fascinated with history I did probe quite a bit, and asked, spoke
to my grandparents about the war years. I'm sure if you've done one interview, you've
heard this, and I know you've done more so I'm sure you've heard this a lot. My grandparents
were reluctant to talk about the war years. I think that's twofold. One, there's a
universal Japanese sentiment around anything tragic that happens. But certainly this
where there is so much out of your control, 'shigatiganay' is what you hear a lot.
While there are a couple of translations, at its core it means it cannot be helped,
so don't dwell on it. So my grandmother would tell me a little bit about what happened.
I knew the skeleton of it. I didn't know the guts of it, the details before writing
the book. It would always end on a cup of tea and 'shigatiganay'. I actually had quite
a difficult time with that saying for a long time. I thought it was a weak response.
I thought it was 'there's nothing we can do so let's just sort of, take the kicks
and be polite about it'. as I came to unpack the story more, it dawned on me that
it was actually a strength. It's a strength to be able to pivot and to say,
“You know what, I'm not going to let”- it's easy to harbor and trade in anger and frustration and resentment. It's much harder, particularly, during that time when they did it, when there was still a lot anti Japanese sentiment. There was still a lot of racism. Both from a personal perspective in these very white towns throughout western Canada and elsewhere.
00:15:01.000
MS
00:20:05.000And from a systemic level, a government level in terms of no apology for a long time
- not until Mulroney in the 80s. Certainly no meaning for financial compensation.
I think my grandparents received - actually not I think - they received $25.16 and
I think that that is quite common. That's two boats, a house. Their entire life possessions
on a piece of paper. When my grandpa saw the bill he thought for sure it was a mistake
and had to go into Lethbridge to validate the claim within a court. What a juxtaposition
to be in a Canadian Court were you are, where the scales of justice are blazed on
the front door, and you are there essentially acquiescing to the robbing of your entire
life's possession. and to do it because you need the fucking $25.16. That's just terrible.
Anyway, so they would not say too much about it because there was almost a philosophy
around it. What are going to do, you needed the money, you got the money and things
are okay now, they are better now. They live the life of not extreme poverty at all,
but they were always very conscious of their spending. So I think there is a I don't
think philosophical is the right word to use, but I'm sure it's a universal theme
on that front. The other thing is just straight up fear. They didn't want to talk,
and this is crazy too, when I was talking to my grandparents about this I was talking
to them in the 90s, I'm a teenager talking to them about this particularly my grandmother.
My grandfather was born in Canada, but he went back to Japan and was educated in Japan
and then spend a lot of time in the lumber camps of BC - late teens, graduated when
he was 18. So 18 to like 24 or something like that, while he was still in Canada,
you know very much in a Japanese culture, speaking Japanese. So he was very, he was
sort of, quite a scholarly man. His English was never very good, it was always very
broken English. So I would communicate mostly with my grandmother. And so in the 90s
when I was talking to her about it, and her experiences, she would always be very
reticent for me - she would tell me things, but she was always very reticent for me
to tell other people things. And I think when you go through something like this,
because their life seemed so secure in the 30s, even though from an economic point
of view there was the Great Depression, they were really insulated from that. They
were fishing, and you know there was always anti-Japanese and anti-Chinese sentiment.
But my grandma grew up living a really great childhood and things seemed secure. The
fish loads would come in, and she was going to school and enjoying her Canadian classes,
and then enjoying her Japanese classes. Life was good. And it all changed like that
Mark snaps his fingers. And so I think they lived the rest of their lives, not in imminent threat of it
happening again, but knowing that it can, changes the way that you think about things.
Even though Medicine Hat in the 90s was a great place for me to grow up and all that
stuff, I think she was always in the back of her mind and retelling the story, cognizant
of us not being seen as whiners or dwelling on it. One, because she didn't want us
to be seen as whiners, but I think she also - didn't want you know - to be complicit
in a subsequent rise of racism in a way.
00:20:05.000
MS
Both the personal stuff that you get, or the government - the macro racist policy.
They would talk about the general path, in broad generalities, but she never got into
the details until I signed the book deal with Harper Collins in 2011 - which really
made, my grandmother was still alive thank goodness. She was 93 when we started doing
interviews just like this. And those were some of the most sacred nights of my life,
talking to her about - really getting into the details of those injurious years. And
you know, that's where the cliché the devil is in the details really came to life.
They were subjected to what was, certainly one of the most destructive policies that
the federal government has ever committed. The one thing I would say, particularly
in 2015 - that is of significance today, is that racism always comes wrapped in the
flag. It always does. You never get to a grand policy, like moving thousands of people
hundreds of miles and taking all of their possessions - and arresting their lives.
It never starts there. It always starts in smaller - always the beginning steps are
almost imperceptible. But it escalates, and it escalates, and fear feeds fear, and
resentment feeds resentment. And then you get on a path where doing something as horrific
as what was done seems like a natural progression. It seems like almost fucking logical.
And it's sold as something that is logical. That is a warning that - if there is one
thing that my grandparents would warn, it is that. I've dropped two f-bombs in this
so far. I apologize for that.
Alex and Mark laugh
AP
No problem.
Alex and Mark laugh
AP
I'm wondering - you mentioned, they had a house and two boats. Do you know the name
of the boats by any chance? Where the house was? Any of that?
MS
It was outside of a cannery.
AP
In Steveston?
MS
Yeah, just outside, exactly. And the boat names, I actually don't know. I have your
email address?
AP
Yup.
MS
I can - I'll take a look and see if I can find that.
AP
Sure. Have you ever visited that area?
MS
00:25:05.000Yeah, yeah, I did. In fact, both areas. I walked - Steveston actually has a wonderful
path that actually has a couple of the homes. Where my grandma lived is not the same
anymore, so it is not as accessible. But I have walked through there, I still have
a lot of family, and some of my grandmother's siblings were able to move back to Richmond
and the surrounding areas. So I do have a lot of family in Steveston. So I actually
spend a considerable amount of time there. But I was also able to visit the first
site that my grandmother and grandfather lived in, in Alberta. It's not standing anymore
but you can see the structure. And that was I think even more moving because it hasn't
changed that much, it's still a bald, cold, desolate place.
00:25:05.000
MS
And you can imagine - the wind sounds the same, the cold air feels the same, and you
really - I got a much better sense as to how alienating the land was for her. You
can even still see it. I mean she'd lived in Southern Alberta for the rest of her
life. I think I visited a specific location with her in '89, or something like that,
and I just remember her, even though only a couple miles down the road from where
she currently lived, it was so far away. It took her back, just immediately. And it
felt like when she landed, when she got off the train in Lethbridge and got on to
this - the back of this farmers truck and got out into the middle of this field, she
felt like she was on Mars, and she might as well have been on Mars, right? They could
only bring - It's not like they could bring a lot, it's not like they had a lot to
bring anyway, but even on top of having most of their possessions stripped from them,
you could only bring a certain amount of weight with you. So they were forced to make
these terrible decisions, like - because they didn't know where they were going, and
what the conditions would be like - so they were forced to make these decisions, like
do we bring the family kimono, do we bring our wedding pictures. or do we bring rice?
Or do we bring water? This is literally what most people did. I still have, actually
- my grandfather, Hideo Sakomoto, was a total pack-rat. And if it wasn't for my grandma,
he would have been a hoarder. He kept just everything. And so after he died, he lived
to be 95 in Medicine Hat, he passed away when he was 95, no sorry, 96. And we cleaned
out the garage. And his garage was just packed to the rafters. And at the very back
of the garage, probably because it was one of the first things that was put in the
garage - in 1952 when he moved into the house - was a tea box. A big tea box about
2 feet by 3 feet. And I actually brought it, shipped it to Toronto and took it to
the ROM and cleaned up and fixed up as best they could. But it was tinned. This tea
box was tinned because of the small amount of weight that they could bring, they brought
a tinned box of rice. It was literally about a quarter of the weight that they could
carry. And it was just food, the basic staple of their life. And thank goodness that
they did because for the first winter they did not have a lot of food. So --
AP
Do you still have that box?
MS
00:30:02.000I do, yeah. It's featured prominently in my house. For me - it's actually the cover
of my book -it's an actual picture of the box. For me it's such a wonderful and terrible
reminder of the sacrifices that they made during that period. The sacrifices that
they were forced into, the dilemmas they were forced into. We don't think about it
in today's world because our family photo albums are digital, they are in the cloud
somewhere. They were forced to choose between the sentimentality of their life. And
that was our Canadian government that did that. And that was our government that was
going to war to fight that very same terrible sentiment. And it was happening to Japanese,
to Canadians. Not - you know, folks that were born in this country, as their countrymen.
00:30:02.000
MS
So it's for me, I kept it because, it shows what they're made of and how they could
survive and how strong they were. And how this box is strong too. It's still around,
and it can still serve its purpose. There's that in it for me. But it's also kind
of getting back to that warning. That kind of -- that things can move quickly. And
so only the thing that we as Canadians can do, and what you and Landscapes of Injustice
is doing very well, is not remembering for the sake of remembering. I remember many
things that are meaningless - what the A-Team van looks like. A whole bunch of things.
Who cares? But remembering with a vigilance. Remembering with an eye to the future
as much as it is to the past. In today's world, even though we are one of the finest
countries in the world - we were one of the finest countries in the world in 1943.
We were the good guys in 1943. But even good guys can do bad things and even good
guys can make mistakes. But the big mistakes never happen as a one-off. It's never
a tripping into a massive mistake. You make 19 small mistakes first. And so we as
Canadians need to be very vigilant, that, that first mistake, when it is talked about,
if it is talked about, it is seen for what it is. And I do worry about that today.
I worry about it a little less, but you know the world right now is - if you were
a Muslim Canadian and you were picking up the Globe and Mail or any, you know, newspaper
across the country, and certainly watching American television, or reading a French
or a British, or Danish newspaper - you are very concerned. And you should be, and
we all should be. So these are the kinds of lessons from the past that particularly
today, where there is a group of folks that are being put into one sort of big bucket,
by some folks. We need to be vigilant, and we need to look to our past. So I wish
you guys the best of luck in doing what you are doing.
AP
I know you are pressed for time, so perhaps, that might be a sentiment that you might
want to end on? Unless, you want to keep speaking.
MS
00:35:01.000That's fine. I would - I mean I think that's what I came to with my book, was really
that it's this notion that there is no point of knowing the past if you aren't looking
to the future as well. And my grandparents in their lives we're able to take those
injurious years and not dwell on them. And appreciate at least that it made them stronger.
But certainly refused to pass on those transgressions to their children, and their
children grew up loving this country as their grandchildren certainly do. Loving the
country in an authentic and knowledgeable way. I know like just any person, nobody
is perfect. You don't expect that. This country, although I do believe it is the finest
country in the world, and the most compassionate country in the world, it has made
mistakes and it can certainly make mistakes in the future. So those folks that are
knowledgeable about the mistakes that have been made, should be the first to stand
up and say 'I've seen this before. I know where it can lead.' So being vigilant about
those first small mistakes that a country can make, I think is very, very important.
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Title
Mark Sakamoto, interviewed by Alexander Pekic, 18 December 2015
Abstract
Mark speaks about his grandparents' dispossession and experience of being sent to work
on a farm in Taber, Alberta following their removal from Steveston, and his family
eventually settling in Medicine Hat. He also discusses his coming to know of their
story and its meaning to him personally, as well as his feelings about what their
story means to society more broadly.
This oral history is from an interview conducted by the Oral History cluster of the
Landscapes of Injustice project.
Credits
Interviewer: Alexander Pekic
Interviewee: Mark Sakamoto
Transcriber: LOI Oral History Cluster
XML Encoder: Stewart Arneil
Publication Information: See Terms of Use for publication and licensing information.
Setting:
Mark Sakamoto's Office, Toronto, ON
Keywords: Medicine Hat;
Taber
;
Steveston
;
Vancouver
;
Lethbridge
;
Toronto
; fishing; racism; farming; grandparents;
1920s-present
Terminology
Readers of these historical materials will encounter derogatory references to Japanese
Canadians and euphemisms used to obscure the intent and impacts of the internment
and dispossession. While these are important realities of the history, the Landscapes
of Injustice Research Collective urges users to carefully consider their own terminological
choices in writing and speaking about this topic today as we confront past injustice.
See our statement on terminology, and related sources here.