Mary Asako Seki, interviewed by Tatsuo Kage, 24 July 1990

This is interview of Mary Seki , July 24, 1990. Recording stops, then begins again. Tatsuo sets up the recording device. This should be fairly close to you. Your, where is the microphone? Oh yeah okay.

We should put it in between you and me.

Oh, that's okay, mine I can hear easily. So, you are born-

In Vancouver , Canada , B.C.

And, your father, what kind of job did he have at that time?

Since he came-first came to Canada, or in 1946?

1930 or around that time. What was his major job?

When the war started?

Yeah.

Okay, in 1940 he was-he had a hotel business, Strathcona Hotel. At 53 West Hastings Street.

Pause as Tatsuo writes notes. Do you have sisters and brothers?

Oh yes, I have-in total my father and mother had 8 children-

Okay-

And 2 daughters was raised by my grandmother in Japan . Tatsuo repeats what Mary has just told him as he takes notes. And then, 4 boys and 2 girls, including myself, in Canada .

4 boys and 2 girls?

Girls, yes. Would you like their names?

Tatsuo hums as he thinks. Not now.

Alright.

So, do you have any other relations in Canada?

Yes, there's my father's brother's wife and family. Pause In Toronto . Their name is called Tsuji.

Oh yeah. What's your father's-maybe I should get your father's name.

Okay, my father's name is Kihei Mary begins to spell out the name K...i...h...

Tatsuo mumbles: Kihei Otsuji. And somebody who is a realtor, is that your brother?

Yes, my brother, his name is-his name is now, it's Gord Masao Ohtsji , and he spells his last name O-H-T-S-J-I.

So, you are born in Vancouver , and then where did you go-

Mary tries to finish Tatsuo's question to school?

During the war? Or yeah, during the war?

Oh, we were uprooted to Southern Alberta called Raymond , in April 1942. Long pause. My father wanted to keep the family together, that's why he thought it's best to go to the sugar beets farm.

Where is Raymond?

It's Southern Alberta, South of Lethbridge ...oh gee, I don't know how far. It's near Lethbridge.

Near Lethbridge.

Uh-huh.

And how long-how long did you stay in Raymond ?

Okay, in Raymond we were there until, I think it was 1944, and then we moved to Coaldale , Alberta, I think-

Coaldale-is that...

C-O-A-L-D-A-L-E, I think we were there from 1945 to 1946. And from Coaldale we left for Japan in December 1946.

In Japan, where did you go?

Okay, we left Vancouver Christmas Eve, December 24th, 1946 Tatsuo chuckles that's why I remember, and we arrived in Japan a day before my birthday, it was January the 7th, 1947. At Yokosuka .

And where did you settle down?

Oh, okay, to make it a little bit clearer, in May 1941, my father and my brother-

May '41?

May 1941, my father and mother went to Japan.

Oh, I see. Father, mother...

To attend to one of my oldest sister's wedding. Her name is Mikako, and they took my second oldest brother Pause as Tatsuo takes notes. his name is Kiichi, Harry . Kiichi K-I-I-C-H-I, Harry, to Japanese schooling education.

Oh I see.

So, that is why-during the war my mother was in Japan, you see because my father returned November 1941.

November...

1941. Father returned. And then my mother was supposed to come back in December but war started so we were separated.

Oh, I see so, mother...is...

Stranded in Japan I guess.

Long pause. So father came-November he's still came.

At that time when he was in Japan , he heard at that time that maybe the boat might be stopping, so he had business, my oldest brother was only 18 or 19, my oldest brother, he’s the chounan, so my father was worried about the hotel business, so he came right away. Then, that's why we went to Raymond , Alberta . He had an old school-friend, called Nishimura, Mr. Frank Nishimura , he's now deceased, but we went to Alberta, and it was quite difficult because I was the oldest girl and I was only, what was it, 11? 12? And we work in sugar beet and then my father through Red Cross ? Told my mother that we're going to Japan, so to have food ready for us. So my mother had property, but she had to get some help to do the rice because in Japan-that's right, during the war, you have to use your-you have to farm your fields, yeah because the Japanese people need to eat. So, she heard that we're coming, so she was prepared for our return so she planted a lot of vegetables for us to come. So when we went to Japan, we were on the fortunate side, for the repats, you know? おかげさまでね (Thanks to her.). Long pause. And my father was told what is needed Tatsuo hums in agreement at that time, so he bought-

We were rationed here sugar, but we try not to use sugar while we're here Tatsuo chuckles and I remember about making our remarks to my dad I says well, he says, We should try to (?) this sugar so we can take it to Japan. I said well, I remember making remark said well, that...

So when your father came back and moved to Raymond , your sister-brother and sister, how many are there?

Okay my oldest brother Tom , John Akihide , and Gord Masao , and myself and my younger sister Shirley Kazumi . So there's 5 of us.

Still big family. Tatsuo chuckles.

Yes. Because there's two sisters in Japan and they took my brother.

Yeah, right. Okay so...

And my oldest brother went in between the sugar beets, he went to the North they call it, the Slave Lake ? To work.

Slave Lake, where is it?

In Northern Alberta I think. To work in the-I think in the logging camp. So, just-he would come back for like beets time-harvest time, and then rest of us, we would miss school and help in the sugar beets.

So your oldest brother was how old was he? Was he about 20 or?

Gee let's see, I was...

You were unclear .

So 1942 I became 12, so he's 9 years older than me Mary talks quietly If I'm 12, 9 years...

21.

Oh, he's 21 years old. Pause as Tatsuo takes notes. And the youngest one was 9, youngest sister was 9 years old. So there's the-let's see, so 9, and then brother's 11, Gord was 11 and I was 12, and then John Akihide they must have been 13 and our oldest brother is 21. See depending on a birthday, because my oldest brother-my second-one above me, his birthday's November, so in the spring he would still be one year older than me.

Oh I see. Okay, so let's see now. How was life in Vancouver and then in Raymond? How did things change? Of course your father has been learning business-

Yes.

I'm sure you were relatively well to do.

Yeah, so when my father-I remember, see he was in his forties and he was semi-retired. And doctor had told him to go golfing to enjoy life or take it easy. So, I remember my father was supposed to go golfing and we were all-we had a grocery store and we sold it and moved to the hotel, and for a while there we persevered and we were going to buy a house-residential home near Hastings Park , at that time it was nice area. And-but the war started so my father didn't buy a house. But he had a car, and he was quite upset because we had to move right away, right? The war started in December, we moved in April, we had no time really to sell the hotel business, or just practically give away the car, you know, everything? And so, I remember he was very upset, and he was-there was rumours among the Japanese people that we're going to all be separated-the father would be in a certain camp, the older would be taken certain place, and then the girls-me and my younger sister, would be someplace else, and the boys someplace...So he heard that we're going to be all separated, so he bought a small suitcase, this size suitcase for all of us, and he had katsuo (bonito), one on katsuo.

And he said, with this katsuo, you suck it, and if you got salt and water, you survive Both Mary and Tatsuo laugh . So he bought all that. So that's how much he was quite upset that, if we're all separated and he heard that, gee, we're not going to be fed maybe, because you know how you are prisoner of war-like. So, he was quite concerned so he-so and then, then he had an alternative that maybe he can go to Alberta, so that way he wanted to keep us together. That's why he wrote to his friend there and that's why we went. And when I was in my childhood in Vancouver, I was-I think we were kind of happy, carefree. And then when the war started, I remember we couldn't go out after six, so as soon as we go to Japanese school after English school, and we go to Japanese school for one hour and we have to hurry up and come home, be home by six, and then we had-they had to put blankets on the windows, blackouts. And then I remember going to English school, my teacher was Scottish. I think her name was Mrs. Scott. And we used to net for the-as they say, for the boys overseas. The scarves? The amimono (knit items)?

Tatsuo chuckles Oh, yes.

So that's when I learned to knit.

So, you are-the father's hotel, where did you say it...

It's right between, in downtown Vancouver Woodwards and Army Navy.

Oh yeah, so that's Hastings.

Right above Pier Pair Shoe Store. That's-I don't know if it's still there. At the time, that was the only foot specialist store. Yeah.

And then which school-where did you live? Where's your home? Did you live in the hotel?

Okay, first we were living-we had a grocery store in Georgia and Hawks Avenue called Royal Grocery, so we all lived behind the grocery store, and we were going to Strathcona school , and then my two brothers-youngest brother and a second brother was going to Seymour school because we lived on a border, and then when we moved to Strathcona, when we sold our grocery store, I think it was 1940, then we all lived at the hotel for awhile. And, persevered there for awhile, and then I went to pause my younger sister and my younger brother-4 of us, the 4 younger ones, went to school where it's now Vancouver Vocational Technical School, on Pender and Cambie. Well, there used to be an old school, one of the oldest schools I think-it was a first built school called Central School, so that's where we went. And then the war started.

Oh, so where you lived was around that area?

At that time, that hotel.

Hotel, okay. So how was your schooling in Raymond ?

Well, I remember I felt very self conscious because we were put back one year. My birthday being January, as a child your-you start late. And then when they put you back another year there, that's like almost like two years behind, but I was in grade 5, no, grade 6? I think grade 6.

Was it a regular school with White kids...?

Yes, yes, there wasn't room for us right away, or either that, they didn't let us go to that school right away, to Japanese people. And I think when they approved, it's a Mormon town, so I think when the city people approved accepting us into that school, they built their attic to accommodate some of us students.

So, do you have many-did you have many classmates, or other Japanese kids?

Yes, at that time, my classmate at that time was all Japanese I think who was-who went to-who uprooted to Raymond.

So, do you remember about how many people...?

There's a class full...

Class full?

Yeah, class full so... pause as Mary thinks I think initially we were just put in a class, and then after that they start putting us to-

Tatsuo tries to finish Mary's thought To different classes.

To where-like if you were in grade 6 they put you to grade 6, but I think at first they put us on the attic room I remember, and one teacher, and we were sitting with all-I think there must have been about 20 of us, maybe.

Ah, I see. But all different grades then?

Pause There was 5 and 6 in our class, so maybe it was just the two grades.

Oh I see, maybe there are the younger kids.

Yes, there should have been the younger kids but I don't remember now. All I remember was we were put in that attic room. Mary suddenly remembers Oh okay, yes, it would be just maybe 5 or 6 because I don't remember being with my brother and sisters.

Oh yeah, right.

So they would be probably room in the other-the regular class. Maybe because there wasn't enough for us that we were there, I think must have been grade 5 and 6. And then, we were put to regular classes.

Yeah. So how- (?) How was the life there? Sugar beets, when (?) season comes it must be quite a bit of work.

Yes. I remember as soon as we arrive, we were stayed at Mr. Nishimura 's, it was a shack that he emptied out his 小屋(shack), he had all his tools and horse things, so he emptied it out and we stayed there, and I remember we Mary chuckles as she remembers they made us-it was like a shack so one way it's all just bed like-so we all slept in the bed, and then there's a wood stove there, and I remember having hard time trying to burn the stove, and my father would wake me up around 4 o'clock in the morning to tell me to start the fire, and start making hot water so we can get up and go to work. But, I remember burning all the kindling, all the paper, and smoked the whole place, Mary laughs as she talks so he had to get up and start the fire. I think he showed me how but I just couldn't do it Tatsuo laughs and so I just kept putting the wood in because it's coal. It's hard to start the coal at that time.

Oh, yeah, right.

First you need a paper and then a kindling and a coal, but some were right I couldn't do it. I remember that part. And then, I remember-because I'm the oldest girl I guess they expect me to do all this things, and when I was in the hotel there, I didn't even do the dishes! I was just carefree child. Then all of a sudden, I have to do the dishes, I have to cook, I have to wash the boys underwear-those thick underwears, you know? The fleece underwears? Mary laughs. Get the water from the well and make fire-I was very unhappy (Mary laughs) because I had nobody to teach me, because my mother's in Japan, and the neighbour, the Nishimura's family, they had children-lot of children too, so she had-just had a baby so, they were busy with their own thing.

So Nishimura's family has been living there for awhile?

Yes, right. They were Albertans, right. So, I think-it's right after the pause Depression, that's why the farmers had a hard time. And Japanese families too, they weren't that well off, but at least they had the farm. And, as my father used to say, As long as you have a farm you can eat, because you can plant vegetables. So, I think when the sugar beet came in demand, then the farmer's start making money during the war. They contract how much they have to do. Like if you have so many acres, they have to do so much, and I remember the first year we went there, we had to help-we didn't go to school, we went and helped on the sugar beets. Like, thinning, first it's thinning, and then comes hoeing and weeding. So, I remember for a long while we didn't go to school, and I think in the fall we went to school, that's why we were one year behind.

Oh, I see.

Yeah, because April to September, and I think we went to school in October or after the harvest season.

Oh yeah.

So we practically missed, you know...

So how was the winter in...

Oh, it was cold. The house was just like a shack だから (so a) single thing, and it was very cold. And then they-I remember they brought another old shack so that we could cook and eat like a kitchen there.

So we were-we go there and eat, but I remember when we wash and hang our clothes, it used to freeze and the clothes would be stiff on the clothesline. Yeah. So, it was-to me it was very difficult, and my father, all of us-we'd never been on a farm before. My father knew some because he grew up on this land in Japan, so he sort of knew what they have to do. Although he came here as a youngster, about 18 or 19.

I see.

Then after that, we moved to-we-snow, we used to call it Snow farm, Mr. Snow was the mayor of Raymond , and he was a Mormon, and he was quite-nice family, so we lived on his farm and it was 5 miles out of town. So we had to walk certain distance and then catch the bus. And then he also built a house for us, it was more like-it's not like Mary struggles to explain the frame, you know, it's like a house, shack-like but it was nicer.

I see. Tatsuo and Mary laugh.

Wood floor, and I remember mopping the floor you'd get slivers, when you mop the floor it's wooden floor. And, we stayed there for awhile, and we did sugar beet, and we-I remember my father being a Buddhist, we always went to the Buddhist church.

Raymond has a (?).

Right, yes, it was Reverend Ikuta at the time.

Oh. Must be Father Mas Ikuta ?

Yes, right. Yes. And I remember Makita? Was it? Mak anyway. Mak and his brothers and Susumu, Reverend Susumu Ikuta is now, he was a minister at one time, I believe he's doing business now? I don't know whether if he's still a minister, but there are very-they did well in school so, yeah.

Okay. How many people are involved in these church? Do you remember?

Oh, there was a lot. There were people from the former Albertans, that why there was a church there. And, oh, there seemed to be a lot. I don't know how many people. There must have been a hundred? Or maybe more? When everybody-this is quite a bit, more than a hundred I think. But regularly I used to go, there must have been about 30 or more children. Sunday school.

Oh, is that right?

Yeah, yeah.

So, do you-since you came from Vancouver what you see, how people get along with each other, people who had been there already for quite a few years or...other Japanese, did you get along well or did they help you, or...?

Yes, I remember meeting some Albertans, yes, going to school together. Yes, they were okay, this is Japanese Albertans, and then the Canadian Albertans, they were Mormons. At first, you know how it is, it usually is just going in to-you see as a youngster, usually we used to speak Japanese at home, right, to our parents, and then we had to go to Japanese school so, there's not really too much time but if we have time we'll play with the neighbourhood children. So that's the only time and going to English school we meet the other nationalities. Well there we a lot of Italians and Hungarians and other in that area, so our most association would be more or less Japanese.

What's the Mormons like? Are they from-I have no idea, but where they're originally from?

Yes I think a lot of them originally came from Utah , Salt Lake City ?

Oh, I see.

See that's where the-sort of originated. And-but they were good people, but I felt there's still that difference between the White people and the Japanese, you don't really feel-there's still that little Tatsuo hums in agreement like today, some people would say, when you go to church, sometime, there's still the old Anglo Saxon group, they still have that-this sort of have that little, some people say they stare down at you, when you talk to them.

When you were at school at that time, since you mentioned that you are at Japanese school and speaking Japanese at home, how did you get along with English school? Do you-do you think you are okay or do you have some disadvantage from English school?

I think when I went to school, I remember as a child, I think we spoke English with our neighbour, children, around children. So we spoke bad language, like the English wasn't as proper. It would be like immigrant's English because around the area is all formally immigrant parents, and their children, and so when I went to school, I remember my brother took me, my oldest brother took me, and there was all sorts of course. I think I had a difficulty in English, because the English you read is different from the English that we're speaking. The immigrant's English. And so, but I remember yes, I remember that's my grade 1. I remember how it was, that I was having difficulty in English, and spelling, but later on I start picking up other things, but I think English was sort of difficult for me. So, to this day, my English is not very good. Mary and Tatsuo laugh.

Oh well, that's just Mary and Tatsuo continue laughing.

Well, along the way, I missed the phonics, or the groundwork of the English, so I thought, Well someday, I'm going to go to school and learn it. So when I came back to Vancouver , I did go to tutor, try to learn a few but it's, yeah. Learn certain part.

But do you think that's a common experience or common feeling among Niseis?

I think so, I think so. Because as you notice with our redress, a lot of the Niseis were not very-we don't speak up very much because one, we're not very articulate, and perhaps-and then our parents taught us that you shouldn't talk back, and so you have to be behaved all the time, and don't talk until you're spoken sort of thing. So we sort of hesitate, speaking. There are odd ones that do, but I think, as you notice, many of the Nesseis didn't start anything because, maybe because of their lack of speaking? Articulate? There might be some educated ones too, but I don't know whether-because with the young people like Roy Miki and all that bunch, they really, Sansei has really started. And then we couldn't help fill in with our experiences, but they took the lead.

That's interesting.

Yes.

So when the-do you remember-in your case, it's a bit different from most people because your mother is-was already in Japan right? So, when you have a chance to repatriate to Japan , was it-there's no difficulty of deciding to go back after war.

Well, I remember there were a time we were in Alberta , now as through the redress movement I learned that there was a certain time but I can't remember exactly. But there was time after, I think it was in the '50s? Beeping in the background Is that?

No no, it's my watch.

That they came-we were asked-all the Japanese Canadians were asked that they have to go out East or go to Japan , and that you repatriate. So at that time my father had no intentions, says, no, he's not going to sign up to go. And then, later on, as repatriation started, and last repatriation, last boat, my dad thought, Gee, at this right, there might be another war with Russia , yeah, he thought maybe another war with Russia. He felt the mood was in-he says then the family will never be together. And he inherited that land so he felt responsible to go back and look after the land there, you see. So he thought well, since mother was there, if she wasn't there maybe it would have been different. But so, he thought we don't know when we can go and be a whole family either here of there. So then he thought well, we better take the last repatriation boat. So in our case, that's what he did.

So you are-younger people like yourself or you brothers, you didn't have much say or you...?

No, I didn't want to go. I was 16 I think.

You didn't want to go?

I didn't want to go. I said to my dad I want to stay here and finish high school. Tatsuo laughs I don't want to go to Japan! And we all said that but we had no choice. But my one brother, Akihide John , the one that's in the history book of your democracy betray? In Ken Adachi 's book?

Oh yeah.

He just passed away in 1988, well, he's the only one that says he's not going to go, he says, why do you want to go there when-everything is hard an all that, and he says, I'm going back to Vancouver , and we told him, well you can't, we aren't allowed to! And he says, I'm a Canadian and the war is over, he says, No one's going to stop me. Being a youngster, he doesn't know the rules and regulations, so he went that's fine. According to that he was picked up and thrown into jail. So that was the start of his misfortunes. His life. But he had big ideas, he's going to be someone great one day. He was-I think he was sort of advanced for his age, for 日本人 (a Japanese). For Japanese, he was, he thought of himself like a hakujin I guess. He just-wanted to be someone great someday but unfortunately, he didn't have the guidance, he didn't have the opportunity of whatever. So with a little child's mind, you're still thinking, because he was about 12, 12 or 13 when he left Vancouver. So all he's thinking about is going back to the area he lived, and he looked up his brother-his friends.

So around that time he must have been around 18 or so right?

Yes. Mary talks with a solemn tone He was 17, I was 18. Yeah, 17. So, and then he left home and says well, he didn't want to be doing sugar beets, he's going to be someone, he's going to look for good fortune. He left home, and then he can back around November, and he said you can't get any jobs now because the canneries are closed, the vegetable canneries are in season in the summer, but around November there's nothing. And he's only about what, 17? So, there's nothing he's got no vocation, no trade, no nothing, so he says well he'd like to come to Japan with us because there's nothing for him. But my dad says he can't come, because we have to go through a lot of red tape, and he had to get his inoculation. So, unfortunately we had to leave him. We left him.

Oh, I see.

Yeah.

So he was around the Vancouver at that time?

No, we left him in Coaldale , Alberta . He took off on his own when we told him he can't come.

But he went to Vancouver to look for a job?

I think he came back in 1948. 1948 he came to Vancouver. According to the-when he got picked up. Maybe he came soon after, but he didn't get picked up, because he was under a Chinese name.

Oh, I see.

Somebody in his friend circle must have told some police or somebody that he's Japanese because how would they know otherwise. And so he was-so rest is, I just know what Ken Adachi wrote down. And so, I did see him afterwards when I came back. But anyway, it wasn't very-well, it wasn't very nice though, because our-we were uprooted and we're not secured. The life is not secured. You're somebody's farm. You're working under somebody, and you don't know-it's like a contract thing, this summer here, and thing, and then-and my dad he was very upset and I think he's always catching this cold so he wasn't very-didn't seem like he was too healthy at the time. And so rest of us would have to try to work and all of us we try to work in a field, and then we go back to school.

Yeah that must have been quite a lot of responsibilities for your father.

Right. And it, affects all of us, right, because... Mary's sentence trails off

And how about your-you mentioned earlier that you had to do all kind of cooking and things, it must have been quite hard too.

Yes, because I didn't know how to cook and there was no woman to teach me, but my dad would try to show me what he knows. But, so I remember we lived on, in Alberta, at the time- Mary laughs my cooking is frying potatoes, bacon and potatoes and fry it, and then 味噌汁 (miso soup). So I remember it was a lot of 味噌汁 (miso soup) but my father likes to do 煮た物 (simmered dish), bowl-I call it Japanese stew. And none of us liked it, like daikon. In Alberta you can get daikon, carrots and potatoes, and we just didn't like it. Maybe at beginning we liked it but after that we didn't want to eat it. So, I'd rather eat fried potato Mary laughs . So kids would rather have fried potatoes, and I remember he would buy-my older brother would buy big chunk of bologna, and so we used to like to eat bologna and fried potatoes. I didn't know anything else how to cook, right? Because the kind of meat he-my dad used to buy for sukiyaki, it was hard. Tough. So maybe, I don't know, maybe he didn't know the difference and he bought maybe cheaper grade or something, thinking oh, that looks nice and red, like those, boiling meat it looks nice, but he doesn't know that it's a tough one. So when we used to eat sukiyaki we didn't like it because the meat is tough. So we didn't know, and it was quite upsetting that cooking was usually-eating the same thing.

How about other boys, did they help you?

Well, my brother Aki , he did used to kind of help, but they're all working in field, you see, so I get stuck doing it. But I remember going to the field and coming home to cook, and then we have to peel potatoes for next day.

Oh.

Yeah, I think I remember peeling something like half a bucket a day Mary chuckles because big family, right? Growing, growing. And then naturally my father would buy case of orange, case of apple, so we'll have fruits, but we didn't know how to cook meat that much. And, because I think my dad didn't know how to do too much meat stuff, come from Japan it's mostly 野菜物(vegetables) or seafood. So he didn't know too much about cooking meat either except sukiyaki, so, yeah. Mary and Tatsuo chuckle. But we survive because I guess we drank milk and fruits, and like cereal, and my father knew how to cook Mush, oatmeal,

Is it oatmeal? That we ate. So, I suppose it was healthy that way, but we used to-I remember cooking parsnip with potato and bacon together, or cabbage-we didn't like boiled cabbage, we used to like it fried, so I think a lot of it would be fried food. Because we don't like boiled stuff. I didn't like onions at that time, so, yeah. I think when we're kids we don't like onion and carrots.

Is that right?

Yeah.

Tatsuo's comment gets drowned out by a plane flying overhead.

Well see this is unknown to other people-other families, this is just our own internal because mother's not there, you see. And we were-we're not the type to tell people our problems, we kept it to ourselves. Like, my dad used to say, 恥かかしたら(if you bring shame) you know? You don't bring shame to the family.

Yeah, that's right.

So usually when you don't bring shame to family Recording becomes static and fuzzy Recording cuts out

And 人に迷惑かけたら(Do not trouble other people), so we never asked for help. We just do what we can ourselves.

Right. How about the amount of food? Do you think at that time you can easily get what you need or...?

No, we had to-well, at first we had to depend on our-the farm-the people where we lived. When they go to town, then my dad would buy this and this at this store. But then later on they bought a car, so I think then they used to go and buy-I don't know, it's my brother, my oldest brother and my father would go grocery shopping. So, it was rationed during the war, like sugar beet rationed, and things like that, but they would buy in bulk, like a big slab of bacon or, big box of fruits or whatever because living out on the farm so I remember. So I think it must have been quite costly for my dad despite the kind of food we ate because we're growing children, and we take lunch to school, and...

Oh yeah. But, money wise, because (?).

Yes. Well, I think we were still, we were supposed to just take so much weight, or so much baggage, from Vancouver , and I think you're supposed to just take so money, you're not supposed to have more.

Oh is that right.

But I think they put some inside here, they took it, and that 's what helped because you had to-at first you have to have your own money to buy the everything right? Until you worked the field and then harvest time, then you get some money, but it wasn't that much at first. And so, my brother went out working on somebody's farm, oldest brother, I remember he went out. So the second-the next brother above me, John Akihide , he was very good worker in the sugar beet field. He was fast and good. And my younger brother was fast and good. But I guess I was sort of pokey because I didn't like to do it Both Mary and Tatsuo laugh . You know? So the rest of us sort of, and but we tried to do what we can.

So, going to a time when you moved to Japan , was-you mentioned that you didn't like to go but, was it a kind of excitement? Or anxiety? What did you expect at that time?

No, in my case, I didn't want to go, but I remember on the ship we got to meet other people on the ship. I remember we had to-we came to Vancouver and stayed at the immigration building I think maybe about 10 days or something before we go? Maybe longer? And my dad got a real bad cold and he was really sick in the immigration building, and I remember all of us would have a pass to go to downtown but my dad didn't want me to go so I had to be with my dad a lot of time.

Oh, I see.

And, but when I did go-matter of fact I have some picture. My sister and I-we went to walk Vancouver town and I don't know how these non-Japanese or Caucasian people can tell we're Japanese or Chinese, because when we went past downtown, there's some-lot of hakujin would look at us and spit at us. He says, Oh, you dirty Jap, and then they'll spit at us.

In a disappointed tone Oh.

And I was thinking how can they tell that I'm not Chinese. So, but anyway I remember going to a movie, at that time, what was it? Mary tries to recall Was it Jungle Book? Jungle Book I think, yeah. And then I tried-I went to our hotel to see if we can get a picture of my mother and dad-a big round wedding picture この、こういう concord glassでね (in a concord glass like this).

Oh.

Yeah, 日本の(from Japan). Picture there. So I thought, at least we should go and get that, so we went to hotel. When we left, you see, my dad, on a top floor in the corner, one room, he put all his stuff there.

Oh, I see.

And he says, Oh, すぐ戻って来る (We’ll be back in no time.).

There was rumour that within a year or two the war would be over, we'll be back. So when we went there there was nothing, they said that the previous owner had put away all the stuff. So, pause , so that was one of the disappointments we had when we went to our hotel to get some stuff. They didn't have it. And so when we went to Japan, it was right after the war so there was a lot of-even in Yokosuka and all that, it's all like doing a lot of the bustling thing, everybody. I remember lining up and there's American Army person, we line up just like a Mary chuckles prisoner of war, and then we have to go on-they put DDT all over us.

In a disappointed tone Oh yeah.

Go through all that? Mary chuckles And then my brother came to meet us, the one that went to Japan, Kiichi ? He came to meet us, he was working at Yokosuka .

Oh is that right?

For the American Army. So he came to meet us, and he quit his job, and he came back to Shiga-ken with us.

Oh yeah. That must have been very (?).

Yes, well I think he was looking forward to seeing us so...and I remember coming on a train from Yokosuka to Shiga-ken , that was so full, like packed sardines.

Oh yeah, okay.

And I remember, at that time there was a repatriate, from 満州, Manchuria . And therefore, I remember this Japanese lady saying, getting after another 日本の人(Japanese person from Japan), telling to Mary imitates yelling You stand up! この人達アメリカから引き揚げて帰って来てるのに(These people just came back from the Americas). Give them the seat. You sit down. So, that Japanese man stood up and gave me a seat, because I guess I looked tired, and you can't move, your back is itchy, you're going to stay like this right? You can't move. But she was very nice, she said, ここには満州から引き揚げた人もあったね(There also people who repatriated from Manchuria here). So they say, 引き揚げ者迷惑だからchairあげえなさい(Give the seats to the repatriats.

そうなんですか。(Is that right.)

Yeah, so I thought, well, some of them they just look at us as if Mary laughs as if you're, what is it? I suppose like when the boat people come some people are not too happy to see them, or some people are sympathetic.

Yeah, right. So how did you find the Japanese people in general?

Well, when I first went, I was disappointed, because the Japanese people I knew here, I could tell, recognized Japanese from Chinese. When I'm in Japan, they all look like to me, gee a lot of them look like Chinese both Mary and Tatsuo laugh . You know? ‘Cause they had this kind of hat, and at that time it was right after the war, so everyone wasn't dressed that nice, right?

No.

So, I was kind of disappointed, they didn't have that kind of manners, everybody was not very well mannered. あの時 right after war だから (Because it was right after the war.). But odd people, like that lady was nice. And, everybody on that train, they were doing black market, they're throwing rice out the train and somebody outside catching. So I think it was just topsy turvy time. So I didn't have very good impression at that time, I wasn't very happy to be there. Mary chuckles.

Yeah, but how about in Shiga-ken when you settled down?

Oh, after I settled down? Well, I stayed only one month.

Oh is that's right.

Because I couldn't stand the cold. See, it was January, I couldn't stand the cold and they have this-what you call that?

Stove? Or, hibachi like thing?

Yeah, hibachi. So you had the hibachi to warm your hands, but then I say yeah, but the rest of my body's cold, and my feet's cold. So, and then my dad wanted me to go to school, and I refused to go to with grade 1 and 2 students in Japan , so I said to dad, I said instead, I'd rather further myself in English so I may as well work for the army, then I can learn something, rather than not knowing enough of English, and not knowing Japanese, I said at least learn something. One.

And my brother-older-my second brother says no, he didn't want my dad to let me-let us go because he says, lots of girls got spoiled from the GI's, so I said to my dad that, please let me go and I will promise that I will not bring shame to you. しっかりしてやっていきますから (I will do well). Both Mary and Tatsuo laugh So, with that, I thought he was quite wise to let me go, so with my dad and my two brothers-two older brothers, they took-we went to Kyoto , so that my father took us to Nishi Honganji and he knew a minister there.

Oh...

My father’sのfamily前から西本願寺に行ったり来たりしてたのね. (My father’s family had been visiting Nishi Honganji frequently from before.) So apparently, the Tanemuraのchurch (Tanemura’s church) is known as offspring from the 天皇陛下の (Emperor’s), one of the 天皇陛下 (Emperor) has come to the 村 (village). Because they say the 敵 (enemy), the enemy or somebody come and destroy the 天皇陛下(Imperial) family, they'll all be destroyed so they took one of the son-

In a sympathetic tone Oh, yeah.

Now I don't know if he's a real son or whether he's one of the-what is it? Illegit-son I don't know that part, but anyway, they said he branched off to this お寺(temple), so they call it 御紋章(royal family), and the wife is おひなさん(princess), they call her お姫さん(princess). Anyways, so my dad-we all went to the お寺(temple). Two brothers and myself. So right away this Reverend Yukawa-san telephone-he was American Nisei. He was already working for 京都の, he was a commanderのinterpreter. (He was already in Kyoto as an interpreter for the commander.)

Oh is that so.

Translator. So right away he phones in and somehow my oldest brother got a job for Kyoto Jyogakko, to teach English. And then my second brother, in some armyのなんか job there (some job at the army there.). And then I worked for, I went to-as a schoolgirl first, because I couldn't work in the armyのoffice (army’s office) because I had to get clearance from the-they call it C.I.D., so Counter Intelligence Department. Investigation? Oh, Counter Investigation Department. So, they have to investigate your record before your-you can be hired to work for the Army. So during that time I thought, oh, well they want to go stay in the 田舎(country side) so I worked as a schoolgirl for Mr. and Mrs. Horns. And at that time Mrs. Horn was pregnant, and she was the first American dependent woman to come to Japan . So, fortunately I was able to stay there, and I worked there for a while, and-with the intention of going to school, but-so he tried to teach me, give me course, as matter of fact came through some biology tests that he gave me (Mary laughs) he gave me some books to read, and he's trying to educate because I only had grade 8 education here so. And then I thought well, if I can't go to school there, may as well work in the Army. So he got me a job working for the Engineers department, for the (?) in Kyoto. And I, oh I got-this lady called Ms. Priss, she was an American department civilian, working for (?), and she was quite a sharp, intelligent girl, she was almost head of that department. So I was working under her, and she-they would ask me if I could type, and I said, Oh, yes, Mary giggles five words a minute. So, I could type, five words a minute, I just learned how to do the keys at school, in (?). But I didn't have the speed yet. So, I got a job as a clerk typist. Mary chuckles.

Oh is that right.

They gave me a whole bunch of stuff, all numbers and numbers I wasn't good in yet. まだ習ってない(I haven't learnt them yet). I hadn't memorized it yet. So, they had to get lots of things done. I remember my experience-I'm supposed to get lots done but I only had maybe two or three done, so she came and say まだかってね (Still not finished?). She came and looked and see, oh, is that all you got done.

And she stood right behind me watching me Mary laughs and I go ポン、ぽん、ポン (Click, clack, click). And then filing, I didn't know how to file because I never worked in the office. And so, instead of teaching me, I think when I think of it now I should've used my judgment but I guess, just looking at things was just overwhelming, I was afraid to make any mistake. And so, then she used to say, Oh, you're a stupid girl, you don't know how to file, you don't know how to do this, you don't know how to do that, and then I thought well, I'm going to show this woman. So every time I went-we were-after we got cleared to work for the armed forces, we got to stay at this dormitory, it's like a hotel, and they have a dining room service, room service. So, instead of going home for hot lunch, I stayed through the office hours and coffee breaks, I just practiced my typing, and before she knew it, I could type faster than her. So she used to always give me her work. And then one American, she was in her 30's I think, American Nisei woman, she went to Japan before the war Tatsuo hums in agreement so her 日本語 (Japanese) is good, very much better, and but, Ms. Priss-her name was Frances. Frances was away, so Ms. Priss asked me to interpret, and it was contractors to do a job. And so, she told me, to tell these people exactly what I say, and she used to say, Tell them they're stupid! So, I told them この方がね、あなた達本当にアホだって言ってますよってね. (So I told them, She is saying you are all so stupid,) You see? I’m 正直に言ってるのね. (I’m just saying what she said.) So they looked like this, you know (Tatsuo laughs) and then I said so, この人がね、もう三回言ってるからもうこれで一番最後に命令しますって言ってね. (I said so, She’s saying that because she already had to repeat the same thing three times, this order will be final one.) Sort of this you know, so they were like this and then they got action, and she says I'm better interpreter because I get action. My 言葉(wording) is not as nice, but I tried to explain what she's saying even though-but if it was Frances, she won't say この人達はあなたは馬鹿だとか言わんよね. (She wouldn’t say she’s saying all of you are stupid.) She would say この人はとても早くしてほしいとか上手に言うでしょ(She would say word it nicely like She would appreciate it if you could work on it a little faster.). But I just tell them, 正直に(honestly). So I became her interpreter Mary laughs . I didn't want to, because I didn't like her anymore, because she used to treat me badly, but I thought oh wow. But she like me so much she took me to her hotel, and she cut my hair because I had long wavy hair, she says, You have to dress like an office person, so she cut my hair Tatsuo chuckles she gave me some of her clothes, it was kind of loose big on me but I was happy, because I had some new clothes Mary laughs . But, yeah.

So how long did you stay with American Army?

I stayed with-1947 to 1940... Mary pauses as she thinks 9. September 1949, oh no, wait a minute. Before that. Yes, that's right. 1949 I got a job in managing an American insurance company, maybe you've heard of it, American International (?)? In Kyoto ?

Mhm.

And, there was just a manager there, and he wanted someone to look after the office. And at that time, he hired another Canadian Nisei, she's now living in Seattle, the Kawaguchi Travel in Seattle ? Anyway, she was going to leave, and so I had made arrangement that if I'm going to work there, that I wanted dollars, not just Yen. And I told him my reasoning was, he said Well give me a good reason why you want dollar, and I told him that if I work for that-your-I said when I work-if I work for you, that means I'm going to leave a comfortable dormitory where I get room and board, and all the conveniences, I have to go and look at Japanese family home somewhere, and pay a higher rent. And then I have to buy my own food. So I asked for-at that time I think I asked for 25 dollar American money and 5,000 dollar to live on Tatsuo hums in agreement . And so, it was good, 1950, no 1949. So, anyway, so he hired me and I had I think one hour briefing form this girl, Vicky,

And I thought, gee, I don't know-if I take over I'm going to be the only one there I can't ask any question if I don't know. So, I didn't know how to do pro rata insurance, if somebody cancelled. So I asked her how to do it and I wrote it down, the sample, and then, there was a lot of other things that-so as long as I know how to pro rata then I can handle other things と思ってね (is what I thought). And so, that was the start of my managing the insurance office Mary laughs and then I have on record at that time, that any-at that time they just sold bodilyの injury (bodily injury) and liability insurance only, and it was 25 dollars I remember. So all the G.I's who had-G.I.-no, no, what is it? The car? Jeep? They only had 25 dollar liability insurance. So, when they came for renewal, I would sell full coverage, and of course I would tell them well, if something happened this and that, I says you're going to-you're not going to be covered so, the client that comes back for renewal, then they will have full coverage, so the head office will know huh, this person's selling full coverage, not just 25 dollar insurance. So, I was getting a lot of good...yeah, and then there was a customer-woman customer, I can't remember her name but I kept the copy. She wrote good thing about me to the head office. I didn't know, and so the went oh, so-and-so wrote that you're doing-I give a good service. So, in years time-during that time, I got cleared, got my Canadian citizen reinstated. And then the Korean War started Tatsuo hums in agreement so they took- Mr. Taishima , I knew him then, a Canadian Tokyo Liaison Officer, he told me and said, Mary, if you want to go back, you better go back because I know there's going to be... boat’s not going to stop going back and forth.

Oh yeah.

Just like, so then I thought of my dad, you see? My dad and mom の時ね. (Just like the time my dad and mom were in Japan before the war.) I want to go back because one, my brother was here. Two, the person that I wanted to get married to went to Hawaii , he was an American Nisei soldier, and I wanted to marry him but he was going to university. So, I thought oh-well then I thought well if I'm stranded here, then I'll never be able to see him. So that's why I wanted to go back, you see. So in September 1950 I came, returned.

So that was a quite weary time.

Yes, yeah. But then I though well, I won't know-I got my job to my sister, but by that time it was getting paid in Yen. So, she wasn't going to get dollars. So I had asked for advance of her-part of her wages, she was willing to let me have some money. So I took 200 dollars with me Mary laughs that's all I had, and I came back here myself, but I had planned that I probably won't get into trouble if I go in houseworking Tatsuo hums in agreement There’s always demand in houseworking. I can eat and sleep until I know my way around, and then I'll have little 小遣い(money), and then I was going to go to school. And then I thought, oh then I have to go night school you see, and from-I did apply, and went to school, but it requires two hours homework every night for different course. I thought, What can I learn? I'm mature student now, and I don't want to go through high school because I've got to support myself. So I thought well, I guess good thing from-since I got little experience in the office, to do better in the office. So I thought I'll take shorthand and bookkeeping. And I think-what else? There was 3 courses I can't remember. So that requires like 6 hours of homework a day, you see? And then that means-and I work from 7 to 8 in the evening, with these people, the housework. Then I thought oh, I'm too tired to even read a newspaper, do homework. So I thought well, I can't carry on-so I went to three classes, and then I quit because I thought this is not going to work out. If I'm going to go, I have to save money and go for full time, or, not so hard work.

Not so long hours. So, then I thought well, best thing is get experience in the office if I can't go to school, so I tried phoning around and, when you go for an interview they'll tell you yes, the job is available. You go for an interview, they look at you, you're Japanese, so they say, Oh, I'm sorry, the position's just been filled.

In a disappointed tone Oh.

There's too many like that. So I went back and thought well, I'll phone and see, and I phoned, and I asked them, Is the position still available, and they says, Yes. So you knew that-I knew that it was-they are not going to hire a Japanese. So, I thought well, then, I want to get married to Terry and be a good wife, so I thought well, I have to be educated because he's getting education, but in the meantime, I should learn maybe sewing then. So I thought work in a factory then. So I went to work in Vancouver Shirt and Overall, aero brand, Chinese owner. So I worked there, I think it was-I started for 40 cents an hour or something like that, and then on Saturday I worked in a cafè, from 12 to 8 o'clock, and I got 4 dollars. Then Sunday I would do my washing and cleaning and get ready. So, I worked-and in the evening I went to エビ剥き(peel shrimps), nighttime, エビ剥き. I think they give you 30 cents a pound or-I can't remember. To peel. So, I worked because I wanted to call my sister over, younger sister, so one year's time call her over but then I was helping my brother-this brother. I looked him up. When I came back.

John .

Yes, I looked him up and when I came back he was in the jail.

Oh, so he was in jail?

Yeah, in and out. He told me that every time he comes out, they don't give him chance to look for job, one week at the most and then they throw him back as vagrancy. And I think, at that time, it's discrimination. There's a oriental hate, so these detective-I knew when I was living in (?) with him, two detective came and then they would ask me where does you brother-and I would say oh-Where's your brother? And I said Oh, he's working. I got him a job at Vancouver Shirt and Overall in jumping, and I told the manager at that time, Mr. Bin-Kent(?). I told him I have a brother who's in Oakalla , but he'll be coming out, and I want to help him, and only way to help him is if he could get a job, then it would be a road to recovery. So if you can hire him. So at that time they needed somebody, a man to learn to fix machines, so he did get a job. So when he came out, we got him a job. And he was happy, because he was getting 10 cents or, 15 cents an hour more than me. So he was happy, gave me the paycheck, and says, You keep it, because if I have it, I'll spend it. So I open up an account in my name, but it's his, so I said this is your money in my account. And then we would half the rent and half the food, and I would just give him お小遣い(allowance). And he was so happy, he says, you know, I like working, cause he says you can plan to buy this or that, he got a new shirt-he liked it. But he says, before he can get a job, so he had to steal to survive. Steal an apple or something and then he gets picked up Tatsuo hums in agreement . He used to sleep in the open car door to sleep, because he hasn't got money for rent. So, things like that. So I was so happy for him but then one day, Mr. Kent(?) says we have to let John go because he's-we have to tell him every time what to do. And you see, I learned from Reverend McWilliam , he used to be a minister among the Japanese, used to be-he used to be in Japan as a missionary, so he spoke Japanese, but I got him to help me with John , and then he used to go to see John at the Oakalla, and he used to say that John-he used to say, I think I'm born in a prison because I'm always in a prison. And he says, Isn't that a strange remark to say? But I thought well, he has a point. He doesn't get a chance to live outside. And he told-Mr. McWilliam told me when he went to visit John one time, he was in a hole. And I didn't know what that meant, but I think he meant solitary confinement.

Oh.

And I thought, well, John's not the type to cause trouble. He's the type that would help you but-he used to tell me he always got framed, and got blamed for something. Then I said, Well, you have to smarten up, but I think there's so many discriminating among the people that I think you just get blamed for everything anyway.

Yeah.

You're just being picked. So, that's why he was happy when he was working and making money, but Mr. Kent(?) says-at that time you see, if you don't listen, you get sent to the hole again. 言う事聞かんとね (You have to listen to them) from the guard, so I think he got to the point that he just do what he's told.

In a disappointed tone No...

You see? In the institution? Tatsuo hums in agreement So, if he uses common sense,

Oh, I see...

叱られるでしょ(You get disciplined.) And so, I think he thought, 慣れたのね (he got used to it). So when he was working on this job, he (?), had to be told. So that's what Mr. Kent says, that we have to let him go because, We can't be standing over him, when you finish that do this do that. And I thought gee, John -he used to be smart at school. He used to be like 優等生(a model student) and all that, and he used to be good at school and he used to like writing poems, he used to like-he was always very sharp. So I thought, oh, poor Johnny, I guess he's been in a jail so long maybe that's why. So, he got another job, which he was happy, but that's when the detective came. So I told him, well, he's working at-he's working, and they asked me where, so then I told them where, and they got him fired.

Oh.

Because they went and talked to the boss that he's-what do you call that? He's Mary pauses as she thinks , what do you call a former prisoner?

前科者(ex-convict) or something? Like a con?

Yeah that's right, he's an ex-convict. So the-right away, he got fired, so he couldn't get jobs. So-and then I was having hard time, I thought well, and my sister was came-in the meantime my sister came back, just before this I think, around that time. And so my sister-I felt responsible for her, I called her because, but then she had a boyfriend, she didn't want to go エビ剥き(peel shrimps) Mary chuckles . She just going to work. She had a nice job working for the army ここでね(here). She was good typist so, she didn't want to do that and that so I thought well. Well fortunately if she-they both want to get married, well maybe it's better that she gets married I don't have to worry about her.

Yeah.

But, then I thought-my brother then, I guess it was choosing between my sister and my brother for me, it was very difficult because I felt sorry for my brother, and I was with him before my sister came, but I was getting tired, I needed-I sacrificed, I told my friends-the new friends that I met-that I'm going to stick beside my brother. Because even if I lose you as my friend-the new friends I made, even I lose friends, even I have no friends, I'm going to stick by and help my brother. So that's what I was trying to do. But I think you wanted to know the experience in Japan, how the Japanese people felt. There were times that-when I was working for Mr. Horns as a housekeeper there, a schoolgirl, I used to go home every time I have day off, and it was every other Sunday I think.

So it wasn't too far from Kyoto (?)?

No, Kyoto, Notogawa, I think, was it hour (?) or two, I can't remember. So every time I have a holiday, a day off, I would go home, because I miss my mother so much during the war, I made a promise to myself that every time I have chance, I'm going to spend time with my parents.

Yeah.

And by this time I met Terry and I liked him, I liked to go out with him, but I want to go home and see my mother Mary giggles . So, whenever he asked me out, they're going to have a party, and this that, I said, Oh, I'm sorry I'm going to be going home.

So that's the way it was. And-but when I used to go on a train, because I'm dressed ちょっとハイカラ (a little more modern), different, when I get off the train I was scared, because there's Japanese-some guys were-I'm scared when I have to walk from the 駅(station) to the 村(mura). (?) パンパン(prostitutes) this and that, and I'm scared to look at them because they might grab me and, maybe beat me up. So I should just walk, walk、 黙って(quietly), and then if possible try to go home with somebody like my brother or somebody. But sometimes I'm by myself. But, when I used to stay at this hotel after I quit working for Mr. Horns I worked for the American Army, I was cleared so I was able to stay at the hotel. It was very nice at the hotel. All the Nisei's are foreign nationals, they'll be Chinese, Turkish from Turkey , who got stranded in Japan during the war, they all came to Japan for education. Like from Indonesia and all that, so I made lots of friends-and lot of them were going to Doshisha (Doshisha University). So, I made friends with them, and so it was very nice for me-I didn't have education so for me, to social with the older Niseis, I learned, and I thought well that's a way of learning.

Oh yeah.

So every time we eat in the dining room I would sit with them, or they'll come and join me if I'm sitting alone, and-because I was one of the-me and my younger brothers and them , we're one of the younger ones, they're all older. So I promised to my father that I'll do my best, so Mary chuckles we were always だから(so), the Chief Cook who was America's sergeant, 可愛がってくれたのね(treated us well). Because they say, you people are young so you stay decent 言ってね(they said). My parent's came, they used to let them come up to our rooms, and then if it was lunch time or supper time they bring extra food for them. So, they're very good that way. But at that time we met-my brotherの(brother’s) roommate, he was a Hawaiian Nisei, his name was Frank Watae , and he used to tell us that when he was in grade 4, he was in Japan before the war. He lived in Hiroshima , and he said every time he goes to school he was scared to come home on a bike because bunch of boys would be waiting for him. 日本の(Japanese) Japanese boy, they wait for him and they gang up on him.

Ah I see.

Because they say アメリカ人 (American) or something. So, he says he quit school in grade 4 because he got beat up all the time. But anyway he was working for the American Army as Information clerk, where you go into the building and he was information. So he went back to Hawaii and he worked as a night manager at a service station but during the day-during the dayか(or) night time どっちか(one or the other) one or the other. He went to school and got his high school. And there were lots of other people and their experiences. It wasn't so much as mine, but I was scared, so I thought I have to watch. And they used to say-a lot of people from the hotel-see like your children, we walk differently, like we walk straight right? So they say oh, 鼻が高くて歩いてる(They’re walking with their nose in the air).

Oh is that right eh?

You see? Yes, every time. We'll be walking to catch the army bus to go to work-we had service, you see. And then-I think 焼けたんかもしれん(maybe it burnt down). Because that was a law for Japanese nationals. Okay, so they would say-so the Niseis were like Canadians or Americans so-no different, you know?

Oh yeah.

And so they would say 生意気 (arrogant) or something, and they would-they will do mean things if you're by yourself.

Oh yeah, right.

So we had to kind of watch. But I got to meet-I stayed at the 日本の(Japanese) family, house.

And, I got along fine. But if they don't consider my (?), then I will give them fine because I was sort of humble, in...so that way my brother Gord too, and we were okay that way, but we would be thrown in among the Nisei's because we're working for the army, we're all go on the army bus and we have certain privilege.

Oh yeah.

And that's where I learned my Japanese culture when I lived with Mr. Horns. He and his wife would take me all over, and he knew that movie star キリタチorキリなんか、キリ、キミ(Kiritachi, Kiri-, Kimi- or something), something. Anyway this Colonel officer was in love with her, so he learned 日本語(Japanese)-he could read and write, because he was in love with her he wants to marry her. So, Colonel (Kay?) would be among us, and Mr. Horn would know that I can't speak-read Japanese, and they're looking for certain hotel, 旅館 (Japanese inn), so they'll say Maryさんis this the something something 旅館? What does it say there?(Mary, is this the something something inn? What does it say there?) And he knows I can't read. And I have to go like this, oh, I'm sorry I can't read. Okay Colonel (Kay?) what's that? Is that the place we're going?って言ったらColonel (Kay?)がペラペラって日本語で.{Then he’d say Okay Colonel (Kay?) what's that? Is that the place we're going? and Colonel (Kay?) would reply in fluently in Japanese.) So I felt like (?). Tatsuo laughs So I thought when I get married and have children, I'm going to make sure they know how to speak Japanese.

I see.

You see, or read, right? I started off okay, with my first son, that we spoke Japanese at home-he couldn't speak English until he's 3.

I see.

Until we moved to Vancouver-we were in West Vancouver , my husband's cannery house. And when we moved to Vancouver , the neighbour’s all English so he learned how to speak in one month! In English. But so-with my husband start speaking English to him, and I said well, it's an effort for me to speak Japanese, so if you're not going to speak Japanese I'm not going to either, so we started speaking English. Then Marilyn didn't learn any Japanese. So it makes a difference. When my son was grade 6 or 7 he went to strawberry picking, and sometimes we would go and pick him up and bring him home-my husband and I would speak something we don't want him to know in Japanese and my son got a big smile, he kind of got the gist of what we're saying, and so Marilyn said Oh what did they say? and he was saying...see? Because up to 3 years old, he learned-he spoke Japanese. So he could kind of understand grandma and grandpa, but Marilyn couldn't, because we didn't speak any Japanese to her.

Oh I see.

But Marilyn, when she was in first year university she learned Japanese. 大学(At university), that's why she can kind of understand a bit, だから(so) I though it's very important when you're a child up to 6 to learn, and it stays, yeah.

Just going back when you are in Japan , how were your parents? Are they getting along? Are they okay? Because mother has been there for a while, but how is your father?

Right. Yes, I could tell you when we first arrived, I remember opening a door, and my mother was there-I think she kind of felt shy to really come and say hi Tatsuo laughs so she would just sort of stand back, and we would come in-and my sister thought mother was not as warm as she wanted her to be.

I see. Tatsuo chuckles.

She thought that...

The Japanese behaviour...

...The distance-because my sister was how old? 8 or 9 when my mother separated? So, I guess there-no what is it? Adjustment. Re-adjustment. It took time. But my dad, he soon got along with the village people because he lived there before and he went to school, so I remember one time he was a mayor of the town.

Is that right?

Yeah, and he used to do all this 笛吹(playing the flute). Oh, I was going to ask you, Mary pushes her chair back in the background.

Oh yeah right.

Mary and Tatsuo whisper to each other After. Maybe I should... Mary becomes intelligible as she walks away from the table I'll show you the picture. I don't know-my brother-

Oh that's your brother?

No no, that's my father, and the first 長男の son (eldest son’s son). He's here-maybe you met him. Kiyoshi Otsuji?

He was doing the pottery and t-shirts for the Powell Street festival.

Oh.

1984-'85? He, Powell Street Festival, he had a Japanese design. Yeah.

So this elderly guy is your father.

Mhm.

What kind of costume is it? He's...

これ笛持ってるでしょ。(See here, he’s holding a flute.)

Yeah right.

And an 扇 (fan).

Yeah, 篳篥(hichiriki) or something?

I don't know what-that's what I have to find out. After you translate my (?) letter. Or maybe before you translate I forgot to show you, I got an answer from this-I had written to him from Hawaii because we lived-I got this letter (?) letter, from Los Angeles , a day before we left for Hawaii. Then this was the answer he gave me so with this letter he says, he wants all the other information. Like his (?).

Long pause as Tatsuo reads the letter. Oh, yeah. Tatsuo hums to himself as he reads the letter. Oh yeah that's nice.

That's not all... Recording cuts out.

Recording starts with Mary talking mid-sentence. Think of many people, like even ourselves that we achieve, for instance to get a home, or whatever, it takes a lifetime lots because the Isseis have struggled, as you know. And due to, not just Japanese perhaps other immigrants, especially from Asia, is they really struggled and the jobs they have is-lot of it is if you were a Caucasian you won't take it. Tatsuo hums in agreement. But because you need work you will take it.

That's right.

And then, so I thought well, my father, he was in his early-must have been early forties? When he-when the war started. He was semi-retired, so I think it's very upsetting to lose your lifetime, whatever you've achieved. It's not just only money or things, but it's your entire sweat and hardship that you've put in. And finally you think you have it easy for your family and then it's all gone. Of course, lots of people probably went through that but I think that must be hard because if that happened to us now Mary chuckles I think it would be very difficult.

Yeah. Well, I think it's not only Japanese Canadians but some people in Japan must have experienced similar too.

Oh yes.

Like if you have a business, and then there was air raid and then the stores unclear , then you can never recover. Mary hums in agreement. I don't think there are any chance to recover.

Mary speaks in a solemn tone. No, I don't think so either. But today the insurance now, well, you can take out earthquake insurance. Before they said act of God, so it wasn't that. I think since the San Francisco , in was was it, near there? They have insurance, earthquake, and I think since that many people got earthquake insurance.

That's right. Yeah, I think that I have other questions. Pause as Tatsuo gets himself organized. Let's-I need to ask you a few questions. With other Japanese people you associated with, during the wartime, do they have similar experience like yours or like people went to Alberta and then went back to Japan ? Do you know anybody close by? Or that most people stayed?

I think most people stayed but there were some that went to Japan. Yes, we know, we haven't kept contact but there's the Samata family, they went from Coaldale . And Oyama family, they were Okinawan, so they went to Okinawa , and I understand when they went back, of course they must have had some hardship but, because the brother was-either he had his own garage service station or what, if he was working for somebody in Coaldale, he did this service station in Okinawa, and he did very well. For the Armed Forces.

Oh, I see.

Yeah. So I know Mr. Masuda, and Mr. Masuda's son is married to one of the Oyama’s daughter. And so they see and talk to each other. And then one of the Oyama’s, I know that Seiji Oyama and his older brothers that's-his daughter's married to Masuda. And so I saw him here, when he came here one time, and I think they go back and forth sometimes. And they are-they were doing well, and they know some Japanese from Coaldale.

But they were from Vancouver , and they went to Coaldale, and then they repatriated. We went on the same boat, but only they went to Okinawan.

Those people came back again? Or they stayed in Okinawa .

No, that's why this one Mr. Oyama came back here, I think Mr. Masuda was saying, but then he went to Okinawa again so whether he went to visit Okinawa, I'm not sure, but at one point he was here, living.

So, some people, they have go and came and back again.

Oh yes, yes. And also, other than Alberta , the one's I've met in Kyoto , there's lots that went to Toronto that returned and was repatriated when they returned to Toronto. Some of them were there before the war but they came back to Toronto, yeah.

So when you, around 1950, when you decided to come back to Canada again, what is the reason are you-I thought that was not so easy decision because your family, most of your family members are in Japan .

Yes. Well, I think I mentioned it here. Two reasons was one, because my brother, Akihide John was here, and I was worried for him, and I thought maybe it's-he's here all alone so if I come back I'll look him up. But another reason was because I was interested in marrying this Hawaiian Nisei soldier. He signed up for 3 years and through the G.I. bill of rights he went to university in Hawaii . So, that's-

So that kind of consideration is stronger than staying with your parents.

Right, yes in a way because well, yes, I think so.

Of course you are still young. Both Tatsuo and Mary chuckle.

Yes, yes. So, my parents knew, because I told them that I would like to marry this person one day, if everything goes well, and they-so I-there was lots of people from Japan that want Japanese style, どういうの、結婚 (how do I say this, marriage) through the family? But I told them No, no, I want to marry a Nisei, because unless they-the Japanの人 (the Japanese person) has been abroad, then they would understand if they are little bit Westernized, they experience a little Western. If they're typical 田舎の...まだ都会の人だったら (If they’re a typical person from the countryside... if they’re someone from the city) it's-they're more unders-what I said, typical 田舎の人だったら(if they’re a typical person from the countryside), it's going to be hard to-for me to, get unclear . Or it's that I didn't want to. Mary giggles.

Yeah, right. I think that's-you are smart. I think that at that age you figure it out because I'm sure that if you are married a Japanese from Japan, it must’ve been quite tough.

Right.

Wherever you live over there.

Right, then I would have to sacrifice and be totally Japanese, right? If I marry 田舎の人(person from the countryside), I couldn't see myself being that, I thought well, まだ都会の人だったら (if it’s someone from the city), they have education or something and then there's possibility of that but it so happened that I met Terry and I just want to... Mary giggles.

I think it's not only that person. Both are young and they start new life, probably okay, but I think families and relatives, especially in 田舎 (the countryside), you have to be considerate to the age there, and things like that are fairly tough in Japan.

I don't mind that, if I was really in love with somebody there, maybe. Tatsuo laughs. You know what I mean? But so happen I happen to meet Terry and I was really in love with him, and so, and I found it a little bit more challenging to be married to somebody that's going to university, and he spoke English very well, much better than I do.

And so I thought well, it was sort of encouraging for me to be able to-it was a challenge, so it depends on who-I suppose if I found somebody there then I would be dedicated to that life, but I just happened to meet this person and...

So, eventually you married, around when did you get married?

I got married in 1953 in May, just when Terry was graduating, in February he told me to go to American counsellor and see what kind of papers I have to do to go to Hawaii . And then in the meantime I was living with my sister-in laws, and everyday I got lectured, and Oh Tosh, my husband, Tosh is very nice, I should marry him, if I go to Hawaii my sister will be all alone here, 寂しくなる(she’d be lonely), it's better if I stay and marry somebody here, and everyday. And I was sharing a bed with her so that went on every time so finally, I said Okay I'll marry him. But all night I thought Oh no, oh no. So next day, I said, I can't, but they went right away and told Mr. and Mrs. Haraga that I've consented to marry Tosh. And I said, next days I says, I can't, and they said I already said I did yesterday, so I have to go through it. And I told my brother in-law, and he says Well, I'll, I says I can't. I have to-if he's willing to wait to find out, whether if I want to marry Terry or not, I said who knows I might still want to marry Tosh instead, so I said but until then I'm not sure I waited all these years, so I said he's finished now, so 丁度辛抱したから(because I waited so long), just a while longer and I said if he can't wait well it's too bad, then I don't want to get married anyway. And I'm ready for it, to get married, and he says, Oh don't you say it, I'll tell him. But nothing happened and engagement came close and then right away engagement and then right away married so, and then the way Mr. and Mrs. (?), unclear , says I gave my words, I have to keep it. Tatsuo groans. So, I kept my word and I thought well, you see if Tosh-his parents died early. So I thought Well, I don't want to hurt him, so I guess I'll have to try to dedicate myself and be a good wife, and this and that. But if he was a person that had parents, I thought Oh, well even if I hurt him, he'll get over it. It's a little different. But I felt sorry that he も苦労してるから(he’s also been through hardships) I thought Well, I don't want to hurt him. But, as I was-but I think it's God's way, that I think it was a good choice. I love him now, and he's a good man. If you have a good man, you can't help but fall in love and yeah. So, Tosh and I went to Hawaii in December 1988 and we saw Terry, and my other friend, Frank Watae , but, there's no feeling there anymore. Tatsuo chuckles. I had it for a long time, about 10-15 years after I was married even.

Oh, I see.

But because my answer was my wedding invitation, I couldn't write to him saying that, what happened, so I just sent a wedding invitation and he was shocked, you see. So, I guess guilt conscience on me too. That it was too shock for him, that I should write. But I couldn't write either, so that's how it was. But now I'm glad. So we've met his wife and, Tosh and I. Yeah so it turned out okay.

So living in Hawaii or in Vancouver must have been quite a difference.

Yes, yes, but when you're young, you can adjust. And I thought it would be nice because I used to like Hawaiian dance and Hawaiian music, but I'm glad I stayed here, because then my family and everybody came around us.

Oh yeah, I think that here-eventually your father-your parents came here, right?

Oh yes.

So, when did they come back?

Okay, well, okay. I returned here in October 1950, and then-

You sponsor the sister right?

Yeah and within the year, my sister-we sponsored her. And then two or four month after she came, then we helped my brother Gord come-he won a scholarship to study at Gonzaga University in Spokane , so we-like he needed the fare, so we sponsored for that. And then, in 1956, my oldest brother came here, and since-and then he called his wife and family, my mother and dad over in 1958. So, we told my dad, You may as well sell the land and come here. Because もう長男(the eldest son is) coming here and we're all here, and パパ、ママ一人でねJapanにいても (the idea of mom and dad staying in Japan alone didn’t sit well). So now you're just hanging onto your land and going to be all alone in your old age. So we said Well sell the land and come out here. So that's-so they came in July 1958, my parents and my brother's wife, all the family-rest of the family came. Except one sister. She's still living in Kyoto (?). But my older sister died during the war, so I never met her. She died from malnutrition. She married our distant relative, he became a magistrate in Chiba-ken . But when she was married to him, I think he was still learning law at the time, and my sister-older sister, she wasn't used to doing hard work. And so, when she married this-his name was (Tsuji?) too I think, or was it (?)...the mother-in-law Japanese style. You have to do their 畑(field), work in their garden, everything. I guess being in the farm, you have to work in the rice fields and all that, and then when she came to eat-this is during the war-then you serve the family, and by the time she sat down last to eat, her mother-in-law take all the food away, just what my sister has. And she's very humble so she'll just take a little bit, right? She won't fill it up like this Mary's voice falters as she makes a gesture with her hands , so she'll take a little bit. And so she died from malnutrition I think.

Oh.

Yeah, so it was a shame. So when I went to Japan in 1975, again, I went to visit-try to visit her...I was not well, so I went to Philippine to get the healing? Faith healing? And I felt much better so I went to Japan, and I went to all the お墓 (graves). ご先祖様の(my ancestor’s) and my sisters. And when I went to visit, then, her husband said Oh, I look like his-my sister 首から(from the neck), slimmer, of course, 首から(from the neck). And then his second wife, who was a schoolteacher, she was very nice, she met me, my second oldest sister took me from Kyoto, so I met-had a chance to meet her. And the strange thing is, we went to お墓 (graves) there's no-there's only a stick there for my sister's お墓 (graves). Mary speaks in a sad tone I don't know why. They didn't put a stone. I don't know what the reason is. Because she died from TB (Tuberculosis) I think, malnutrition and TB.

Well, if she's exploited like that, that family-

Mary finishes Tatsuo's thought Didn't want to.

They aren't willing to spend any money.

Yeah. I thought what a-if that's the case we can put her into the family plot Both Tatsuo and Mary chuckle I felt sorry for her. But that's how much her life was-meant to them but, I think the husband, I think it meant a lot to him but I think the mother is strong, his mother.

Yeah.

Did I answer your question?

Oh yeah. I think so.

I kind of when off the subject.

Oh, that's fine.

Oh, I think you did ask me how the other Japanese people repatriated, yes. I think many of the repats had a hard time.

Yeah.

Because a lot of them-you see, like my father, if he didn't-if my mother wasn't there, and still he might chose to go back to Japan because, you see people can't speak English that well, and then don't forget you lose everything, so you don't have that kind of money, although I think my dad had a few. To go to East, とんでもない知らない所ね(that was somewhere they had absolutely no knowledge of). I think they fear going somewhere where they don't know, What kind of job is my children going to have? What kind of a job he's going to have? How are they going to get by? So he-they feel that, I think on a whole, it's safer to go to Japan. Because you're Japanese, somehow the Japanese people will help you or whatever. But a lot of the people went back I heard they had no food, people with no property, no land, and they said they ate sweet potato roots or leaves or whatever, anything like that.

Yeah, a lot of people I remember. First two years after the war was terrible.

Would you like to give me a massage?

Oh no, it's okay. Tatsuo nervously laughs.

You could give it while we talk. Mary giggles.

It's okay. Tatsuo changes the subject. So, your dad-mom and dad, how about their citizenship? Do you remember?

Yes, I think my mother and dad had a citizenship-was it naturalized? Anyway, at least naturalized, because when my mother went to Japan, my brother Tom was saying, my mother was a Canadian citizen, and so when she went to Japan she was visiting there, so she didn't lose her citizenship, the war started. That's how she was able to come back here.

I see. How about your dad? Was it the same thing?

I think so.

But do you think then they have dual citizenship? Usually Nisei...

Yes, I had too. When I went to Japan I had dual citizen, but when I got reinstated, I had to lose it.

You're Japanese...

Yes, so they said you had to choose, and I said Well, I'll take Canada, because my dad says If you 日本人 (Japanese), you can always can get it, but, you can-it's hard to get Canadian one so keep the Canadian one. So, but I think it's changed over there too now, right? Tatsuo hums in agreement. But at the time, my dad used to say Well, it's better to... Anyway, so I wasn't going to stay and live in Japan at the time, my heart and my mind was always coming back here.

But do you may not have lost Japanese citizenship...

I don't think so, because-

Do you have a koseki? Have you ever seen the koseki?

Yeah I think I got it.

And it says so you-

Yes, because when my uncle died, my mother's brother died, one of the relatives came out here and wanted us children-my mother's side, to sign off that koseki so that my uncle's portion will go to his wife. The property? And so, we thought it was kind of fishy, Why can't he have his-why can't the wife have his portion? Isn't it automatic? That wife-if your husband died, doesn't it automatically go to the wife?

Tatsuo hums as he thinks.

Like if-

Yeah, if wife-wife survives, if wife and children survives, yeah, it should go to them. And so, it's, I don't think it's right because it's nothing to do with-even you have brothers and sisters, like still those people aren't entitled unless they don't have any children or wife.

Yeah they don't have no children, but wife-

Wife survived right? So everything goes to the wife.

Mary hums in agreement. And then, だからwifeのsideのnephew came (so the nephew from the wife’s side came) to get our signature. So, we had the, Frank Hanano asked him about it, and he thought there was something that maybe we shouldn't sign, and then-so one of his partner went to Japan.

He says he'll find out, but in the meantime, my mother's brother's son came, and he came and get a signature.

Yeah but it's nothing to do with the signature part.

No no. It's about the land.

Yeah, so what I mean is-

Right, I'm sorry.

You may not have formally announced Japanese citizenship.

Oh yeah, right. That's what I was getting at. あの時に (That’s when) I found out. They brought our-all the name that this this this that. And it's on there from my uncle's side, that's when I learned that we must still have it. In Japan . They probably didn't destroy it.

No.

Because oh, I didn't give it up from Japanのside (the Japanese side). I give it up as a Canadian side. だからthey don’t知らす, do they (I guess they don’t communicate that do they?)? You know what I mean?

Tatsuo laughs. Oh yeah right.

That's right.

I don't think so.

Unless I go to 日本の国籍place I don't want it. (Unless I go to a place in Japan that administers citizenship and tell them I don’t want it.) I don't know how that works-I-we just gave it up too.

What you can find out is that you write to the Japanese, you know what town it is right?

Yeah.

So you, under 役場(administration office) and ask them to send your koseki.

Okay. Probably Nokigawa-cho for me.

And-

Koseki?

Yes. And probably you should mention your father's name.

So if we have it, is it okay?

If you have it, that means that you can apply Japanese passport. I unclear any meaning for you or not but then that means you are still dual.

Yeah I can, but then it's not advantage though, is there? I mean, what I mean is I could go as a Canadian passport anyway, right?

Well... pause

Maybe that shouldn’t be on there?

Well it's just asking a questions so...I don't know what- Recording cuts out.