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This oral history is from an interview conducted by the Oral History cluster of the Landscapes of Injustice project.
oh we're not going to get too many people. But this guy came and he said the reason he came is because he was the person that drove me to the hospital and he wanted to meet me! So and since I got to know him as a result of that and later on we were trying to find this camp and he took Keiko and I up into the hills but we couldn't find the original camp. Anyways that's the story of how I met him after, after all these years he wondered what ever happened!
you know just give you advice if I were you I would leave, or I would do somethinghe says
do something that you're more capable of doing, rather than working in the office. So I quit and went to university and eventually became a teacher and a principle and so that's where we ended up. I just have a quick question for you because you just ended with the perfect topic, what drew you to further your education within Manitoba and not move to a different province? Well first of all I went to I started going to teacher's college for my education, prior to that I was in engineering. I was going into second year engineering and just so happened I met a friend. I hadn't seen for five years who was my high school partner or at least I knew him in high school and he had been living in BC just came back. He said
you know whatand I just ran into him in the street one day and he says
I'm going down to teacher's college, why don't you come with me, so we can talk?And so I went with him and we're sitting in the principal's office in the teacher's office and at that time there's a shortage of teachers and they're saying how the government will pay for your tuition and all that and I thought
geez this is not a bad deal!So I signed up to go into education as well at that time and so that's how we ended up at teachers college and so after we graduated he and I went up North and we taught on an Indian Reservation for a short period of time and then I moved into Winnipeg and started teaching for Winnipeg School Division. And so during the time I started teaching I went back to university, I guess after four years and Keiko by that time had graduated from nursing and so she was working and so I went back to university. So I went back for two years and I got not only my science degree but I got my bachelor of education degree and began my master's program, all in the short period of time. So but it worked out well and but your question is why didn't I go some place else. At that time I had started education teaching and then we had children and so it became a case of just staying here, since we I had obligations as well so. And Keiko what drew you to stay in Manitoba for further education towards work? I didn't think there wasn't any other option at the time really because you go out of high school and then even going to university I don't think we had any money because I know Grace is nine years older then me, my sister and she probably would have liked to go further but she had to go to work right away. To help support the family, because by that time we were on Beverley Street which we bought I think. So like when once I'm out of school then I think my dad by that time was working at Miseracordia because before that he was at Marlborough hotel you know. And then he I think he got ulcer or something so he had to have surgery. So while he was off he took a cooking course so then he and then by the time I was graduating from high school he was working at Miseracordia in the kitchen there so I applied there to go into the nursing program. And it doesn't didn't cost any money really, just to get your outfit and you get your residence there and you know you go to school and they you get to eat there and. SO everything was for three years free basically and they even gave you like 10 dollars or something a month you now after a couple of years once you start working on the wards. So you know it didn't cost anything and I think it was something that I had thought I would like to do as well. Yeah its interesting because Keiko's parents at the time decided to move back to BC. When? Around the '60s. Oh no that was after I graduated. After I graduated yeah. Yeah, after you graduated, yeah. Yeah Yeah, but around that time you were getting married so that's they went but we stayed. Yeah they were okay with...yeah. Yeah. Hmm.
why would you know someone take something like that when you have other necessities that you would be bringing. But in a way it's interesting because I think you know for my grandparents that likely was very important. And so they did an exhibit way back in the national library in Ottawa and so we took that and put it in there as something that they brought over when you know, most people didn't bring those things. And why, the question is why would the person do that? I don't know the answer but it was likely because it was important. Well I think though, that a lot of people packed their stuff and they kept it locked. Yeah. Because you know even our stuff, some good dishes and ornaments and dolls. All that kind of stuff that you had in the home at that like, they thought they were going to get it back so they packed it all up and they left them in a storage room or locked it up. And in fact, one women years ago when I interviewed her, remember she said they buried it even. Right, yeah. Hoping to come back at some point. And they thought they could come back at some point to get it. So they left it and then of course within very short time it was vandalized, sold or you know all property was gone.
oh I don't want to go back therecause it's just... Yeah we had a conference called Home Coming in Vancouver and the idea was going back to the roots and yeah a lot a number of people refused to go out there. Just because of the I guess... Yeah I guess they still couldn't ha face it hey or deal with it. They hadn't dealt with it. I mean you could tell when you talk to people during, before redress and we'd have these little small kind of home meetings and they started to sorta open up. Because before that nobody really talked about it and then they start talking about you know... things that happened to them and all that and I think it was kind of a it was good. Because it sort of whereas if you went in to somewhere in Toronto or something and people say
oh yeah well that was the that was good that that happened because then you know we weren't just a ghetto there and that was a good thing that it happenedand well you kinda knew right away where they were at. They hadn't really discussed or hadn't really dealt with that issue yet you know. So you could kinda tell where people were at just by what they said. So you both have been back to your family's properties in British Columbia? Well we like I don't think we really had property. My... my father's brother had, in Steveston. But we lived, I was noticing like in my sister's notes their first resided at 522 Powell Street and then moved to 510 Alexander. Mhmm Before my older brother was born so that's about, Tom, yeah before he was born. So and then before that my oldest sister was born in Steveston so I'm not sure exactly if they. I don't think they really owned a place but they did live there while he was working with the fisherman's group. Yeah so I'm not sure about the property part. Yeah I should ask Grace more about that. I think in our case it would have been my grandparents who had the property and we did go back. It was interesting because we took our kids back. Oh yeahhh. To just show them. And the first time we went there I'm not too sure, the kids weren't there. You, my mother and I and Roy I think we went and saw the house that we lived in on our property, my grandfather's house was still there but this other house was the one that they and at the time that we went there it was being boarded up. Which part? The house that we'd lived in was being boarded up and they were going to tear it down and I remember my mother going though it and saying this was where this was and oh they moved this and duh duh duh. But that was and we were told that that part of the property was sold and that it would be converted. So the next time that we went to the same property that building was gone and there was a huge house on there, yeah big house. But our farm was still there and so the guy who owned my grandfather's house allowed us to go and visit so we took our kids there and so that they could see where... People were just ready to leave though I think, they had already sold it or something. Well they were in the process, there was a lot for pressure for him to sell it but what happened was that right around his house the builders built all new houses and he was the last one and they were offering him a lot of money to sell it and he refused to sell it. But after we had left and about two years later someone came and told us that our he went by our old house and it was all boarded up and it was being demolished. So now it's gone. do you remember the specifics of the two homes on the farming property? Rooms and... Oh! Yeah. Yeah and in fact we walked through my grandfather's house and my mother kept saying that it was still the same. Like even the shelving that he built was still there so yeah it was quite amazing, mind you the house looked like it was ready to fall apart at the time.
you know we don't even have headquarters. The perception was that we were quite strong because we were in the media all the time and all of that and they gave the impression that was quite a... aggressive organization whereas we didn't even have a place that we could put our stuff you know so. It was interesting how that evolved, it was only after redress that we started our national office and all of that. But prior during the whole campaign we didn't have anything. Yeah which is kinda odd when we think that the national was organized in 1947? Yeah '47. Yeah '47. Yeah strange they didn't have... But it died, it died and re-started. Oh yeah maybe it died. So in 1984 when you became the president of the NAJC... Yeah. What did that mean to you? Especially taking on the role while you were still pursuing your career? Well I mean at that point we were thinking about as Keiko mentioned you know the our own community in terms of East, West conflict and the conflict in the way. So I took on that role and we tried to smooth things out. But we always had a negative influence coming out of the East because they kept thinking that we in the West really don't know anything
no I'm going to this rallyand she said
ohand then I found out that this other person who was there was kind of an influence a negative influence and they didn't want this to be happening because you know. Remember that? Tony. Oh yeah. Yeah and I thought, that really kind of upset me because here we all were. So then her uncle who happened to be from Winnipeg, I think he phones and spoke to her you know and said
well you know your mother in Winnipeg is supporting it and you should beand you know. So it was that kind of thing even within families there were a lot of conflicts. Yeah there were divisions yeah. One of the things that came from the redress was the Canadian Race Relations Foundation, did you both want to speak on that a bit?
you know we're talking about negotiations what did you really loose?You know, what did your community loose? And it was a good question because we didn't have an answer for it. We could say well people lost their property, how much, what did you know in other words quantify it and we didn't have the date and so we decided that we would conduct a study. And we had gone to a number of accounting companies and Price Waterhouse is one of them to do this study. And then we found you that it would cost 150 thousand dollars to do this study, and we started a campaign to raise funds, I think we raised about 30 thousand at that point. And we realizing
to get a 150 thousand we're never gonna get there!So we applied for funding we asked the government
could you help usand basically they said
why would we help you, I mean you're gonna use it against us why would we pay for it?And so we realized at that point in time that there must be a lot of organizations such as ours who really can't do much research because you just don't have the funding and that's when we decided that maybe that's what the race relations foundation should be able to do is help groups! Not to lobby for them but at least to rely sources of revenue sources of funding to do the research. And so we decided because we had such a hard time trying to get funding that that should be part of the redress settlement so that's where the concept arose that there should be a foundation to help other organizations through similar situations. And the you know the Canadian Race Relations Foundation still exists and they're dealing with issues of racism and I don't think that we'll ever get to a point where we can solve all the problems. And so there's certainly a need to have a body like that, but that's how the genesis of the Race Relations Foundation came about. And when the government approved the redress settlement and that was part of it we were invited to take part in settling the parameters for that foundation so, remember we went to Ottawa a number of times to meet with government officials and we sat down and at least worked out what we felt was the important part of it. And one was the arm length relationship with the government because if you're going to criticize them you have to have some distance. So that was an important part of it. And they also made it into a charitable organization as well, as part of the bill. It was a charitable organization. Speaking on... community and organizations. Both of you continue to be incredibly involved with the Manitoba Japanese Community, as well as the greater Canadian Japanese community. What does community mean to both of you?
oh are we at the Japanese pavilion, because like just about half of them are not Japanese. But most a lot of them are the result of intermarriage, the kids but it's also people's their friends and everyone comes and help. And there's also people who have gone on the JEP program like this one Ally who is the fellow's wife or girlfriend and she studied in Japan, she came back and so she's quite knowledgeable of the culture and language and things so she draws in the alumni from that you know experience in Japan. So a lot of those people know more than even me or a lot the kids about Japan and Japanese culture. Especially particularly now the culture, so then there's also the other part of the more recent people who have come. The newcomers and to me they're the ones who will probably have some of the discrimination or because they are they have the language, they may have an accent or you know they come here and they don't maybe know you know they're not comfortable. So they're the ones that probably are the Japanese that we used to be that faced some discrimination so to have a place like this for them to come and talk to one another whether it's in Japanese and then to you know just to sort of fill their identity to be able to be comfortable. I think that's kind of important hey? Yeah. To have a place for them to come, And the came with the kids, and you know when you think about it its changing so much that now the kids you know they're older, we're into the fourth fifth generation and who knows you know this place may not have that the Japanese who experienced that was time experience. Those kids may not no longer be here any longer but then hopefully other people will come and you know learn about the history while they're here but also have their own history and their own culture that they could have here. So it's kind of important to have a place whereas we didn't have that when we were growing up. Yeah and so I was saying that' the involvement part that comes in like we think its important so. And in order to maintain the community you know you have to take part and encourage other people to and so. And that's why I think things like folklorama are good for us, even though takes a lot of work and the people say
oh do we have to do it again?And you know or...
okay this happened, what should we do?Or you know, so just to be able to share some of our history and knowledge about experience with people in our own community and also anybody else. Because I'm sure they a lot of the people in other communities experienced similar situations so I think it's a lot of sharing that we should be doing. Well I think the part that's important is that we have to remember who we are and where we came from and I think very often some of the stories like our experiences important because a lot of it was based on racism and all of those things. And we have to remind people that the even today some of that is exciting for other groups, and that we as a community need to speak out against it. Cause I think during the whole redress settlement to the turning point for us was when we were able to bring other Canadian on board and say
come and share this with us. And we said the way we dealt with it is we called the redress a Canadian Human rights issue. Once we started using that concept that this is a Canadian issue other people came on board and I think that was an important step for us because prior to that it was always looked upon as our communities, it was a Japanese community against the government you know. That type of thing. Whereas we had the collision of other Canadians and their support made a big difference in how the government began to look at us. It wasn't just our community now arguing for redress but there were other Canadians that were involved. So I think its important the message, and the I think racism will continue to exist and so we need to be one of the people at least speak out against it and that's what we the NAJC had a human rights committee who's part of a role is to ensure that we provide support for other people in terms of need. Yeah I was just going to you said something about forgot what it was now. But... well you know something like the NAJC is in a position to be able to facilitate a lot of discussion you know? I don't know whether they're doing that as strongly as I would like it to be. The other thing is oh yeah I know what it is, even though the settlement and the agreement was more about loss of freedom and rights, the property part I think when people realize that we weren't foreigners you know, we weren't you know Japan Japanese and we want redress. Once they realized that you know you lost property or you lost all these things people seemed to be able to relate better somehow...and it's terrible
oh they lost all that? And you know that was terrible!they'd have that reaction because it's a tangible thing that they can relate to of losing your house, oh my gosh you know like that. So that probably is something that even though that's now what we fought for that's kind of important in that way hey? Yeah. Do either of you have any final thoughts or any final stories you'd like to add?
oh you know Japan would never be able to do that as a countryhe said
we would never be able to admit that we did something wrong as the government you're always right, right?And so he said you know he was really quite taken back by our government's action. But the comment that he made he said you know really he said
it takes a mature country to be able to recognize that there's a mistake you do something about itand I thought you know that's really good because Canada is really a young country in relation to all these countries and yet when they come to Human Rights at least we're recognized as one of the strong members of the countries that really stood out for that. So in a way it was a good experience because I think you know you felt proud about your own country. And so... Well I'll just make a I just thought of a comment I could make. It is about something like what you're doing and projects like Justice...Injustice Landscapes of Injustice Landscapes Landscapes of Injustice