Tom Shoyama, interviewed by Ann Sunahara, 27 August 1990

Tom Shoyama, interviewed by Ann Sunahara, 27 August 1990 Interviewer Ann Sunahara Interviewee Tom Shoyama Transcriber Sakura Taji Audio Checker Sakura Taji XML Encoder Sakura Taji

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August 27, 1990 Cassette Tapes oral_history_shoy8_1990-08-27.mp3 3:40:06 English - Canadian Victoria, B.C., Canada

Tom Shoyama talks about his family and his grwoing up in Kamloops. He describes his father’s journey and work, eventually settling as a baker, and his mother as a schoolteacher. Tom describes his school years in detail. Ann summarizes that he grew up in Kamloops quite unaware of the barriers that were to face him due to his Japanese heritage, when he decided to come to Vancouver to attend UBC (University of British Columbia) . Tom alter discusses his first years at Victoria College and UBC, and how he was not in touch with the Japanese Community. He describes in detail his first living situation, as there was very limited student accommodation in those days, he was essentially a ‘schoolboy’ where he did the cleaning, dishes, laundry for his room and board. He describes the area around the Powell Street neighborhood, and when he first met Kunio Shimizu and his best friend George Tamaki . Tom then talks about Keynesian economics, McGill economic development with Professor Kierstead, Sumida thesis and Tom’s mentor. He describes his first meeting with the Japanese Canadian community, his friendship with Hideo Iwasaki, living in dorms at the United Church. Tom also talks about the early days of the New Canadian . He then discusses the volatile situation during the early internment period and Seiji Homma’s work with JCC. Tom and Ann Sunahara have a discussion about Prime Minister Trudeau , fears from those who thought propaganda would be used against the Japanese Canadians including Hugh Keenleysides view. Comparisons are made between those forced from coastal villages on Vancouver Island and US Terminal Island experience. He describes how the New Canadian editorials were more about rights and democracy but not property. Discussions made regarding citizenship differences. Tom did not seek cooperation as loyalty but more practical futile to fight, he was unaware of the truth at the time – political decision, communication was poor and minimal. The two discuss Tom’s role as spokesperson for JCCC , and his first achievements in Saskatchewan with CCF

This oral history is from the Nikkei National Museum and Cultural Centre's Kage Collection. Accession No. 2021-7-1-1-3. It describes the experience of exile.

document created Speaking into the microphone. Testing. 1, 2, 3, 4. Interview with Tom Shoyama at his home in Victoria on the 27th of August, 1990 by Ann Sunahara . Talking to Tom. It’s been a number of years since I interviewed you. 1976? Is it that long ago? 1976...Yeah. When you visited me in Ottawa . Yes. (?) for your own research. Back then I, of course, I was working on anything I could find about Japanese Canadians. And now I’m going through much of the same stuff to interviewing you again! Laughing Yes. Well, you’re probably more knowledgeable than anyone else in the country now. Of course on this project, I (not only have to know?) about Japanese Canadains but I will be touching you from time to time on information on where to look for the more profes... economic aspects, shall we say, economics aspects of your career. I’ll have a fair bit on that. I sent you a summary of what I had, hopefully we can work through chronologically. Sure thing. Is this story about your grandfather’s involvement in the Satsuma Rebellion correct? As far as I know, that is the way it was told to me by relatives in Japan . Okay. You raise the question about sources. As you know, I went back with Kiyomi last November and met again with family. I’ve got a few pictures of them that I’ll show you. Good. But uh, how to access some of the more detailed accounts was difficult. But they would be able to, and they were very interesting of course. Telling stories of their ancestors. They’re a... I have an elderly cousin who was particularly interested in and two nephews so to speak. Well, perhaps what I can do is get someone who is Japanese to contact them on my behalf. Someone like um uh... do you know Yoko Shibata in Vancouver ? No I don’t. She’s frequently in Japan actually. Her husband is a professor of Mathematics at UBC . Oh yes. She has herself a PhD in Geography. Ho-ho. And she’s of course fluent in both languages so- That would be ideal. It would involve some travel of course to Kiyokuchi-mura(?). Yuko would probably thoroughly enjoy it. Yes she might indeed. Yup. I was thinking about Lillooet about an opening line or something like that (?) Laughs. Yes, okay. That’s certainly- No, no. I think that perhaps the Satsuma Rebellion something alike. Oh! Laughs. 1877, you know, and they give a little bit of background. Yeah. Because if that had not happened of course, there would not have been the same immigration to Canada and (?). Yes. But the authenticity of the story then becomes rather important as well. Yes. Okay, good. Short pause. It’s sort of, quite a contrast to your life. I mean- Yes. The idea of deciding that society is dead because you can’t wear swords is completely contrary to your philosophy in life, which is that you set the best of change and put aside those things that have become outdated. It’s true except that it does suggest some ideological convictions. Yes, true. This is true. That’s what I say, perception (?) of the least. Yes. That I adhere to. Mistaken or otherwise. Yes, yes. But in his uh and also an indication on how obedient your father was. Yes, yes. Uh but I think I saw some independence and spirit. Which was demonstrated in your, as you know, your notes that he left the comfortable (?) in Victoria or Vancouver or Steveston . Mhm. He struck off on his own. He wasn’t the only one who had done this, of course. But there were not many who tried that kind of adventure. Yes. It would be interesting to know if he were up in that part of the country at that time whether he knew Mr. Yamauchi that I was telling you about who had written this diary. Maybe. Maybe I should have his relatives check whether your father’s in that daisy. Laughs out loud. Of course it was a big country. You said the Cariboo(?) country? Part of the time, yes. Well I know my father did work north of Kamloops but primarily in connection to the railway. And cooking in the mine. Short pause. Well I know Yamauchi was also in a capacity probably as a cook because he later went to Edmonton and founded a hotel and then bought farmland outside it. Oh really. Hm. That certainly would be an interesting diary to read. Mhm. So he was with the railway. What, where and when he met Mr. Jones? That’s right. That’s right. Long pause. There was a CN division point across Kamloops called the Blue River. Mhm. Of course. And I think that’s where my father worked for some time. I had a nation that he worked on the section line. (?) And then he was a cook at a couple lines. (?) Kamloops , the Iron Mask Mine. Long pause. (?) although they have been shut down for a long time. During the 50’s I suppose the active mines in Kamloops was opened up. Mhm. And he went from working as a mine cook to working at a bakery. Or at his own bakery? My understanding is that he came to Kamloops and opened up a restaurant. Ah okay. But with inflation and prices during World War One, his restaurants went bankrupt. And after that he got a job working in a bakery in Kamloops. Duggan’s Bakery. Short pause. Now, he was very gifted as a baker. And as a cook. Mumbles. Mhm. And under some circumstances he would have become a great chef (?). Yeah. Today Tom: Yes. he may want to aspire to that. Mhm. He would have um... We would be dining in some little restaurant. Small laugh. It would have been quite a different situation. Yes indeed. And then he founded his own bakery later. What, in the 20’s? 80’s. Took Duggan’s over. Yes. Took Duggan’s over. Took Duggan’s over. Did it stay as Duggan’s Bakery? No, he changed the name to Kamloops Bakery. And of course, he became known as Kay. That’s what they called him, Kay. K-A-Y. So a lot of people just call it Kay’s Bakery. Okay. Long pause. My best friend in Edmonton was from a prominent family in Kamloops . Her name was Mary Alan Bickers . Mhm. And she knew the Kamloops bakery. Mumbles Large ranch at the time, Bicker’s ranch. Yeah. I think it was either her father or grandfather who was... it was her father actually, who was the head officer of the Kamloops regiment or something during the First World War. Oh. In a quiet voice: I thought it was the grandfather. Actually, no. She was quite an end of the line child. Her father got married when he was quite old. I see, mhm, mhm. Although she’s only my age. Mhm, mhm. Okay. Now, your family. Your brother’s still- As for my mother, you have a note about her? Yes. Sound of pages flipping. She was a school teacher. Uh-huh. Okay. Her family, long pause was very much concerned with education in terms of that the present principal of an elementary in the home town would be her grand-nephew. Uh, my mother’s brother became the principal of the school and his son became the principal of the school. And the present principal is his son. Three generations of school principals. Do you know her home village name? Kikuchi-gun . Long pause. And that’s not the same village as your father? Yes. It is? Okay. Yes. It’s kind of a spread out rural village. But uh they both have that address, Kikuchi-gun . It’s now developed into a quite thriving suburb of... a separate suburb of Kumamoto City because it’s very close to the International Airport. Okay. And uh, increase in air travel. Because I also understand Kumamoto City is also becoming the Slocan Valley of Japan. Um, I’m not so sure about that. The computer center north of the so-called new city north of Tokyo , Tsukuba- Mhm. (?) Technological University (?) generation of computers. But it is now quite an important (?) center. And it has a lot of history on Japanese mumbles: what am I trying to say here? Was your mother the one in the family who pushed you to study and to achieve or was that simply expected? Short pause. I think I inherited some interest in education and books and things from her. Yes. I can’t say that she pushed. She was too busy raising six children. Trying to keep them (?) you know. Okay. I know both your sisters trained to be professionals. Yes, yes indeed. Which was not at all that common in those days. No, no. It was quite uncommon. I had notes too. My annotations are here. My older brother was particularly interested in sports. Ann: Mhm And then my brother immediately below me who always had an interest in manual arts. Mhm. So he went into uh technical training in highschool. And was very interested in the outdoors and pursued to hunt wildlife. Short pause. And your youngest brother? My youngest brother, you know, I lived in Kamloops for mumbles: what was it 2, 4? 6 years difference. So he was just a youngster when I left Kamloops. And of course, people didn’t (?) home those days like they do now. No, no. Leaving home was quite something. It was, indeed. It was a major adventure to travel to Vancouver . We used to speak in (?) Oh they’ve gone to the coast!. That was a long motor trip, a long train trip in those days. So an adventure to the coast was something to be noted even in the community newspaper. I um, did they announce your departure? On the weekly news. No both laugh out loud . I’m afraid not. Or my return. You certainly weren’t listed in the column of eligible young men laughs . Indeed not. Both are still laughing . Now, I’ve got two Japanese families. I get the impression there were three. The Watanabe. Watanabe. The Magami. Magami. When I was a child Ann: Segoma , there was only one Magami who was a single man. Okay. But I guess by the time I became a teenager the Watanabe family had arrived mumbles . Okay. He was single, okay. Now, as you know the other references to Kamloops kid. Yes. So, at some stage- There must’ve been- There was this family running a rooming house. Right. But we had- I understand that these connections, reasonably tenuous but it was just exploited. Right, right. But he did live there for a period. Short pause. He um, Roy Granastein wrote a book on this. Of course he would. Well, they use it to illustrate the differences between (him and me?). Oh I see. In that sense. I haven’t read that. Partly I need to control my temper. Yes. Well laugh . I will have to read it someday. I will, I will. I have not read it fully either. Um, people have asked me whether I would write rebuttals and things like that and I’m still debating whether the better way to handle that is to simply ignore and seek into academic oblivion. Or whether it’s, whether to write rebuttals. It’s one of the reasons I’m certainly disturbed that the general attitude in publishing seems to be the issue, the Japanese Canadians is passe now and not all that interested in bringing out a second edition of my book. Mhm. That sort of disturbed me because it means that people like Granatstein have established, who are established academics get to rant and rave on about incorrectly. And quite frankly I have not forgiven Pat(?) for her involvement in that book. Well I must say that it does show an exhaust of study (?) files. Yes. And it does footnotes. (?) Now that accepts everything in the files, the factual, (?) accurate. Well it does draw in things from the file which I don’t think are valua-, viable inferences. Such as if it finds evidence of attempts to recruit spies it presumes success. Yes, exactly. And one does not follow from the other. Exactly, exactly. Secondly, even if spies were recruited, success or capability does not necessarily follow with either with that sort of evidence. Whisper: Right, right. It a, of course, I’m also speaking as a lawyer sort of thing. He has nothing that holds water from that point of view. Mhm, mhm. I mean true, Kunio told me of people trying the Consul's office, trying to recruit him to go back to Japan and do propaganda work. Tom: Mhm And how they told him where to go. And that one or two people did go back to Japan to do propaganda work. As evidence to buy Tobio roads. Tobio roads. Yes. But uh- Although they went back to Japan to do propaganda work. Or whether they went to Japan for some kind of future. And then- And then they were recruited. I think that was the story of Tobio roads. Yeah well, I almost got the impression she went back to Japan for family reasons. And ended up having to- I think that’s right. To work that way. It’s a, quite frankly Granatsteins work is shoddy because he tries to draw inferences from such uh tenuous bits of evidence Tom: Mhm. And at least I made sure I had at least two pieces of evidence for each fact that I tried to Tom: Mhm. prove. I mean he makes grandiose statements and doesn’t produce, as far as I’m concerned, documentary evidence to prove them. Yes but he’s fond of publishing. Oh very. Tom laughs Very, very. And unfortunately, being part of the Toronto establishment, he has um uh shall we say, short pause forms from which to publish. Right. mean, if I were in university with him, I would... That’s another story. I don’t think I would be in university with a professor in the mode of a historians are operating at the moment. I don’t um, I don’t think frankly, they’re doing things in a relevant manner. I’d much rather see cross-disciplinary stuff than um that doesn’t concentrate so much on (?). However, um, okay yeah, I remember you told me that some years ago that the teacher having argued the Japanese side, et cetera. I hadn’t realized it was a youth group rather than a... A church group? Yeah. Yup. Actually, when I think about it, the New Canadian , all the debating societies seem to be organized by the church, either the United or the Buddhist. Yes, that’s true. Yes, yes. Were the churches consciously in that time attempting to implicate um, shall we say, um talents into young Japanese Canadians that would let them speak out in public, that sort of thing or? Well I don’t think that, no. Um... Or this just a normal activity for young- Yes, yes, I think so. In this particular case, that you’re here speaking about, the Kamloops experience, you know. Mhm. It was as you can imagine. Well, youth groups should do something besides play volleyball. Tom mumbles something. And debating was the normal intellectual uh- Well I don’t think it was a regular debating group. Oh. No, just the church group had some interest in public affairs, social gospels and (?). And this particular (?) came up because there was (?). Was it the United Church ? United Church, yes. Long pause. A note here that you, no one in particular sort of monitored your English, other than your, I presume your normal school teachers. School teachers? But that you had got hooked on the habit of reading young, so- Mhm, mhm. Like these Pulp Magazine provided by an elderly German neighbor. Yes. Western stories, short stories, flying aces, Ann: Ahh. that kind of thing. Was he using them to improve his English? Laughs out loud. No, he enjoyed them. Oh. And we were very fortunate in the sense that he made them available to us. There was nothing else that we had to read. Yeah. I remember (?). Mhm. It was a hardcover (?) and I must’ve read that at least 50 times because there was nothing else to read. True. It must be very difficult for young people today who get inundated with books or television, all forms of entertainment to understand. Mhm. Yes. How young were you when you started working in the bakery? Oh, I guess I must’ve been short pause it was (?) you see of first, going after school to do the wood. Yes. Because uh the stoves were fuelled with real wood. So I had to split the wood and carry the wood. I guess I must’ve been short pause 13, 14? And then on the weekends, the Saturdays, which were rather the busy days, starting work (?) cleaning the pans. Mhm. And greasing the pans. And then sweeping up. By that time, my brother would be going to help make the bread. My younger brother who was 4 years old at the time. Mhm. And then, by the time I was finished highschool, I was working in the morning too. Early in the morning before school. Oh yes. About an hour or so. And going back after school. That’s right. These bakers do start early. Oh yes. And then I finished school. Short pause. I spent sort of early (?) time there for a while ‘cause there were no other jobs. Was it always the plan that your older brothers would take over it? Or was that a product of the Depression? That was essentially the product of the Depression. Yes. Did he have other plans or did he just... He just fell into it. Long pause. He had the advantage that he’d work early in the morning and be sort of through mid-afternoon which gave him time to play tennis and things like that. Ima say, I think he had quite a happy childhood. Mhm. Small town. Hills to roll on. Mumbles so called jungles. Mhm. And um long pause hm. And the occasional Tom Nix movie? Yes. Saturday afternoons, 5 cents. That was a very good location. Long pause. Sounds very much like the childhood of probably my father’s and just about every other young boy of your generation had. I’m sure, I’m sure. Mhm. Uh, a small town was a great advantage. In the sense that we could go down the streets without worry. Mhm. (Rolled?) on the hills which were nearby. Looked for wildflowers and picked the Saskatoon berries. And then going to the hobo jungles. One went there looking for beer bottles. Ann is laughing a little. Did your parents uh, would your parents have been upset if they knew you were in the hobo jungles? They may have been a little bit. But if you could find some beer bottles that you can get a few cents for, that was a great advantage. And there was a sense of adventure when you come into the paths of (?) hobos sitting around a campfire, of course run away or try to hide. Laughs. Yes. And there were sometimes if the river would flood, or it would fill up and slews along the riverbank. And those slews would get very warm. So they would just be the (?). (?) yeah. Long pause. So you, did you learn to swim in those days or- Laughs. Well. Or just paddling? Splashing? Splashing. Yes. For kids who had access to all the municipal pools and what have you nowadays, this was, again, something they wouldn’t understand. Oh that’s right, that’s right. And your school, I presume your highschool and primary school wouldn't have had any of those extra facilities either. Nothing like that, no, no. Of course, there was a (?) swim down the river in the park (?) Ann: Mhm. sand beach and lifeguards and all that kind of thing. But the river was very strong and very cold. Did Kamloops have a baseball team in those days? Oh yes, yes. The Kamloops Elks, if I remember. And once in a while, we would sneak into the ground to watch the baseball games. Ann laughs. One disadvantage I had, and I think about it a little bit is that uh as soon as I got to grade two, I was...skipped a half year class. So I left behind uh the kids in my age group in school. Right. And that happened all together I did sort of 8 years of primary school and 6 years of highschool. I did lose close contacts of childhood friends and I was a bit lonely as a consequence. Yes. But I suppose there was extra pressure too to do well. (?) skip a year to catch up. And there was pressure to learn to work on your own. Yes. Mumbles something. Oh yes. All the constant source of laughs those were the loud laughters there. Oh right. And it was rare for anybody to go down for a walk who doesn’t stop this time of the year to pick at the odd blackberry. Ann laughs. And then some people would come along with pails. Oh my goodness. Is that public land over there? That’s a municipal park actually. It’s quite undeveloped, you see. Both laughs. The odd time I’ve carried a ladder when the young ones with small children come along with a small pail. And I would carry the ladder up there. That’s where you get the good ones. Yeah the top (?) over the beach. Both laugh out loud. My (?) here. That would’ve also given you the double disadvantage too, that you would have been so much smaller than the students you (?). Right. ‘Cause you’re not March to start with. And if you’re with kids older than you. Two years, up to two years older than you. That’s right. Mhm. I was quite conscious of that too. Because you couldn’t compete successfully in athletics. Short pause. Yes, it hasn’t pushed you off sports. I mean- No, no. But I tried to play soccer in the small (?) on the forward line. Oh right. Hoping that you would be faster. Which wasn’t necessarily true. Laughs. So you didn’t get knocked over quite as much? And the track and field was that you couldn’t jump that far, you couldn’t jump that high with the high-jumps. That sort of thing. And you play a fair bit of tennis, don't you I see there? I tried to play tennis, for sure. Was that your brother’s influence? My brother’s influence, yeah. I presume he stayed with his own age group and Tom: Yes. was he bigger than you? Uh, not really. But he was very fast, agile. Mhm. Yes. In fact, he played baseball uh basketball short pause which I never really understood. Well the best basketball player when I was going to school was only about an inch taller than me. Which is... but of course he knew it would end, when he ended highschool. Laughs. Well basketball was a very popular sport. So, anyways (?). Sorry for the stuttering. Laughs. No, no, that's quite alright. I love them. The only time I’ve ever seen hummingbirds was David and I drove from Duncan , BC , from Victoria once and stopped at the restaurant overlooking the river or something like that. I can’t remember the name of it now. Some of the town that’s beginning with a M on the way up the river there. Maple Ridge ? Um, no, it was um... I’m going to (?) the tape on it. Recording resumes. 01:38:04 We were very fortunate having neighbors when we were small children. We had neighbors, a childless couple, who had two cats and kept chickens in the garden. Ann: Mhm. And they were very kind to us as children. They would take us out on picnics. They had a car which was quite rare in those days. In the early 20’s. And uh they would take us out on picnics to nearby lakes. And that was a great weekend(?). And that was some sense that (?) garden came from that. Yes? Di- We also had a, this (?) English. Mhm. They had a very close family friend. The uh, another Englishman. Who was the provincial government representative of Kamloops . I think he was a very tall, distinguishable gentleman. Hada (?) beard which was (?) in those days. So this couple were also traveling. And they were also very kind to us. They would remember us on our birthdays (?). Oh that’s a lot of money. That was a lot of money. Huge (?). I remember writing an essay for school in grade 6 or 7 to describe someone we really, really admired or something. So I remember that I (?) change our spirit (?) 6 feet taller than me. I got an A for that. (Both laugh out loud.) That’s the first time I remember trying to write anything. Yeah I can imagine too as a child at the age of 10 or so that you must’ve been then, it would’ve been quite... 6 feet would’ve been enormous. Yes, yes. Your mother had gardened, didn’t she? Yes. But um, she hadn’t, well by the time I got to highschool she had more time for it. Mhm. And mumbles . I mean, once the young kids got big enough, they could also do their share Laughs . Yes but I was the one who didn’t mumbles . In the garden? In the garden. Mumbles a lot. I didn’t have many close friends. Mumbles. And you would put that down, I presume, to the difference in age you were associating with. Yes. (?). Mhm. Can be tremendous for children. I’ve often questioned that business for skipping grades for that reason. Yes. I know when they wanted me to skip it, my parents refused to allow it for that reason. Mhm. On the other hand, I remember meeting with one of Kiyomi’s teachers in grade 10 or so mumbles I can(n’t?) challenge her. Right, yes, of course. Because she was so far ahead in all the (?) for her class. Well now of course they put in the gifted classes and give them extra work. Stimulate them so they’re still advancing in their age group. And therefore emotional maturity but they’re getting extra- Mumbles. In fact, in those days of course, schools were definitely not equipped to handle any child that was different either slow or fast. Mumbles. No. Now, yes I found your one reference in one of your various documents on the Kamloops Bakery on Victoria Street? That’s right. It’s still there. Mumbles. You say your brother has a store across the street? Your youngest brother? Grocery? No, it’s the same store. Oh, it's the same store. Oh it’s now a bakery and a grocery. Yes. Okay. Mumbles. The interesting things now is that after the evacuation, the Japanese Canadian population in Kamloops just soared. Yes. Uh, (?) used to stock up on Japanese goods (Ann: Of course.) (?) managed to get soy sauce and miso and all those kinds of things. This would be your father? Yes. Did he start making Japanese baked goods too? No. Not that I knew of. Though my younger brother, quite enterprise-able. He just carried it on. So that’s the source for Japanese ingredients in Kamloops today. Mhm, mhm. ‘Cause I could imagine that it was becoming increasingly more and more popular. Yes indeed. Now, and you would know from the thing I’ve written for the New Canadian sound of page flip that and I’ve had several conversations with you that you basically grew up unaware of the barriers that were going to face you simply because of your ancestor. Basically yes. Um, you mentioned earlier today there (?) my close friend running (?). There was a chap who used to drive around town, with a horse and a buggy, collecting old bottles and that kind of thing. Mhm. And he was a bit of a character. Mhm. And kids used to tease him. Yes, of course, yes. I know what you mean, yeah. Mhm. In one incident uh, the police came to visit. And this chap said, Kids have really been harassing him and the worst two, were those two Jap kids. My older brother and myself. And was quite untrue, you know. We might tag along but (?) the most active and vigorous of the harassment would be too frightened to really do anything like that. It uh, that fits in with all the evidence on perception. Yes. In those situations. Um, the- We were scolded very vigorously by our parents. But of course, I remember feeling this great injustice (?). We were being (?) because we stood out in a group of kids. Yes. But you never grew up with any sort of identification with him as someone who was also teased by your fellows. Students so to speak. No, no. That actually is very interesting because children are very quick to notice differences. Yes, yes. I suppose in a way uh you (?) people like... I think it’s Takashima. The person who wrote on the prism camps. Mhm. Shizue. Shizue. I think, possibly, of course, which they were attacking her for physical infirmities more than her ancestors. Uh-huh. Although in her mind, I’m not sure if there’s all that much of a distinction. Right, mhm, mhm. They were um, do you ever run into flat boys because you were doing so well in school? Not that I recall. No, no. Still (?) simply enough days when even boys were expected to do well in school Laughs . Mhm. When it wasn’t uh... That’s right. It wasn’t a source of pride to be a jock. I think it was more of an influence. However, (?) where uh school leaders. Mhm. Mumbles school leader. And as you know, they were heavily influenced by English and British empires. Yes. Tradition, emphasis on superiority (?). Yes. Mumbles ideas of... END OF TAPE 3, SIDE A Identification with the, those readers and uh the adventure books and everything because I think my father went through the same process. And he has talked to me about. So the image of Britain, he went off to England with in 1940 when he went over there it’s the RCAF (Royal Canadian Air Force) , secluded to the RAF (Royal Air Force) and very quickly learned he had to stick-up for Canada . If he didn’t, he’d be treated as a colonial. Laughs. You wouldn’t have run into that remaining in Canada? No, not at all. No. Not at all. And when you were in the army too, your officers would have been Canadian, not British. Except for, of course, well short pause Colonel Mulally whom I met Ann: Mhm. (?) more perceptive. Yes. And Colonel MacKenzie, who ran the language school, but also (?) British (?). Was uh Mead British? Mead was British. Mind you he had come to Canada prior to the First World War. Uh-huh, was that right. Yet he was one of the old North-West Mounted Police! Was he really. He even served in um, the USSR for a while as part of that brigade the mounties sent over to support the White Russians against the Red Russians. Really! Mumbles a whole sentence. When he went and his involvement with the BCSC to being the head of the Criminal Investigation Division for the entire RCMP . In fact, most of the time he was handling Japanese Canadian affairs, Commissioner Wood was trying to get him back to Ottawa ‘cause he wanted him as the head of CID (Counter Intelligence Department). That’s (?). He was a very much respected man. Very highly respected. Mhm. And of course with the mounties , you have to come up the ranks. They won’t allow you to do it in any other way. Um the interest in going to university. Your, I know that it was your father who brazed it with Johnson but was this your ambition? I think, I’ve been thinking about it for a little bit. The fact is that my contemporary (?) for going. Ann: Uh-huh. My closest friend in highschool, my lab chemistry partner, chemistry lab partner, mumbles he almost got into trouble. Mumbles. And a couple others who were not (?). The daughter of the school inspector mumbles . Mhm. So- And these were the, Florence Wright, Frances Wright, you and she fought for first place? Mhm. Short pause then mumbles. Mumbles. Yes indeed. So that was, I think (?) stimulus (?). Mhm. So these were... would these be the people you would have been hanging around with most of highschool? Well I (?) hang around other than (?). Mhm. Short pause. Because you had to get back to the bakery to get to work. Yes, mhm. And I guess I wasn’t (?) to socialize with people. I find that of course incredible because I find you extremely socially confident. But of course, you’ve had 40 years of practice since then. Laughs. Yes, and I think maybe I was a little bit in the shadow of my older brother who really was quite prominent in this sort of the gang. Yeah. And his initiative on his pro-(?) athletics. But he was also very sociable, outward going. He was an extrovert. He was an extrovert. And my older sister is similar. Yes. Was very active socially in highschool. In fact I was in college, so. Intense family uh... short pause. Yes. Conflict with her mother. Yes because of course where your mother was raised, no- Mumbles something people are (?) kids are (?). I was the one that came home! Laughs out loud. And didn't go to the senior prom. I didn't, no. Still laughing out loud. Whereas Fumi was determined to go to the senior prom. Yes, right. Did she go with a hakujin? She probably went... Ann and Tom talking over each other. Or did she go with a cluster of her girl friends? Well of course in those days that’s how they would do it. That’s right. Right. Gives a small laugh. Yeah. Well I’ve ran across your sister of course, with other people’s memoirs and discussions like Aiko Henmi and Ann quickly corrects the names Aiko Murakami and Eiko Henmi and Mary Kitagawa mentions her quite often. Yes. I got the impression she remained socially active when she got to Vancouver . Yeah, still, still. She took her training in Vancouver or in Alberta ? Well, she tells me, when I was away for my service time- Yeah. But she says that she first applied, of course, to the hospital in Kamloops , the Royal Inland. Yeah. And the story she tells is that the Superintendent of Nurses at the time said to her, You know, if I were in Japan and applied for (?) nurses, they wouldn’t accept it. So that was the... The formal rejection at Kamloops. And as I was told, she applied also to St. Pauls and Vancouver General and a couple other hospitals. Short pause. I was wondering if you’d like to speak with her. Yes I intend to. Did she, was it a (?) in Alberta she ended up going to? Mumbles United Church. Right across (?) hospital outside. Yeah. I pointed it out to somebody from the United Church in Edmonton shortly before I left, that the (?) had this distinction. Most of the United Church in Edmonton were not conscious of that. And they were very thrilled to have found that distinction. I think at the time they were trying to say the United Church building or something there. They sort of took my information and added it to the list of reasons why it’s distinct (?). Laughs. Mumbles. Yeah because I know that um, it was one of the few places in Canada. Although um Mrs. Tsuchiya tells me that she got into Vancouver General but she got into Vancouver General on the recommendation of the Bishop of Vancouver. And, the Chairman of the Board of Vancouver General. Tom whispers: Amazing. Both of whom um she knew somehow through her father’s connections. Her father had some connections with them and she had asked them for their support and they could hardly refuse her. So, that’s how she got in. I see. And they could hardly refuse her when gives small laugh the Chairman of the Board and the local Bishop were the ones who were recommending her, yeah. I see. I don’t know her. Was it Mrs. Tsuchiya or Mrs. Shizue? No it was uh, Harry’s wife. Not his sister. Oh you mean Yamasaki! Yes. I thought this was (?). Yes. Was she? She said she was the first nurse to graduate from Vancouver . And that she was qualified as a nurse before the war. ‘Cause she was working with uh Dr. Shimotakahara . Yes. And then Harry said you guys sent her off to Kaslo to set up a hospital there. She told me all sorts of adventures of running that place. That’s true. I want to interview her in detail actually. Because I think a proper history should be written about the nurses. Mhm. Mumbles. About the mid-30s? I think it was around, it certainly (?) after (?) Vancouver so ‘37. So she would’ve had a gap in her education. Yes, yes. Mhm. Was she helping in the bakery or? Short pause. She was babysitting and that kind of thing if I remember. And helping (?) the bakery but serving for them. Yeah. Oh so it would also be like a coffee shop and... Well it started (?) opened at midnight, 11 o’clock at night. My goodness that would be very, very hard if you are, if the baker had to do all that. Well that’s why my father, he was away for most of the day. From early in the morning, he would (?) and then finally (?). That’s why we saw very little of him. A lot of the reason why language was, only when I was very small (?) listen to conversation between a proper (?). Short pause. Yes, I could see that. And naturally why once you and the kids got into the habit of speaking English to each other, which you would’ve picked up as soon as the first one went to school. That’s right. Um before- But the Japanese language would simply not be available to you. Exactly, exactly, exactly. And of course, with no other families around to socialize with. Short pause. You really were at a disadvantage when you went into Vancouver then. Yes. Laughs out loud. Yes, I’ve been at a disadvantage ever since. I mean, even my husband can understand when the Issei are talking to each other. Even if he can’t reply because he’s overheard enough discussions between his parents over the years. Of course it was a great disadvantage and (?) specialization of English language. This is true. This means that... How does your mother speak English? Would she speak to you in Japanese? Tom: No. And you would reply back in English? Tom: Yes. I never really (?) in Japanese. My older brothers and my sister mumbles something . Mhm. So that when she spoke to you it would be in English. How was her English? Well, short pause it was limited but at least it was very understandable and clear. ‘Cause her opportunity for interacting herself must’ve been limited with 6 children. Oh yes. Neighbors possibly. Radio after you’ve got one. I presume that wouldn’t be some time until the 30s. Mumbles in the 30s. Yeah. (?) She came back with TB (tuberculosis). Oh dear, that must've been... When was that? Well let me think long pause . Either sound of flipping paper or missing audio. 00:58:31 Later in life when my sister was a couple years older she came down with TB and (?). In a sense we were fortunate because Kamloops you know at that time (?) dry. Warm but dry climate. So there were mumbles she should stay at home. (?) so we had to have some help and this one German chap, his wife came and did housekeeping for us. By the time (?) my sister and I had to do the family laundry which included doing the shirts and aprons for the bakery. Mhm. They had to be boiled, (?) boiler on top of the wood stove. By that time we did have a washing machine. (?) washing machine. Up until then we would wash with our hands. That was a major hassle. Yes. So she occupied one bedroom in the house. And four boys in one room, two girls in the other room. And your father would’ve stayed with her? My father stayed at the bakery. At the bakery. Mumbles something. Of course, for his own safety? Yes, and uh... It’s mumbles . Yes indeed. Short pause. My youngest brother, by the time it became time to go to school, highschool, he thought that he had another year. Laughs. He was her baby, only one left. Ann gives a small laugh. Yes, yes, I could see that. Did they want you children to stay away too while she was staying in that room or? No, not necessarily. But, you know mumbles. And she did recover? She did recover. Mhm. Because my- One very good friend came and talked with her (?). She used to come visit her. Mumbles. That was, (?) in those days. Yes. Mhm. Yes because of course if you have a history of TB it’s not a good idea to have too many children. I wonder because when I came to Victoria there was a little note in the paper (?). So when I arrived, she called me up. Ann exclaims: Oh! She was still living here, she was 90. And she (?) invited me to tea. That must’ve been nice. Short pause. So your mother then did have friends that would relieve her loneliness. Oh yes. These two English people I have mentioned, they were (?). And after the Watanabe family came, there was a Japanese couple to talk to. And of course, Mr. Magami would come speak with her. And this Catholic school (?) people. Did she make Japanese food for you? Well- And for Mr. Magami Ann gives a small laugh . We had rice and noodles, which we made. Mhm. She made very simple dishes with peas or carrots kind of (?) with vinegar (?) in the rice that was always (?) for us. But she didn’t have any access to the materials. Right. And shoyu must’ve been hard to get. Did your friend, Mr. Johnston, bring shoyu up from Vancouver ? Laughs. No. Not that I recall. I’ll have to ask Fumi that she’s more likely to know. Yes, yes. Both of them laugh. Andy Johnston, I forgot his middle name. Mumbles. Jokingly. You lived with this man for four years and you don’t know his middle name? It was And, it was Andy... Did you call him Andy? No, I called him Mr. Johnston. Short pause. He called me by my Japanese name. Kunito. Because I- Did everyone call you Kunito until? When I came to Vancouver I decided to use it for the office at that time. ‘Cause I noticed that uh, one of the things I did notice was you were signing as K. T. Shoyama until about 1949 when you started doing T. K. Shoyama. Yeah. ‘Cause I wasn’t really aware that on my birth certificate it was supposed to be T. K. rather. Until you produced it for civil service? Something like that. I don’t really recall. See, I found a copy of it in your marriage certificate and Kiyomi ’s birth certificate in your personnel file. Oh! So that’s how I got details of your wedding and everything that’s in here. That's how I know Reverend Finlay was the person who married you and that sort of thing. Oh right, yes. Did I ever tell you Reverend Finlay ’s story? No. He was still going strong back then. He’s so active and has such robust health. Quite not the fellow that would let the convention decide what he was doing. Indeed, indeed. Yes. In many ways the Japanese Canadians were lucky that there was a (?) of those people. Oh indeed! Absolutely. Mead , Norman Black, of course, in Vancouver, Professor Angus . Yes. Reverend Norman too? Reverend Norman. And of course Hugh Keenleyside . Yes, yes. I suppose Scott Reid who might (?). Uh yes because I think with Reid- (?) Yes, yes. Did you ever meet him? Short pause. I can’t recall that I ever did. Although I feel as if I have met him. Yeah. I still have a (?) Saturday night mumbles . Even though Conrad (?)? laughs. Mumbles. Well I, when they published Granastein ’s article, I wrote a rebutting article and sent it to them and they didn’t even acknowledge receiving it. Really. I was most pissed off. I thought the least they could’ve done is just send me a rejection slip. Ann gives a small laugh. Mumbles. I have no idea if they reached him. I sent it to the editor. I sent it to, um, oh it was a fellow who left when Black bought it. Oh-huh. Well I sent it to him. And what I sort of did was I coupled my rebuttal to this whole idea to the Emergencies Act and the way it was written at the time, and how dangerous it was. Basically the same arguments I used later for a brief the NAJC got all praised for using Japanese history to prove it wouldn’t work. Mhm. And uh, Japanese Canadian history. And uh, laughs not a word. I even sent a follow-up letter and it wasn’t even acknowledged, so. Um, was it, when you met the fellows in the park in Victoria that your full conscious began to develop. Or was that developed as a result of your readings, your teachers, your church? Of course, the United Church was very social gospels in those days. Yes, although that did not strike me. No, it must’ve been bad experiences as much as anything (?) unemployed. And difficulties, you know, (?) young adults, some older ones (?) unemployable. Shuffled around and it was as tough as our situation in Kamloops . (?) home and just enough food to get by. (?) by somehow. Mumbles they put their hand out. Yeah. Long pause. And that experience of course though would have come on top of the groundwork laid in your youth group. Mhm, mhm. Was your youth group a particularly social...? No, no. Not really. You know, there was this thing called a TUXIS kind of boys. Uh what does TUXIS stand for? Training for Service, Christ in the center, you and I on either side. Okay. T-U-X-I-S. Training for service, Christ in the center, you and I on either side. Laughs. So in that sense it was a social gospel. Yeah? Long pause. It’s a good idea actually. A good sort of name for- Yes, yes! Previously they were the so-called Trail Rangers. Which is the younger (?). Mhm. And then when you went on from there the young people (?). You were in Vancouver by then. By that time. My first year in Vancouver, we were just a huge doors, about half a block away from the United Church. So I decided I would go to the United Church there and join the YPS. Long pause. And they were very hospitable. Long pause. Yeah. That would’ve been (?) out on... On Kingsway. On Kingsway then, okay. Well that’s that address 8888-33(?). (?) Japanese Church on (?). Oh. Not too far away (?). 767 Kingsway (?). I’m amazed you could remember that. I could not. Oh, well. Laugh. Without consulting my tax forms (?). Yeah. Some numbers just stick in your mind for some reason. When they did my security clearance for this job I was really glad they were going back 10 years because we owned the houses for 10 years. So I knew those addresses. Laughs out loud. Yes. Sound of page flipping. Working as a baggage car man on the railway would’ve been a decent paying job in those days? Well, it was a, they were unionized, you know. He had to get more or less permission from the conductor to let me ride in the baggage car. But he was on very good terms. Long pause. So you basically got down to the coast end for free. Well yes, yes. It must’ve been well enough paid if he had enough to support two establishments (?) his own family. Yes. I don’t know how much he raised but his wife and two daughters were (?). But uh it was very interesting. He would come home and the first thing he ought to do was some baking (?) and (?) and stuff them in a box (?). Short pause. Pick up a mumble . Basically he was, he was still cooking for his family? Well uh laughs . This is like daily or? No. This would be every third day or so. He would come home in the morning and he would stay that night. And the next day and leave the following night to go to Kamloops . Yes. And then he would turn around in Kamloops and come back the following morning. So it was every third day, as you know. Which was a great advantage. It gave me a lot of time for my own to study. Mhm. Long pause. And when he would have some days off he was a Christian so, I believe the Christian Science Church. And uh he had friends from the church he would invite over for dinner. Yes, it would be a dinner party. (?) china (?) and set up the dining room table. Short pause. (?) entertain mumble . So this was a proper house you were living in? It was an apartment. Well they used to have quite nice apartments in those days. It was. It was quite eccentric. He had a bedroom with a nice bed. (?) all that kind of thing. But he wouldn’t use it. Short pause. He had a pull-out bed that I used. He used, initially, and then eventually got a couch and put it in the hallway. I used the couch and he used the pull-out bed. And we used his bedroom but we never sat in the living room. Mumbles in the kitchen. Mumbles before giving a pause. Well I wish (?) understand. Yeah. He would be warm to people and something would put him off. Critical of him. And then something happened and he turned around. He was a difficult man to (live?) with. Mumble. Oh yes. Long pause. But still- You really didn’t have the choice. No, no. Short pause. But I learnt a great deal (?) restraints (?). Short pause. Which, from what I hear, came into pending when you were dealing with Taylor. Yes, yes. He was in a rather similar situation. After all, they were much in a position to command. Mhm. In those situations mumbles something after a long pause before giving a laugh. Long pause. You were working there for (?). Yes, yes. To keep the place clean and- Clean (?) the floors. Do the dishes. Laundry? Laundry, yes. Long pause. As you said, you would get three days, virtually uninterrupted, to study. Three days, mhm. Yes. Long pause. Did you ever use the living room when everyone was there? I did go there to listen to the radio. Plays or Vancouver Playhouse. Mumbles something after a long pause. During that first year I had very little association with the Japanese community. Yes, I got that impression. Mhm. You would see them on campus but you didn’t really, you know who or what they were. Yes. Long pause. I have this childhood friend who I had his name down there (?). His father was a school inspector up in (?). Do you know what happened to him? I have no idea. After that first year we didn’t have any classes together, so. Interior boys in the big city. Exactly, exactly. Most of the other students live on campus or were there that kind of arrangement? Oh, no. There were only very limited student accommodations. So most of- And the number of students from outside the city. (?) very, very (?). Although by the time I graduated I think the annual (?) School of Commerce (?). Not the great majority. Mhm. And they just lived home? Mhm. Most lived in cities and knew relatives or something. Or someone like that. Or boarding houses? Yes. Short pause. There were some flat houses. For the rich. It was still for the rich when I went in the 60s. Mhm. Sound of page flipping. By the summer of 1935 I went to work with Sumire. Very crucial. (?) respect to the association, association of the Japanese community. And the (?) of economics. Short pause. Living on the 300th block on Powell Street . We were in the mumbles . Hm. All the stores and businesses locked, with the exception of one Chinese restaurant. Sound of page flipping. The Japanese businesses and the community extended essentially the (?) West Main Street and (?) and east several blocks. All (?) recreational areas. And across there was the United Church. There was this church and there was page flipping uh north and south of Alexander Street . North of (?) Street. Where the Japanese school is? Japanese school. And home? Yes, on Cordova Street which is a block from (?). Mhm. (?) to the south was cough the British Church and the United Church. A Catholic Church more or less on that street. Just in that sort of block. And people were, most householders, (?). In the residential area that extended to the east and to some extent further south. (?) scattered on the other side of Hastings Street. Mhm. Mumbles. So in many ways the Japanese area of town was off the main drag because Hastings would be the main drag. You know, what sociology calls the area of social disorganization. Mhm. Chinatown to the north and west of Pender Street . Um, and then west of Japanese Town was whispers: I don’t know what it used to be called. (?) road area? (?) as Gastown at that time. Mumbles. It’s now fast but (?). Mhm. Different times, probably. Yes, yes. Alcoholism was the problem. Now it’s drugs. If they want to stop it, they’ll have to make an effort. And the homeless of course. Yes, yes. Because it’s uh a primary of the homeless to beg and what have you now. Which of course helps it on the skid. (?) along the waterfront there and fishing American can companies further to the east to the train terminal. Mhm. So it was certainly industrial really. American can company, what were they, canned salmon what have you? No, they produced the cans. Made the cans. Cans. I did notice that Ito, he pin-points when a certain event occurred by the fact you and Kunio walked out of the meeting and was shocked by the silence because for some reason the can company for some reason had shut down. (?) particularly. Laughs out loud. When (well?) I think my in-laws lived on Alexander (?) block. They must’ve lived right opposite of (?). It was a little further up this gate. I think the 100 block. Ah. The whole area heard that come. Oh probably. Yeah. And there was the sugar refinery, just down there. BC Sugar. Mhm. And of course, the fishermen boats tied up there (?). Long pause. Were the Nagoya people like Kay Shimuzu lived and located near there? East of the area. Roy Ito (?) lived. Well, partly because the lumberyards and sawmills were still out that way. People settled there to work in the sawmill and the lumberyard. I think that’s why Roy mumbles . But Little-Tokyo was quite a self-contained community, you know. Mhm. What, I presume the people presumed since you looked Japanese, you spoke Japanese and would constantly address you in Japanese. Mhm, mhm. What was the reaction of the Issei when they found out you couldn’t understand? Oh I think disgust laughs out loud. Disbelief and disgust. Long pause. And you, to some extent, learn how it’s disassembled Ann: Mhm. And you nod as if you understood what was being said. And you learnt to pick up enough of the... What I used to do in Malaysia when I needed to go buy, pick-up enough of the (buku?) and the (hausu?) words and the corrupted word to know, generally what they were talking about. Yeah, yeah. I went to nod when... Follow Kunio ’s lead? Well, yeah. Pretty much. When did you meet him? Oh at UBC . Right. In your first year? No. No, let me think. He had been at Victoria College if I remember. Mhm. So he didn’t come until I was in my third year. He came when he was in his third year. That’s how we met. My closest friend was George Tamaki . Clears throat. And I saw a good deal that he was happy because he was in the same classes. So George Tamaki is a direct (?) of yours. Mhm. Okay. A way to say yes. He mumbles . He intended to go into Law at Harvard. Well he has a very, very stubborn streak, so. Yeah. I believe she’s right. Yes. His father was like that. So he’s also Political Science, 1938? Yes. Hm. We had just a remarkable group that graduated that year. Mumbles. There were the three of us I mentioned. Albert Takimoto , (?). Sara, a chap by the name of Kato who had a hakujin mother. Mhm. And he (?) soccer player. So we didn’t see much of him. Mhm. There was Shinobu Higashi . Who had been in the later year. Was he Nisei or Issei? (?). Well it was technical. And his brother Yoshimitsu . Mhm. He graduated in Languages. He knew 5 languages including English. What was Higashi’s degree in? In English. Must’ve been a shock for.... END OF TAPE 3, SIDE B Noise from flipping paper and creaking of chairs. ...in BC . (?) It was quite classic. Sure. Marshall and Adam Smith who retired. Long pause. Did you have to learn the Keynesian stuff on your own? Yes. Long pause. I did notice uh one of your evaluations for one of the positions, they said you were a bit behind the times in theory. Laughs out loud. Very good at answering questions. I was wondering whether, what they were referring to is whether you were up, I’m quite sure this would have been some time in the late 60s or the early 70s and of course the economics has changed quite a bit. Even Keynesian was passe by then. Yes. (?) monetarism and rationalized expectations of the new economics. You’ve had to basically keep it up by doing readings yourself? Yes, yes. Although I went to, you know, McGill for one year. Right. Did you do Keynesian then? I learned something about (?). Primarily in terms of (?) policy. Ann: Ah. The most interesting part at McGill was the (?) economic lecture. Professor Kierstead. He became quite well known as a CBC commentator in economics and current events. He was a very stimulating teacher. Clears throat. I took a seminar with him on the night (?) the Oscars. Oh. And that time, Slyvia Wiseman (?). That’s right because (?)’s a married man. And she was an outstanding student. Did special studies in Marx’s Theory. Laughs out loud. Hm. That’s a brave thing to do. Well I guess the backlash so to speak hadn’t happened in Vancouver (?). No. (?) pen. I’ll label these later. Just so I don’t use it again. Aha. Good idea. You’re very methodical I must say. It’s a great vantage. Well you learn the first time you have a trial. The senior lawyer who has seven boxes of paper that you have to coordinate for his trial, you learn. Both laughs. Exactly. He wants them chopping gesture with hands chop, chop! Both laughs. Yeah, I’ve often thought that for you, integrating or moving into the Japanese community in 1935 must’ve almost been like when I started studying Japanese Canadians. In that, you are not culturally Japanese Canadian at that point. Right. You in fact probably have huge gaps in your knowledge on what proper behaviour is. Indeed, indeed. Uh, because I’m sure, shall we say, the (?) on your part would’ve been tolerated by your parents having cared for and taught by your older brothers and sisters to tolerate them. Yes. Uh, that would not have been tolerated by leaders of the community in Vancouver . Oh that’s right. Um and you wouldn’t have known who the important people were. You wouldn’t have known who to differ to, who to ignore, who to- That’s right. But I had a very good mentor and I mentioned to you the story of (?) speech at (?), didn’t I? Did I mention that? No. Who was your mentor? Well, Sumida. Sumida, okay. Yes. I never told you a little story about when I first came to Vancouver and the Japanese students (?) had a banquet? You had told me only that that was where you first met other Japanese Canadians. Uh-huh. Well when I went there and we were all introduced and each of us were asked to say a few words. And I made a rather... we were just introduced, and I thought as I (?) that the occasion was very stiff and formal. Mhm. And when I was introduced, I just stood up as others looked up and made a few other cheeky remarks (?). To lighten it up. Yes. Ann laughs out loud. (?) to the occasion. I mean, it was college after all! Both laugh out loud. Well, the (?) was, the second generation, the nisei, must be seen but not heard. Yes. Okay. And uh any deviation was obviously a mark of kind of misbehaviour which exposure to the larger community would lead you to. Mhm. I suspect the nisei there probably enjoyed your- Well, maybe. I’m not so sure. Because- Laughs. More likely, they knew you’d committed a (?). Laughs. I think so, yes. But I think that particular occasion was what made me stand out a little bit. Which attracted Mr. Sumida's attention. It would seem to me your main competition for that job of assisting him would have been Shinobu... Higashi . Yes but I think that summer he had gone to (?). Ah because he could make real money there. He could make real money there. And spend some (?) so. Yeah because you note you got your connection there through his brother. Yes, yes. (?) next year, the next summer. Now, I figured you can straighten this out for me. Mhm. I have two documents here. Both of which attributed to Canadian Japanese Associations . The report of the survey of the second generation, 1930 fond. Right. Now, was it the data you collected for this, Shinobu used for his thesis? Sumire. Sumire. Sorry. Art? Yes, yes. Okay because there is another document that I also have managed to pick up somewhere, The Contribution of Japanese to Canada. Summary of the Role Played by the Japanese in the Development of the Canadian Commonwealth. And it's dated 1940. Now I do note, in the New Canadian that you were supposed to be part of some Nisei group studying economic matters in the Japanese community. I believe the article is from ‘39 I think it is. And I was wondering if this was the product of that. Maybe we should turn it off and let me take a look at it. Sound of something being moved. Canadian Japanese Society, the (Ojin?)-kai to help finance it. So was the JCCA that... Ann’s sentence sut short. The JCCL at the time. JCCL that got the Canadian Japanese Association to finance the survey- Yes. ...some of which was used later in Sumire’s thesis? That's right. I remember that summer of 1935. The people who were working on it come from time to time to Sumire’s rooming house and uh there would be some discussion about it. And of course it was at the same time that the trip to Ottawa was undertaking. So you could push on for recognition and these survey results were supposed to help but ended (?). Yeah. Um Shinobu was one of the interviewers, Kaz (Tobidaka?) was another one. Short pause. But this was... a little over, above me. After all, I was only an short assistant to Mr. Sumida, very young and (?). (?) unlike Sumire (?) Shiga, and Dr. Banno (?) the driving forces (?). And Ernie Yamaoka (?) architect. When was that? After the war? After the war. No, no. In fact, he had been studying architecture. He was in the states apparently. His father was a very prominent Japanese businessman in the Powell lumber yards which of course (?). His sister became an optometrist. Mhm. Long pause. The other sister married John Shimotakahara, the doctor. Mhm. Sachi? Sachi... long pause. They were a little older. Mumbles. Very fortunate for you. It was. (Crucial?) So you were the office boy for them? Yes. Mhm, mhm. (?) I was not understanding. Rather like your description of Jean Chretien when he first attended the meeting you folks were at. Yes! Laughs out loud. Quite so. With Mitchell Sharp? Yes. So that doctor, Aihara, surely the results were very important. And, but I don’t quite remember that second document that you mentioned. Okay. Maybe we should take a look at it. Recording may have been stopped once. 01:40:40 It might well be that in terms of the writing, 1940, someone like Eiko Henmi might’ve helped. But I would... don’t... I don’t think I’ve ever used the term, for example, enterprisers. Okay. Long pause. This would be information Kunio would have access to? Yes. Mhm, mhm. And Aiko... er... Ei- Eiko. Eiko. I always murder her name and I feel so guilty about it. She would have um... been a graduate by that point too would she? She graduated about the time you did. She would have graduated in 1940. Long pause. That would be the same time Kay Kato Shimuzu graduated. Yes. (?) summary I had written in hopes to present facts (?) I would not have been (?) at it. Mumbles. Mhm. So there’s a certain Japanezey twist to the language. Which Kunio of course would inevitably had. Yes. Mhm. His degree... he’s a Mathematician is he not? And Physics. Math and Physics. And he would have graduated at the same time as you? That’s right, 1938. Mumbles. Long pause. I mean, I knew he worked as a mathematician in Ottawa so I figured his Bachelors would have been... Long pause Ouchi’s degree was in what? Ouchi? I actually had the impression he had graduated before ‘38. No. He didn’t finish until ‘38. I am not sure... History? Was a BA (Bachelor of Arts)? Uh-huh. Okay. Short pause. Did this Kato fellow- He went to Japan . Oh. And he’s still there. Would have had an interesting time in Japan being half Japanese during the Second World War. Yes indeed. His father had some prominent (?) Long pause. You ever run into Iwasaki? Um, not that I’m aware of. Well he and I were quite close during those years. And indeed after, when I first joined the New Canadian he lived in... he was working at the Japanese Consul. I think, no, he was working for short pause one of the Japanese businesses in (?). (?) in Japanese. What was his first name? Ah... Hideo. See, David is only involved in the Japanese community in respect to taiko. They have asked him to serve on the Board but he has declined. At this point trying to get his own studies going he couldn’t guarantee he will be there. He’s gonna have to do a lot of traveling, so. Well Iwasaki mumbles . He was (?) go back to his church. He had come from Ocean Falls . So his Japanese was very good. And he graduated and got a job in a Japanese firm. But he lived in a dormitory at the United Church. Long pause. You lived there too. Oh, I lived there. That was the episode that someone told me about. (?) Shimizu was kind of concerned that I was coming in late like 11 o’clock or later. After all, I thought (?), that’s when I went to live with the Higashi’s. This would have been after graduation? Yes. Yes when (?) ran the newspaper and I well, I would be at the office or attending some event or some other (?) I would go back to the Church or the dormitory (?) climb up the stairs. And I mumbles . Both laughs. And you moved to whos? To live with Shinobu Higashi . Oh right. And Yoshimitsu. Yeah because of course Shinobu was married and his wife would have enabled to provide for you folks. But he had left by this time. Oh I see. So basically (?) Yoshimitsu and his mother and father. The fact that he had left (?). All right. Long pause. Yoshimitsu and I shared a room. Of course, you were both working for the New Canadian . Yes, yes. (?) was surprised when I was late. Laughs Anyways, (?) rather than formal. Well I could imagine two living in a church. Pressure on you to conform to certain levels of behaviour et cetera (?) been hired to. Yes, yes. And the first year I was there teaching Sunday school which made it even more (?). So you lived there for about a year or so? Yes I guess so. Short pause. 1939. Missing sound or fixing tape. 01:48:03 Here, now it’s working. Sound of fixing tape. Yeah, you, communities were very lucky to have a single man, such as yourself, available and Kunio to assume all those responsibilities. Yes. Well, hmm. ‘Cause I mean I know Harold Hirose was also a single man who did a lot of the equivalent responsibilities of the Steveston area. But really without, as soon as you marry, and you had all those, if someone had married and had family (?), they couldn’t work in the community. They couldn’t afford to. That’s right. Mumbles. Instead of living in (?) in the New Canadian . Right. Yoshimitsu was (?) of course. He mumbles situation as I was. And he had his parents of course to provide. That’s right. Well his parents, his father was a minister of the church and taught mumble . Which church was that? (?) Gospel at the Angelical Church. Okay. It was a church which I guess a (?) person had founded in Southern California . Oh so that’s (?). No, no. No? It was the fundamental church in the (?) Gospel. Hm, okay. Not the one I’m familiar with. No. Well you don’t hear it much these days. But uh Shinobu tells stories of how they used to, just down the corner, (?). He would beat the gum. Just like the Salvation Army . (?) and there was a small congregations. It’s remarkable how many small (?) attracted attention (?) the Japanese community. It still does. Was it a big Japanese church? Oh yes. Reverend Higashi, the priest was Japanese and his wife was active. Did they get converted to this in Japan or? I’m not sure about that background unfortunately. But uh it was right next door (?) the Minsu Newspaper. These little connections I suppose. Oh another aka connection. Laughs. In a sense. Although there was nothing aka I found gospel (?), you know. Oh, no. Those churches are... Yeah. Yes. Minshu was. The Minshu was the... The daily newspaper. Yeah. Maeba worked for them didn’t he? Maida? Mmm? Your printer eventually? No. Was the Tairiku Nippo that he worked with? The Tairiku Nippo? Yes. That’s right. And he had Mr. Tsuji, who ran the press parts. Was he- He was employed by the Taiyo Printing company . He went with us to Kaslo . Of course, all the Japanese (?) must’ve joined you after the uprooting. Yes. Is he in any relation to Mr. Tsuji in Toronto now? I don’t know him very much. He might be but you know it’s quite a common name. Oh I see. (?) grand ambition for his church. He spent one year at BBC. Mumbles. She married (?). Long pause. When you started printing in Japanese, as you mentioned to me, Genistein , I gather, says they paid the New Canadian (?) paid, what, 500 a month or something. Yeah. I was talking to Frank Moritsugu about this but the amount he recalls is the same as you recall. A hundred dollars a month. Tom: Mhm. For the and only for the (?). That was primarily, that was how it started. And then it became awkward and they agreed to (?) as well. Mhm. Until, I guess it was ‘43. Uh it might be ‘44. Because it would have been after we had, I had made a trip in ‘43 to eastern (?). And Mr. (?) made a trip to Trinity High. Mumbles. I may (?) about that. It made more sense to me, you know. Well I noticed that in my first interview with you in 1976. That was one of the first things you have in there is that you personally opposed the concept of the detention. Mhm, mhm. Did you ever sort of canvas with people like Taylor, if possible, would’ve directly relocated east in ‘43? Well there was indeed a fair amount of that. Indeed moving (?) was part of that. Mhm. And uh, for example like (?) who went to London , Ontario . Mhm. Like the Sunaharas right now. Yes, yes. Mumbles. Yeah. And there was a group that went, Frank, to Hepbern’s farm. Mhm. There was a group that went to the (Beansville?) area. Yeah. Uh, and then there were many number of families that went to various places in BC . Yeah. More or less on their own. (?) Et cetera, et cetera. All of this made more sense. Yeah. To avoid, as you mentioned there, the detention mentality too. Yeah. Mhm. I think a lot of people decided to go to Japan directly instead of being relocated to Tashme (?). They might have been able to build a little basis to build some hope. Yes. Mumbles something. I get the impression that mostly teenagers, the youngest being ten or so. Mhm. But you know, even at the age of ten (?) Oh yes, yes. I have a picture of a family of four basically. Mother, father, two kids, and the youngest kid must only be about eight. Mhm. That I used for my, my historical display heritage (days?). Tom: Mhm. So I brought it home. So you know the (?) emergency. That subsisted for a long, long time. Mumbles something. In uh, my research I told you I came across some stuff by Robert Norman, Reverend Norman. In relation to the account of the meeting that you got into trouble with the army, declaring yourself as a Canadian. You also had an account of um an incident in the early uprooting where the uh first group of nisei had refused to go and were sleeping at the Tairiku Nippo ? Mhm. And (?) and Reverend Black and eventually you and I don’t know if Kunio was there. But you ended up there. Mhm. And um he addressed in Japanese and you had apparently, according to him, just come from a meeting with Taylor. And which Taylor had (ripped a strip?) off you because the sansei or the nisei had failed to turn up. Um I’m looking for to see if- Missing audio. 01:57:41 You’re right. I don’t exactly remember what that was. But this is my recollection and I think I wrote this up in a (?) edition of the New Canadian. Some time after I had been in Regina . Okay. But as I recall, the (?) had received notices to report mumbles . The bulk of them were issei and nisei from the west coast, (?) Ucluelet . Mhm. And other places like that. Tofino ? Tofino, right. So they had limited (?). Limited contact with the larger Canadian community. Just why they were chosen to go, I don’t know what to say other than that (?) et cetera. Mhm. Getting out of there. Mumbles. So, there's a mention here, a day's delay. Uh, and uh, there was a good deal of confusion about it all the uncertainty and the potential of course. Uh, and they had come to the town hall because this was where we were (?) the New Canadian . I had a new office set up there (?) editorial office. Mhm. So I had spoken to them. They said this is very important and there seemed to be a, if I remember, (?) they agreed to go. And they were supposed to report that evening mumbles (station?). And as it turned out, they eventually changed their minds and said they had to go. That’s how they congregated again at the second story meeting room. Noise of flipping paper . So uh, early the next morning I was, Kunio and I were both summoned to the Security Commission . And uh, we had a session with three members. Taylor, Mead , and Shirras . Taylor was quite angry. Shirras didn’t say much other than well you know, he said, I’ve said barbed wired camps for everybody as the only solution, and stuff like that. It’s his personality? Yes. And then they left and we were left with Mead . Mead said to us that they have been informed that Kunio and I had both been in constant contact with the Japanese Consul. Who at the time was (?). We were quite stunned by this because mumbling we had no contact whatsoever. And of course we assumed more or less that Morii kept on giving us the information (?). Then at the same occasion Mead said to both Kunio and I that uh he understood our position. (?) He was, his job was to deal with lawbreakers, criminals. (?) He was here to give us each a permit to go anywhere in Canada (?) wanted. And that was not easy to get at that time. Short pause. Mhm. So that essentially ended the interview as I would call it. But uh, we went back to the hall and it was at that stage where this meeting took place. Um, and the, I think I was very angry and (outraged?). And shortly after the speeches the police arrived. And uh, all those who (?) were arrested. One thing I could’ve mentioned during the discussion was the Security Commission . We were accused of having hidden the group of men away. And I (?) to hide right across the street from the police station. Yeah. I had noticed when I heard of the (?) episode why would they do this? (?) or something. (?) from the police station. Kunida tried to hide away from detention because he lived right across from the police station. Anyway, that was how it turned out. And then uh we thought something had to be done and tried. We had a list, we knew the second group to go were nisei from (?) Mhm. Including Kunio Shimizu ’s brother. So we spent the day trying to get in touch with as many of them as we can. And asked them to come to the meeting. And this was quite a different (thing?) Yeah. And it was much more (contrary?) at the time. Well, yeah. This is another illustration of how the authority saw the Japanese Canadian group in the (office?) anything but (?). Anything like expecting natives from Northern Saskatchewan and natives from (?) to be the same. Right. So they went ahead and reported their advisor to (?) underway. Of course there were the few other glitches like the guy that went down the immigration in May and demanded to be interned. Oh yes. And there were certainly others who were ordered to report and (?). But there were no mass mumbles: (?) to use that word ... There was no mass resistance as such. But it’s more a characteristic is it not? Uh, someone who is more inculturated to a village Japanese culture to want to follow the consensus of the group- That’s right. And where the group cannot form a consensus to simply do nothing. Yes. Which seems to have been the case for the first group. Well other than it was doing nothing, basically bombarded as a group. Oh Mead would really be sort of, I suppose, one leader in there. Yes, yes. And I wasn’t able to follow some of the conversation. Kunio maybe knew what was going on. Perhaps yes. And he was sort of hard to understand. Yes of course because his Japanese was modern Japanese too. Well he knew what they were saying but he couldn’t necessarily agree with their views. Oh right. That’s why- Right. Was Kunio a cool-headed type when he didn’t agree with people? No he was quite hot tempered. I thought... That was the genuine impression that I got too. Yes indeed. So if somebody started talking what he thought was (?) he would dismiss them and argue with them? Mhm. Mhm. I remember I went to a meeting at the JCC Centre in Toronto once for some kind of anniversary dinner. Mumbles. Wes Fujiwara was there. And uh his father-in-law. Mhm. And I remember saying that I regretted (?) in the at particular (?) and I apologized (?) anyone and to them all. I (?) harsh (?) for the member I was (?) and was very young. (?) responsibilities (?). And I remember Wes saying to me after that his father-in-law really appreciated the apology. Well I know Muriel also spoke of this time as well. Worried about whether her brother will come (by?) or not. Uh-huh. Young brother. Yes, her younger brother. Yes, the one that worked as a (cowboy?) in Alberta. And she’s very, very concerned that even he had culture (?). Yes. He would resist Tom: Oh. ... He does in a way. In that he won’t board the bus or the train. He takes the taxi. Oh I see laughs . I don’t recall having (?). It’s in her letters. He won’t, he’s not going to get on a bus with a RCMP officer with the rest of them. He and a couple of his friends took a taxi down and walked in without any military people around with all these military people around (?). Yes. In a way, it’s not surprising that those were, most of them were incarcerated and also could’ve been the most angry. You know, that they are also part of Canadian society. Their rights were being tampered upon. Well yeah, they were the ones who were the most disappointed. Quite by dissolution. Do you, in that episode, no one seems to be making a great deal about Taylor’s behaviour. Of course this morning (?) spoke with Taylor and he had a heavy-hand personality Charlie Tanaka mentions on several occasions with me in my interviews. And I got the impression that Taylor was the kind of person who in that kind of situation would bluster. Yes, yes. Right. And it is very lucky that he did try to rip a strip off of you. Oh yeah. Oh yes there’s a (?). (?) very critical (?). Mhm. You have to wonder how Mead would feel at the end of the day having to work with two such people like Taylor and Shirras . I think (?) I’m sure. Yes. And he would have had the (?) of the bureaucracy at the time (?) politicians. Mumbles. (?) Mhm, mhm. Mumbles. Mhm. So that certainly had (?) I thought that we were all hanging around on campus. And while I did work hard to get in touch with (?). Actually that (?) to have believed that uh minister, Minister of Finance was on the way out (?) Norman put down. Norman references in Muriel Kitagawa ’s letters which means that (?) communicated out to her. And in fact, it was (?) who was on his way out. But it was the Chief of General Staff that was on his way out. He actually flew out to the coast at that time and fired Alexander. Ken Stewart. Really. Yes. He came out and reorganized the Pacific command. Of course, he would have no contact (?) authority while he was doing it. Mhm. Certainly nothing to do with the British Columbian Security Commission because he was taking the position that it was a civilian matter not a military matter. Mhm. Um, but it was in that period and that’s why the rumour got going. Because Stewart was on the way out. But what he was on his way out to do was to fire Alexander. Well he didn't fire him, he made him Inspector General. He promoted him. He knew about Alexander’s view-? He thought he was unstable. Alexander was recommending that Japanese races be uprooted and drawing all these dire lines of potential over-reacting as far as the (?) in Ottawa (?) people were concerned. Uh-huh. And that meant Alexander had to be moved. And so they promoted him to Inspector General. (?) going around camps inspecting. I see. At military camps and such. Having dubious distinctions and taking in inquiries in Terrace , BC after there was a riot there. Among the, what do they call it, the zombies. Oh. The fellows who refused overseas services. And so while you, well, Norman (made?) doubt the degree of concern there are other sources that support your point of view. Mhm. Besides which the way British were treating the German Jews in England (?) barbed wires. Confining them on the (?). I don’t know if any of those rumours had reached Canada at that point. No but there were words of the American situation (?) behind barbed wires, the army, well essentially they were in a war camp. How did you know the American situation? Did Mead tell you? No, they were in the newspapers (?). Ah. They were still publishing. (?) and then they started to publish newsletters from the camps (?). END OF TAPE 4, SIDE A You should know that not all Japanese in Canada could possibly be (?). Mhm. The, the British Intelligence officer, Mulally? Mulally. He thought you were typical. (Sparling?) thought you were typical. Laughs Oh yes. Well I was. Otherwise- Well, I don’t think you were typical at all to be frank. Tom is still laughing. I mean, quite frankly I suspect that the fellows on the west coast of Vancouver are often Cumberland or down in Steveston far outnumbered you guys. And that, that is more typical of the nisei male than you were. Somebody who could understand Japanese, who is uh comfortable in the Japanese Canadian social media who is not particularly well educated. That’s true. Or well spoken. True. And who um will do okay in life. But who will work hard all the time and not particularly be in a high class occupation. Well yes. Primarily because educational opportunities were hard to come by. Yes. For everybody. For everybody. Yes. I suppose even our small group proportionately was, in relation to our age group, was not (?). Oh yeah. I think some (?) in the Japanese Canadian societies were overrepresented in universities (?) group. For sure. That being cultural. Mhm. There was one other episode. Did I ever share with you the Harry Tsuchiya version of another meeting that you had? That he claims he and some of his buddies came in to beat you and Kunio up one night? And you talked them out of it? Laughs out loud. And Harry claims that you diffused their... They were going to do something as he puts it. Because you were being studious to the BCSC . And that you diffused their attack because you didn’t respond to their attempts by talking to them as a group. You began to talk to them individually saying, Well Harry, Shin-, whatever the other guys' names were. You talked to each of them individually and you basically challenged them to do something to help the Japanese community. And Harry says that’s how he ended up getting involved in Japanese Canadian welfare. Uh-huh. This was during the evacuation period. Yes. And before he went to Kaslo . Yeah it was before Kaslo. Because he was still in Vancouver. He said that, well in his version that of course he’s the most straight-wise person you know. So of course you’d get him the job of handling some of the problems like these women who had been left without support having emerged from their houses. Oh yes, that’s right. Yes indeed. I remember him now, yes. And he got very interested and worked very hard. So it could’ve very well been an accurate statement. Okay. Laughs. Yes. I didn’t know whether you remembered this episode but I did think it was a very, very good way of handling that kind of a situation. Laughs. Well, I mean, you know, during that time things were happening so fast and so many people had been coming to talk about what to do and what was going to happen et cetera, et cetera. And people were being assembled at Hastings Park . Buck Suzuki , and Eiji Yatabe Mrs. Tsuchiya. Yes. Yes, She tells me that he persuaded her to go to Kaslo. Kaslo. Mhm. To end uh sort of and he made the arrangements by going into uh some health officer’s office. And just sitting there until the guy was there. Laughs. In order to make the arrangements. Mhm, mhm. Short pause. There were a number of volatile people on what became the Japanese Canadian Citizens’ Council . Eiji Honma a very (?) chap. He and (Tammyy?) Kurita used to travel around together. (Tammy?) Kurita was from Ocean Falls. (?) very quiet. Eiji did all the talking. Tammy sort of came along. And they would go around the community- They would yes, yes. Find people who needed help? Indeed, mhm. We had asked Eiji to take the particular responsibility of events (?). Did you spend any time there? No, no. I only went there once or twice because I felt so uncomfortable. And I wasn’t much use there. (?) dealing with people, individual situations. Sound of writing something. I guess after knowing your limitations is a measure of maturity. Laughs. I suppose, I suppose. Sound of writing something. Besides- When groups arrived to go to Hastings Park , one of us had to (?) interpreters like uh Seiji and (Watabe?). Whatever baggage there were to carry. So they were- Especially since some of the women and children coming, you know, their husbands and fathers had been sent off to road camps in uh Yellowhead , in the northern BC area. Oh right, yes. (?) junction. T-zone. He had gone up there as early as what, January I suppose. Yes. My husband’s father went to (Met?) first. Was sent to the (?) first one. I never quite understood why they picked him because I mean he had thr-, two children, at that point. His wife was pregnant with the third. But he was an issei and he had immigrated in the 20s. So he was on the sort of the first list. Uh-huh. And he had no power to resist. And he wasn’t naturalized? No. Well, even if he had been naturalized, the government was treating anyone who had been naturalized in the previous 20 years as if they were not naturalized. And he didn’t even immigrate until 25. I didn’t know that. Yes. That was the evidence I found. I see. They had arbitrarily said 20 years is the cutoff date for loyalty. You mean if they had come 20 years previously, and then naturalized, they were considered loyal. Mhm. But if they... But in the last 20 years... They were not. North Shore (?). Presumably yes. (?). Hm. But um, yeah. Also, I mean my husband’s father was nobody. So I suspect that was one of the reasons Morii and his pals sort of sent (short?) notice on him. Mhm. To go off on the...because it was the 24th of February he was sent. The day before evacuation was announced. When it still was the belief that enough people went then, the rest would not be affected. Yes. Well the line, the official line was enemy aliens. They were (bodied?) as enemy aliens. Well he would’ve been (?) enemy alien. Right. As was Yoshimitsu, Higashi . So we lost (?). And that was a real loss because... We lost um, um Kinzie Tanaka that way too. Kinzie Tanaka, right. Mhm. And (?) went off to Vernon. So that was while we were running the newspaper. (?). That’s when Frank came in as a student. Right. Well he had turned up the previous before that actually. And Roy Ito also turned up. So that was really helpful I guess. And Seiji Onizuka (?). Yeah I noticed his name on the letterhead. Mhm. What was his... Was he uh writing in English or Japanese? In English. He was just a young kid. Who was Russ (McAnnis?)? Short pause. He might’ve been a... Laughs I don’t quite remember. Sounds like you a bit. Yeah, it must’ve been me. Okay I wasn’t sure because there are a couple of good articles by Russ (McAnnis?) that I was wondering about. We didn’t have many writers, you know. No. Tom laughs out loud. I know that uh Muriel was also Suesada. Sueseda. I’m not sure how to pronounce it. And it was Ai... Ei...Eiko also cinderella? Yes. Uh-huh. Okay. Small laugh. (?) initials K. W. Yeah. Okay. So if I see K. W. that’s Shoy(?). Low voice Cinderella, I think it was Eiko. She became known as Cindy. Yeah. Both give a small laugh. ‘Cause you know- Did your sister do any writing? No. She was too busy working at the hospital. And then at Hastings Park . That’s right. That’s right. Um, I was told that in the early days of the New Canadian you had so little money that (?) had to help you. That’s no, that’s not accurate. No. Okay. No. Sound of writing something. (?) Johnston came and I (?). And I hadn’t known quite what happened. I think his family mumbles. I don’t know quite what had happened. Oh, it was easy enough in those days before social (?). Oh yeah. Mhm. Mumbles. So it wasn’t the case that once you graduated that you didn’t see him anymore or you’d see him periodically? Oh, rarely. Yeah. Yes, yes. But he was still running (?) in Kamloops you know. It was called (?). Was there any pressure to join them rather than stay with the paper or? No, no. I was fortunate in that regards that uh you know the brothers who (?) business improved. Mhm. They got several contracts by it was the missions people of Kamloops and uh (?). And they got contract supplies and stuff. And then there was a new evacuation arriving, settling in Kamloops. Many of them passed through the stores, talked to my father in Japanese. Was your... Your mother would’ve been alive Tom: Yeah. because she didn't die until ‘50s though. 1951. Yes. Must’ve kept a few cobwebs off his brain with so many people talking to him in Japanese. Yes indeed. Laughs. Well I did think it was interesting but yet we were poor. The native people used to come across the river from the Reserve. Mhm. And they would tend to come in groups, and they would sit in the store (?) saying a word. Mhm. But they would be asking for day-old cakes and... Mhm. (?) the reduced price. And he seemed to have a good (terms?) with them. (?) cake (?) cheap. I just heard that from time to time. He would call them Chief or...? Yeah, you know, someone would speak to him and (?) him and say, Yes, Chief. So usually (?). Clears throat. He was also on good terms with David Fultan’s father. Mhm. Who I thought at one time had been the Attorney General of BC but was a (?) member of the legislature. (?) follow a lawyer. And he has been a lawyer for life on. So their association (?) noise of paper flipping first arrived in Kamloops during the First World War. Shoji also had schizophrenia (?) issues were. Yes, of course. (?) into politics. Always (?) with the family. Mhm. Audio missing. 02:29:01 It was a (?) as a dentist at a (?). Oh of course yes. That’s where mumbles . Laughs. I gather Dave Murakami rather treasures this memory of this (?). Tom laughs. But David , my husband, loves these stories because he uh he uses them as an example of the proper exercise of discretionary power by the police officers. Mhm, mhm. And you have a stupid law. Or like the David Suzuki ’s father tells a story of being caught fishing. And the officer called, asking him for a string and a hook. And it wasn’t to take his equipment, which I gather that even back in those days Carr had good equipment. But he was obeying the letter of the law because his spirit was so repulsive. Mhm. And my husband uses this when he has to give an example of the proper exercise of discretion by police officers. Right. (?) was very human and popular you know. (?) camp from time to time when we drove to New Denver. Asked if they’d like to join along. That was a pretty (?). We had to drive to New Denver (?) Yosemite Road. That can still be a bit of an adventure nowadays. Laughs. Oh yes. But nowhere compared to what it used to be. And one of the girls always just said I park. Yeah, yeah, he was a gentleman. The old school. Perhaps that was why he was picked with (San Rosh?). Because he was the kind of man who you would live with for seven months and not want to strangle. I think that’s very good. Very good point. The other two, well the other three, are RCMP people (?) Sergeant Barnes who was (?). And his assistant was Corporal Davision who also played a very large role in deficits. And then, I don’t know what his (?) was, (?) who was of course (?) to speak Japanese. He was with the RCMP? Mhm. Perhaps a Special Constable? Special Constable, something like that, yes. Seems to me that (the night of?) Pearl Harbor , Barnes and (Masumi?) (?). (?) Angelical Church, I still have recollection of (?). With little, little (?) that day. And we were talking about the events of (going back?). I was advised (?) that time mumbles . That we could continue to (?) as usual. Yeah there’s an account in the Idea’s Program uh how you found out about Pearl Harbor. You were sitting there proposing an editorial. I think the expression used is Nisei-(kumiai?) associated closely at the time but I presumed it was Kunio when I read the thing. Yes, mumbles. I actually think Muriel has him commenting that now they’re going to have to take you into the army now that there’s war with Japan . And he thought it would open up enlistment. Short pause. I don’t quite remember that. May have been something he said when he got to the Kitagawa household. Yeah, maybe. Sure, sure. Missing audio. 02:33:17 ... Hastings Park . Yeah he was actually the... Wasn’t he the Camp Director or something? Yeah, Superintendent- (?) or whatever. Yeah, Superintendent Salt. Actually I have found in doing my research on Mead that he and Mead were brother officers together or uh attended various courses, et cetera together in Regina . Oh is that right. So that’s how they knew each other. They basically, I suppose, had their officer training together. I see. Buck Suzuki and Eiji Yatabe mumbles . Mhm. Mumbles. person. I (?) maybe? Could well be. I didn’t, I mumbles. (?) he had already been retired and he sort of activated, re-activated him for that. I think. I cannot be overly critical of the RCMP. They had a job to do and they did it. That seemed to be as civilized manner as possible at the time. Well... Long pause. Well I know I was most impressed by whoever that fellow was in Lethbridge, the name slipped from my mind now. His reports are wonderful. Are they? They are models of what a good anthropological report should be. Really? Really. They’re very, very, I think they may have... no Andrew was the Security Commission. I saw his name in some BC Security Commission papers because some of these reports ended up (?). Mhm. This fellow was quite excellent. I really would’ve liked to found out how he ended his career because he certainly showed promised (ends?). Missing audio. 02:35:08 Best serviceship performed was what readied the west too. Yes. Remember I said- (?), she fell in love with me. Missing audio. 02:35:18 The only thing I’ve seen about (Intrepet?) is the letter from Commissioner Wood to (Intrepet?). I’m not sure that I have seen the letter that instigated the letter from Wood. Although I did see a report that (Intrepet?) forward to Wood by quote, an agent of his in Vancouver, which I believe is J. W. McPherson. The uh Custodian ? Yes. Future Custodian at that point. And uh it contains a number of gross distortions which were basically hearsay rather than fact. Mhm. I can’t recall the other name in that. Missing audio. 02:35:57 I should get that odd (?) out. You can tell me at the end. Laughs. My perception of Mr. Trudeau and that particular guy. Well I should know, media and many, I guess, critics always tried to suggest uh (?) arrogance on his part. And I (?) these arrogance. All the work I did with him, observed him at work and Cabinet Committees, he was really a model of considerate patience. He would listen to endless arguments that I felt almost impossible to accept myself and I would mutter under my breath at times, Come on Prime Minister, let’s get on with the meeting. Hurry up and listen to all this nonsense. But he would sit there, listen carefully and try to recline in a very constructive way. Almost professorial. Almost professorial. Yes, indeed. I supposed that’s laughs I’ll have to be more professorial myself. I sometimes have the impression that the public arrogance was much a way of dealing with the press. It was a useful, useful tool for him. Useful tactic for just... He didn’t have to be patient with the Press. He did have to be patient with his Cabinet. Well yes, I think that may be so. And as you say (?) statement in Winnipeg , he was being pressed by farmers about the wheat situation and he asked the question, Why should I sell your wheat?. I’m sure he intended it as a debating point, to raise the question as to the appropriate role of the Canadian Wheat Board. But of course, it was widely interpreted (?) indifference to the wheat farmers. That wasn’t what he intended at all. No. Long pause. Mumbles something a really complicated one. Mmm. And I’d share that this is the right thing to- Missing audio. 02:38:17 So you agree one, number one of (Mike Masao?) because reasons in numbers. And number two because you found a Japanese invasion impossible to take. Yes. Well, very hard to believe (?). But you were not doing it in panic. No. Alleged in BC at the time. No, (?) was possible (?). Missing audio. 02:38:43 Mats Oka has a much larger group of people that he’s (?) with. Yes, but my response has always been the Japanese Canadians must’ve recognized right off that resistance, physical resistance was not possible. Oh, well, in terms of (?) some validity to that for sure. That uh resistance to support all the anti-Japanese feeling. Yes. Mumbles something. Well even the, to some extent I had the impression the JCCC ... would it be (JCC)L at that point? Small laugh. That time (?) evacuation was part of the JCCC. The Council. I got the impression that the Council opposed anything (?) evacuation group because it had to be used by (?). Right, yeah. Missing audio. 02:39:53 Well Frank, I think that his uh act of getting sympathy from other coloured groups was impossible too because primary other colour groups were Chinese or Filipino, et cetera, who were violent. In fact most acts of violence against Japanese Americans were committed by Philipinos. Mhm. Missing audio? 02:40:10 What was going on in Canada would have been... short pause Tom and Ann at the same time: Used- Used and observed by people in Japan . Yeah, um, interestingly, Hugh Keenleyside talks often. He has memos of the government press. He had the leverage so he can use- Mhm. That actions taken against the Japanese Canadaians would be used by Japanese propaganda. Mhm. And possibly have negative amplification in Candians in Japanese hands. Um, but you did not consider that to be, you didn’t even consider Japan would notice what was going on with Japanese Canadians. Or cared. Laughs. (?) care but yes. Missing audio. 02:40:47.296 I suppose our equivalent to Terminal Island is uh places like some of the coastal out ports around Tofino , Ucluelet where they had just a few hours to pack up and leave. And literally, well I heard descriptions of people who walked through those communities afterwards and dinners were still on the table. And most of the belongings were still there. Um, after all those years I’m sure they’d lose it but basically yes, Terminal Island was the American equivalent of being forced to move just a few moments notice. (?) dramatic incident too, wasn’t it? It was actually done by the army though. (?) soldiers out of panic and the allusion that these were dangerous people (?) press exploited to the people... Missing audio 02:41:37 ...Concerned with protecting the property of Japanese Canadians. You seemed to, your editorials focused more on rights and dignity than upon actual economic concerns. As if that was an issei matter. Yeah. I guess that’s the way I took it (?). ‘Cause I think, nisei didn’t have much property in those days, did they? No. (?) guys like Charlie Tanaka . Well, yeah. Charlie was issei. Mumbles something (Did he consider himself nisei?) Apart from the fishing boats I doubt very much if nisei owned all that much. And they had an interest in fishing boats because by that time they would’ve taken over from their parents working those boats. I think perhaps I never believed that properties be confiscated and therefore it would naturally (?). Okay. Well, and perhaps it coordinated with your idea of British fairplay. Mhm. But I think- Missing audio. 02:42:36 (?) certainly (?) legal way (?) resistance inaudible . Old men and old women. They- Or even young people like the Yoshimitsu and Tanakas way up in Jasper or Yellowhead Pass (?). (?) legally to resist it, morally (?) it either. No. And I guess I recall (?) many of the naturalized immigrants or who were become naturalized in order to get fishing license were as nationalistic (?) Japan as those not naturalized. So you thought alienage was an artificial distinction. Quite artificial. Indeed some were- And some were illegal. Yeah, even some of those aliens may have well been more Canadian than- Oh yes. The naturalized. Right. Mhm. Especially those (?). (?) number of those, as we mentioned. Or people like Kinzie Tanaka who were so totally committed. Exactly. It was a shock to him to discover he was an alien. I don’t even think... did he know he was an alien before the registration? Oh, oh he must’ve known that because he was born in Japan. Mhm. But having (?) sent to road camps (?). Yes um, that I think is a major difference between Canada and the United States. Right. The separation of the men and the panic over whether they would see. What (?) to me is I have discovered, I don’t know if you were aware, the habit of families to have their family picture taken just before they get removed. Mhm, mhm. And each person would take a copy just in case they never got back together again. Mhm. (?) in the sense that people of Asianic origins were ineligible for citizenship, were they not? True. So you didn’t have the distinct difference between the naturalized Canadians of Japanese origin and non-naturalized. Yes. In Canada of course getting naturalized became almost impossible in the 20s and thereafter. Quite difficult to do at least. Right. Um but yes, the Americans did not have that category in the middle. (That were?) Canadians by adoption. Mhm, mhm. Missing audio. 02:45:56 I think that there’s a positive and negative aspect to that whole question. The question that rise (?) resistance (?) benefits were. (?) developed, difficult for the authorities of Canada. Mhm. (?) diverted resources (?). Something which of course Canada doesn’t have to be concerned at the moment with the Native’s resistance. I think I would have to agree differently in accepting the notion that we had to be evacuated on our end and cooperate with the evacuation order in order to prove we were prepared to be (seen?) as Canadians. So you did not see cooperation as a demonstration of loyalty which was how it was promoted in the states. No, no. Like merely a practical consideration. Very practical one, exactly. So the (base?) to prove your loyalty is not your style. I didn’t think so. Mumbles. Well again, I would have difficulties with that argument. Short pause. There may well have been some validity to it but I haven’t thought of it as necessary. Because they were not ready to be supporters and friends in the long run. (?) principal in doing, well, I didn't think it was important (?) ourselves with our friends. You were reasonably certain of the sincerity of your friends- Oh yes because they had to take quite courageous stands- Mhm. You know, beforehand. That’s some cost to themselves and their prestige. People like Angus and- Right, right. And there weren’t very many. No. Keenleyside. Keenleyside. But I didn’t really know much about which side Keenleyside may have been taking over. And he wasn’t really in a position he could take a public stand other than in his official reports. Mhm. Quite voice: ‘Cause, uh- In many ways you actually had more friends than you knew you had. Well, that may have been the case. Yes. ‘Cause quite I’m sure you didn't know that the Chief of General Staff was caught fighting against the uprooting of Japanese Candaians too. We were told that but uh (?) wasn’t going to make that known publicly was he? At the time? Who took.. Who told you? Uh, uh, it may have been that you told me. Oh, okay. I don’t know laughs , sorry. I was wondering if you knew at the time. No. Not at that time. Not at all! Not at all. You- Indeed you see, the whole notion was look, if you have to accept this evacuation then (?) first reason. But the military had come to that conclusion. I kind of accepted that. The military had come to that conclusion because it was necessary. And it would have come to me as a surprise that the Chief of General Staff was in fact uh of a different view entirely. Uh, so you hadn’t even been told by your government the military had reached this decision. At this point, you did not know it was not a military but a political decision. Exactly, exactly. This is why your book was so valuable. Ah, okay. I (?) accepted the notion that the military had some evidence (?). There may have been some reason that... we didn’t know anything about. We couldn’t really say anything about various fishing outposts. Well they may have actually found out about these so-called maps, hydrographic maps and so forth we had always seemed to (?). Yeah. Well, what might have turned up in this fishboat or that fishboat. Was there, do you think there was a great deal of searching in the Japanese community to try and find traitors (at least on your end?)? Oh no. No. ‘Cause- Well, there weren’t any (?). That’s true. But uh, there wasn’t any way we really could’ve known the real situation they had been saying in Queen Charlottes . True. True, communication was so poor. Right, mhm. It’s hard to imagine nowadays because we have everything but- Yeah. Yes, you could have whole communities in the Queen Charlottes without contact with- Oh yeah. Powell Street . That time, day I didn’t even know for example, my sister’s in-laws were living in (Prince) Ruperts but had some active (interest?) on the Queen Charlottes . Mhm. And if I recall, we didn’t even have any (subscribers?) up there. Well they were very Japanese speaking. Uh- Very much so. Yes- Communities up there. Mhm. Long pause. And talked... you pretty much, there was quite a (?) I wouldn’t say Japanese nationalism but at least they were uh patronized as a community. Even more Japanese than Steveston . Mm. Well yeah, Steveston would’ve been influenced by Vancouver . Exactly, exactly. But Ucluelet was a- Very isolated. Yeah. Yes, that is true. They very seldom even got down to Victoria . Oh yeah. Mhm. It’s hard for Candadians today to imagine the degrees of isolation in various parts of our country at that time. Which was just 50 years ago. Mhm. It was still quite a major (?) drywall with Mission . Yes. With that (?) Yes, yes. Let alone Kamloops . Let alone Kamloops. The Okanagan has (?) there. And communities like Ocean Falls (?) Japanese community. (?) isolated except by boat. (?) Woodfire. Cumberland . Cumberland. Port Alice , those places. So, I say, I think I may have written something which was on the lines of (?). And I would not have accepted the notion that there was (?) of that kind. What if the military, and or the presumption was (?). And recommended the (?). Then there’s (?), you had to cooperate with him. Resistance would (?). Yes. Of course not knowing the military were being used. (?) by the politicians. Yes. Yes. No. (?) mind that. Yes. In fact, the only military politicians were quoting legitimately were bound from the top. Right. And I think I told you, (Robert?), he got removed. Small laugh. Mumbles something. Common sense, I think? Inaudible. I think he started to train but he never actually, I don’t think he ever actually completed his training. He uh sort of had to sit out for a year to sort of collect finances or something. And uh the war started and he’s just a lobbyist. I see. Just a lobbyist? Laughs. Well, I mean a very effective lobbyist. Like half of the JCCL . Perhaps one of the most senior lobbyists in Washington by the time he was (?) connection with Grace Urahara who succeeded him and did the lobbying for redress. And I had a fascinating discussion on how she would act to make to motivate, and the links they had. They had a Senator they had, (?) was going to vote the right way. They had contacts in church groups and his ridings (?) maked sure that he got the right phone calls from that state. Mhm. You know, to make sure they voted the right way. Very sophisticated organization set up down there. Mhm. Audio missing 02:55:22 Last comment of his is interesting. Yes. If we blundered in ‘42, it was a(the?) failure to resist detention after removal. It’s two different issues. Was there ever, ever emphasizes ever distinct attention, legally or otherwise or was it presumed that the end of the war was acted as futile? No, because it seemed to me that um the concept of detention after removal had not (?) itself. The Centers were so called ghost towns. You had temporary (places?) that (?). (?) might not be detained. This was the difference I suppose (?) Americans because they set up camps with barbed wires (?) tower and the (?) army. The detention was more overt. Detention was more overt and it was run by the army. Yeah. So in that sense it seemed almost like there were no (accounts?). Whereas the whole notion of ghost towns like Greenwood or Kaslo or Slocan being detention centers. You weren’t allowed to travel without a permit (?) permits recognized. Fundamentally, that notion was (?) it wasn’t for the better. And even from the (?) role, people were being given permits to (?). And encouraged to move. Encouraged. Exactly. In fact I found one very interesting memo written by one of the camp (?) who didn’t want schools built because that would encourage people to stay. Yes, yes indeed, indeed. But the original thought was that people would move back to the coast. Possibly, quite possibly. Although, I was always (?) about that myself. Ah, okay. Mumbles something. as an individual I would leave BC . You in ways expected Japanese Canadians would be scattered. I (?) thought yes. Certainly inaudible . Because you couldn’t work in a camp. (?) BC. In many ways it (might’ve?) been the age of the issei. But it really was the nisei at this point that was job seeking. Well, (?) various (?). The older nisei, they were the ones who were job seeking. Inaudible for about one minute. I think I had this feeling of quite racist view in BC about orientals. (?). Yes. And thoroughly exploited. Right. Mumbles. One of the things that always amazes me is how quickly it ended. Yes, me too, me too. And that suggests to me of course, and this is just (?) architectural. Yeah. I did not really (?) significant (?) of threats of violence against Japanese Canadians (?). I may have been a bit naive about that but uh even after Pearl Harbor , you could still travel on the street (in car?) from Powell Street to UBC . Or I’ll go up town and (?) Some people (?) harassed time to time (?). But uh I can't recall any significant incidents of violence or rioting. These (?) politicians (?) make note, but even after the policy it didn’t seem (?). I can recall when a blackout was (lifted?) not too long after Pearl Harbor because (?) military authority. Just going (?) and that kind of thing across the Pacific. Was it before or after the curfew was imposed? It wasn’t imposed until- General black out was from (?). Inaudible. Really, after Pearl Harbor, we had blackouts in Vancouver . Mhm. Inaudible segment. The city of Vancouver (?) the stars came out in Vancouver. Laughs. Missing or in audible at 03:00:49 Which is also an indication of what the authorities thought of the dangers of (?). Exactly. And that would mean for (?). Right, exactly. (?) Too much noise. Very difficult to hear the recording from 03:00:51 to 03:04:03 END OF TAPE 4, SIDE B When he was representing you then he was representing you as a paid attorney? Mhm, mhm. Was the (CJA?)? One who- That’s right. Who paid the bills? That’s right. Yes. You were simply his client? Right. Mhm, mhm. And I don’t even know how he came to be chosen but I take it, you know, there was some, a lot of this before I sort of appeared on the scene in Vancouver. Of course. He was very prestigious. He was QC or KC I guess it would have been in those days. At that time. Yes, yes. Noda had a very good reputation. I’m sure, yes. I’ve only met him perhaps two or three times. I have to confess that when I look back on it, I sort of see the legal profession is failing although they had fewer tools than they had today. Mhm. Uh, Charlie Tanaka told me that they were approached by Hugh Keenleyside ’s brother to represent them at one point. Tom: Oh. Or nephew. One of the two. A Keenleyside and the fellow declined on the grounds he did not have the experience to handle it. But Charlie- Who approached him? Uh, I gather it was either the Kikajin-kai(?) or Charlie Tanaka and some of his, some general colleagues, yes. Sort of an unorganized group. During the evacuation? It was during the evacuation period, yeah. I see. He may even have been trying to get him to represent the Nisei Mass Evacuation guys. At that point I’ll have to go back and look at the interview. Mhm. Also, always of course taking it with a certain amount of salt. Tom: Right. But I could understand why particularly if he was a young lawyer he would feel overwhelmed by the possibility of taking on the Canadian government in such a situation. Yes. On the other hand now of course in hindsight we can see various arguments we could’ve made but it would’ve required somebody who really understood what was going on to be able to see those arguments and appreciate them. (?) at times of course. As you have been suggesting, not only was it a matter of lack of tools but I think a short pause quite a different prevailing value system. Yes. Far more of the, Let authority have the head until the war is over and we’ll sort it out afterwards. Not even worry about the sorting afterwards. Ah. No. Uh- The presumption of the legality of the authority too. Oh indeed. Very much so, of course. This is what I think, I reckon I don’t need to tell you this but when the Sansei, they find what was going on, it’s so difficult to understand because they look at it from the perception from things today. Yes, where we do- There’s the Charter, and the UN Charter of Rights and all that kind of thing. And we no longer presume that our politicians know what they are doing. That’s right. Laughs And I think while, well, we did do it in a much greater sentiment than we did 50 years ago. Well 50 years ago you also didn’t have the information with which to doubt your politicians. Well that’s right, that’s right. Nowadays they can’t do anything without somebody filming them doing it. Yes. Or somebody sending a brown envelope to somebody else. But in those days it would’ve been very, very, very few people would’ve known what was really going on. That’s right, that’s right. And uh, I guess I have to come back to the point that, I was a relative newcomer to the scene that people like Mr. Morii or Charlie Tanaka or Mr. Hisaoka, all these people had been around for a long time before I ever (?) appeared. Patterns of behaviour and perceptions of how best to deal with anti-Japanese feelings. And, you know, had been developed. Over the years, yes. Over the years. That is something else the Sansei would not understand because they don’t... they lack some of the Japanese values like uh- That’s right. Bending to uh oppression and waiting to rise up again. They react more like Canadians. And they take it like a check at a hockey game, and they wanna get that stick back in there. Laughs. And like Canadians of today’s generation, you know? Yes. Canadians of that generation were... had different, as Niseis were from Isseis. Yes, yes. Short pause. The whole mechanism for meeting authority has changed in the last 50 years. And yet- And (?) understanding authority or accepting authority. Laughs. Yeah. Although interestingly Canadians reacted to October 1970 in a very trusting manner to their government. That’s only 20 years ago. Yes. Well that was true outside Quebec . I guess less true for perhaps say Montreal , I'm sure. And uh, again, you know, the main skepticism came from the NDP . Mhm. Short pause. At that time of course there was no NDP. There was the CCF party which was looked upon as radical and wild eyed and dreaming socialites. It was quite- I have to admit, I like the way you have phrased the whole idea of democracy in this ideas program or the clip they took from you. I don't know whether it was made for this program. Democracy and the idea of democracy, constantly changing and that sometimes we surprise ourselves that yesterday’s radicalism is today’s conservatism. Mhm, yes. Small laugh. Oops sorry. Touches tape? Missing audio? 03:10:34 Payoffs our traditional way, shall we say, ethnic groups (?) politicians. By payoffs do they just mean donations to the campaign or? Or uh in a way it was put, rumours were put that these were bribes, not just (?) find some money or something like that. It may have been an alright contribution to the campaign and that kind of thing. Yeah the distinction of course in the minds of those who were paying would not have been that great since they weren’t participating in the process. Exactly, But I remember thinking, that’s kinda stupid. After all, being (?) oriental was sort of the main part of (?) political stand. So even if you paid him up, what guarantee do you have that you’re gonna get any result, particularly if it’s not sort of in their broader interest? Uh, and their main concern of course was to get elected. Mhm. I thought it was a rather futile approach (?) that. But I wasn’t in the position to argue about it. And you only sort of knew about this (?) anyways. Right. Yes. That period in which you were sort of making your way into respectability within the community. And now, you said Shimoda acted as your mentor in the summer. Sumida. Sumida. Yes, sorry. Well I meant mentor in terms of learning something about the community. Mhm. And uh it was a whole day-to-day routine. Okay, you go to the public bath, and I had never been to a Japanese ofuro (bath) before. So that was kind of interesting. (?) all of you had prescriptions, you had to go to the Powell Drug Store because that was the only place with a pharmacist. And it happens to be a hakujin. Because of course uh- They couldn’t have a pharmacist anywhere else. Uh, those little things. Also pressed a certain amount of bowing people (?). The mentorship primarily was in terms of politicization shall I say. Let you know who was who in the community and- Some notion of that. Yes, yes. Uh, I wasn’t even aware that there was such a thing as a Nihonjin-kai (?) had its offices. So as I was saying, mentor Sumida (?) matter: A. Required a lot of knowledge about the Japanese community; B. Leaning a little bit about its value system. Mhm. And of course C. Learn about the day-to-day activity on Powell Street (?). In some ways he seemed to have played the role of that Mariko plays to the Anjin-san in the Shogun. Both laughs. Although it does not seem to have extended to have teaching you very much Japanese. No, no. Both continue laughing. ‘Cause Kono (?) exercise to (?) actually to work on his English. Yes and but also he was teaching you survive skills to some extent since you were- Yeah, that’s fair. Your opportunities you are, were, shall we say greater in the community than without. Or you... the community would be indispensable to you at that point. As a source of employment et cetera. Oh, well you mean that particular summer? Well, yeah and while you were a student at least because- Oh no because after that, I never went back to work in the community. I went every summer to Woodfibre. Oh what I meant was the comm- But surely you found the job in Woodfibre through- Ah- Community. Yes, I suppose one can say that. But this was a matter of the Japanese labour force being part of the corporate strategy. Mhm. Look, we employ these Japanese labourers. They work hard and they don’t get us into trouble and we pay them a low wage. Yeah, and that helps us keep our union in line. Uh- Or were they unionized? They weren’t unionized. No, no. Indeed they were not allowed to union organizers off the boat. I think you mentioned that somewhere in your notes. Yeah, well both you and your housemate had mentioned to me that prostitutes could come in but the Tom laughs union organizers couldn’t. Well on one occasion I do remember that. Ann gives a small laugh. I did (?) that, yes. Interesting enough in the sense that contact with a Chinese cook (?) general manager. That figures, that figures. Tom laughs. It fits in with a lot of things that I know. Well the red light district here in Victoria was run by the Chinese. And they could offer women just about any nationality at one point. Uh-hu, uh-huh. Yes. And that of course has its sociological reset and they had no access to (?). Yeah. Mumbles something. Well the disparities in women and men in those days were also extremely high here. Mhm. Now, at the beginning, um, you said you had four persons when you started the New Canadian . Two full time, and I presume that was you and uh- Yoshimitsu. Yosh- When we started there was Shinobu and myself. Yes. And then- And then after he left- His brother? Yes. Okay. And two part-time at the time. Would that have been Yoshimitsu part-time at that time or? Well, he was... when Shinobu was there Yoshimitsu’s kinda like the casual visitor, not really working. Um- Was Irene there at the beginning? Irene was contributing a column at the time. But it was not (?) working. She would write the column and bring it in. Okay. Because you did say two full-time and two part-time so I was just sort of wondering who the part-time was- Ouji, he was the business manager. He was trying to raise donations and sell the ads. Oh yeah. Oh yes, yes that’s right. That was very important, selling the ads. Yoshimitsu, when we finally got organized in a sense, I did most of the editorial work and supervising and production of the paper. Yoshimitsu did (?) things in writing and the subscription Ann: Mhm. (?). Ed Ouchi did the business end. As in assisting the ads and (?) donations. Mhm. Um, paying the bills, we all got together (?) addressing the paper. All done by hand. Yes, Frank said that was still the case in Kaslo . Yes. And you would physically carry it to the post office. Yes. On Friday nights. Well that was obviously in Kaslo, you know, after a ll (?) primitive mining town. I was sort of surprised that they were doing that in Vancouver (?) major cities, three daily newspapers. English, and of course, three daily Japanese newspapers. But still, we (?) the headlines. (?) some of us were settled enough mumbles . You said something about the literacy of Japanese Candaians that they could support three daily newspapers. Oh yes. Mhm. Quite right. Mumbles. (?) gradually volunteer. And ideologically based. Ideologically based. (?) like Kinzie Tanaka Mumbles Tairiku Nippo (?) most influential, (?) most successful. Wasn’t (Mizuki?) working at the time, before it was closed down? Or was he at Minshu. He was at Minshu. He was the (?) publisher at Minshu. Mhm, mhm. Did you have to, or did the... did you have to compensate the owner of the Tairiku Nippo for the use of this (?) during the war? As far as I can remember, we didn’t pay them anything. (?) crisis, go ahead. I don’t even remember if (?). We weren’t there for that long. Mumbles. Yes. Of course, you know, there was the (?). They were trying to be (?). And they were running an English section once a week or so. And in that sense trying to (?) their paper. I can (?) the Daily was seen as a more right-wing nationalist paper and quite anti-red (?). I suppose the Toronto Star (?). Within the community. Mhm. In the early issues of the New Canadian was it yourself or Higashi who wrote the uh editorials? I think we kinda shared, you know. (If you have?) something to write, you do it. (?) usually had a couple of editorials I noticed on that. Yup. Double column on page 2. Page 2, right. He might’ve written one. I might’ve written one. Did you do anything else other than the New Canadian to support yourself? Between 38 and- No, (?). Full time work. Full time work. Okay. Other than the volunteer work with the JCCL . Of course it mumbles . I was just wondering if you had done (?). Kunio was doing three jobs (?) wage. Whether you augmented with him (?) tutoring or writing or? No. No. Economic research or something with one of your professors or- No. Mumbles groups in the community (?) Japanese. Church groups (?). Okay. That sits in with that thing I wrote in Nikkei Voice and yeah. Mhm. That was sort of how you became the spokesperson. A: You were available. B: You had the time. And- (Many?) time. C: I presume I had some information (?). Would explain how people like Reverend Norman came to see you as the spokesperson. Yeah. I suppose, yes, yes. Oh I certainly didn't aspire to that though. No. And (AW’s?) farming actually thought you were typical of the New Canadian. Uh. Which (?) his prejudice is very interesting. Yes, typical... Yes. I actually have a document here. He describes you as typical. I see. I think it was (?). Yes. On the advisory board. And he was also the one working with Mackenzie to keep the Japanese Canadians out of the armed forces. He (?) the chair of the committee and- Yes. Right. (?) Yes. And in committee he sort of gave the impression as chairman but he didn’t have a position. But there are letters to Mackenzie and (?) Mackenzie’s paper showing he definitely had a position which was that Asians should not serve in the armed forces. Now this was the committee that recommended the voluntary registration, right? Ah, now that... okay he was on two committees. He was on a committee dealing specifically with the issue of Nisei enlistment. Mhm. And he was also on that advisory committee that went off to Ottawa in early January of 1942 to give a BC view on what should be done on the coast. A committee which had existed before and yes, had recommended the registration of all Japanese Canadians. So yeah, he was on two committees. Recall for me now, the recommendation to do the voluntary registration, this was 1940. Or was it? Yes. Or was it ‘41? That was ‘40 when you... when they first called upon without pictures or anything. Just names and... I think. Did they have... you weren’t issued cards then, you were issued the cards later. Um, actually I have the date when you were issued the cards. ‘Cause I have your number you’ve written down. Missing audio. 03:24:02 I almost get the impression that your time in the Japanese community sort of taught you the hard political lessons you were able to apply when you got to Saskatchewan and Ottawa . But you learned about political reality through that period of time. How authority can operate and various, should I say methods of imposing authority on people. You get such diverse people it’s a Taylor blustering away at you and Mead playing the sort of the good cop/bad cop- Yeah. I guess I don’t know I was conscious of it but mumbles different kinds of personalities. Mumbles political or hierarchical. So I’m sure that was useful (?) training (?) Saskatchewan. Although in Saskatchewan it was a very democratic system (?). If anything (?) Tommy McLeod , roles of ministers versus bureaucrats, and policy advisors against operating departments. And policy advisors against political advisors. Yes, yes. I had one instance where we were in the annual planning budgeting session and uh which we held every November. I was at that session as usual. Call upon various deputy ministers to come in to express their department's aspiration for the year ahead. Mumbles this particular deputy minister made his case, spoke at some length. He began (?) on the political aspects of (?). (?) coming off short of (?), Just give us the program, leave the politics to us. Small laugh. (?) that taught me something. But again, I remember Mr. Cadbury (?) all the decisions (?) ministers mumbles . (?) recommendations (?) all that technological kind. Absolutely essential to recognize the (?) responsibility. Mumbles from Tommy McLeod . Well I suppose I learnt more from him about technology and public administration. I (?) a better mentor, teacher, and also the importance of writing. That was also rather interesting. One of my first uh, shall I say, accomplishments in terms of gaining recognition from ministers was I had been asked to write a small piece for an early budget speech. Short pause. I can’t quite recall what it was on. I think it must’ve been on the matter of system relationships with the federal government. Many of (?) these few paragraphs were incorporated into the speech and the Provincial Treasurer Mr. (Hindes?) thought it was excellent, and asked who had done it. From then on I began to write more and more of the budget speeches. This was one way of course to (clears throat) one of the most crucial ways to learn about the political mumbles this particular minister asked me to write some of his political radio speeches. I (?) get across his complicated message on the radio in very simple, concise terms. I think I found a couple of those. Did you? Laughs. At least a couple that you did for Tommy Douglas where he had to have a script rather than just being able to speak (?). No, these were radio... purely political, political radio speeches. They may be in (Fine’s?) papers then. They may indeed. They may indeed. But uh short pause was that, that was also a useful learning experience. My husband- I was pretty interested to find out when I went to Ottawa (?). Although he got to be deputy. There was this, you know, not particularly well trained economist coming out of Montreal ’s east-side. Joined the department after (?) war service. He had in fact already been delayed first then moved to the Finance Department. But one of his first assignments was to do some writing, a speech for the minister. And the fact that he was able to write a (?) speech kind of gave the way for his (?). I suppose that suggests, you know, the marriage of political insight and understanding with the more professional analysis (?). Mhm. Well it’s also, today at least I’ve known two has been used as an avenue whereby the professionals can educate minister too. Yes. In that they prepare a speech for him which introduces a concept that he likes. Mhm. And if he agrees to (get?) the speech well then of course that careers the way for them for developing that concept. Yes. That’s true. So it’s really synergistic to some extent. You are, you’re serving his purposes but he’s serving yours too. Mhm, mhm surely. Short pause. And you’re nearly alway dealing with policy issues. Of course. And PR (Public Relations). Yeah. And policy can be helped along if it appears to have a minister's support. And it can become abandoned if it becomes uh- (?) or unsound? Yes, or uh politically disastrous. Right, yes. And you know that’s going to cause it to be abandoned. Mhm. Okay. Tell me you highlight particular pieces (?). Oh that’s just so I can find my questions. Ah. I see. Small laugh. All the highlights are, is this the basis (?) government will protect JCs. Tom: Ah. And uh in this particular article you’re interpreting (Saint-Laurent?)’s statement as the government promised the Nisei will be allowed to and live. Again, you know that (Saint-Laurent?) is an important minister when you’re riding in November, a year later, I mean November of ‘41. Mhm. That editorial I used at the beginning of Politics (of Racism). November of ‘41, getting close to war huh? Well I mean that’s uh I had to start that book somewhere and I figured okay let’s just start on the eve of war and see- Yes. See what things are like. In November of ‘41 you were quite optimistic about the federal government protecting the Japanese Canadians against the hooligans. Mm. Well, in many ways too I would suppose, that was reinforced by the fact the hooliganism against Germans and Italians in 1940 had been ignored by the federal government. And I was wondering, like that is (?) remind me (?). I see. To remind you that (Saint-Laurent?) made this statement and had an influence too. As if you could remember. Um, (?) Adachi and Ito are quite thorough on this issue. Particularly Ito and they don't contradict each other at all, so... Mhm. I showed you my old letter of rejection of (?). Ah, no. No, actually you haven’t. Oh. I don’t think... yeah, whispers: I think I should have Shoyama paper to that (?). I guess that’s one little piece of paper I do have up at the office. Um, Ito says you were rejected as (?). I... that’s right. Ito says you were rejected and I have highlighted in yellow why in here somewhere. Oh. Whether it was, you know, your eyesight or anything like that. No, no. There was no mention of that. ‘Cause that was a (?) for the air force to avoid having people, you know, to maintain... Well the first few years of the war, the air force actually hada colour (bar?). There are two answers. One, my inquiry is acknowledged and explicitly says (?). Mhm. That must’ve been about when they changed the policy. And the second letter, (?) reply. But I don’t have a copy of my own letters but (?) reply to a subsequent letter (?) policy is not too (?) uh interesting enough. There is a little lack of (?). Oh in this case you could read (?). But I regret (?) that. Oh and they crossed-out the regret to (?). Oh. Laughs. That’s interesting. It is. I wonder if this went into his records too. Laughs. Yeah. I’ll show you the (?). Yeah but in those days of course they didn’t have photocopies. No, no. (?) to rewrite it. Actually, a lot of these questions here, you have answered for me over the years. Like Russ (McAnnis?)’s- Yes. You suspect that is yourself- Laughs (?) right. On a serious employment problem. Tom: Ah. It’s an economic type of analysis that was why I thought Russ (McAnnis?) was yourself. True. Some of these I’ll have to send you the actual copy. I meant to run them off and bring them with me the actual editorials in case you had any questions. Oh yeah this was interesting. Uh, December of ‘41 you’ve got, I think that participants in a Wilson’s group that called themselves the Six Columnists. At least your article calls them six columnists. I didn’t know if that were their names, ie fighting the fifth column or whether that was your name for them. It’s just a trivial little thing. Please ignore this misspelling of the word agitated. Missing audio. 03:36:53 I think as long as things are sort of running along, you know, there won’t be that much need. For you to have much contact with Mead or anybody else. That’s right. So only when things went bad that you found out about- Mhm. And when things went off (?) track. (?) as far as they were complaints about conditions, particularly Hastings Park . And those days people like Eiji Yatabe mumbles . Okay. And of course you know, there was a (?) behind all kinds of families. But uh there wasn’t much that anybody particularly could do (?). Except (?) all the attention to one appropriate person and- Yeah. And get it handled. At that time (?) to do anything anyways. Mumbles. And you know there were a certain degree of reference but uh I can’t recall... yeah. The (?) of brutality. We all consider (passing?) difference. Yes. But not quite mumbles . No. Uh in fact, Mary Kitagawa reports one incident which is much of an overreaction as anything. Mhm, mhm. Um, the uh I do recall some Hastings Park folks telling me that they all threw their food at the cooks once when it was particularly bad but interestingly enough they were not throwing any at the authorities. They were claiming that the Japanese supplier was making money on it. Mhm, mhm. Which was an interesting way of turning in upon yourself. Yes, yes. Although it (?) wasn’t true. No. Mumbles. No, I’m quite sure it wasn't true. (?) frustration and anger. I’m quite sure it wasn’t true because uh the supplier wasn’t Japanese. Hm. He may have been making money on it. Laughs. But it is indicative of how people react under stress. Yeah. So in other words uh not hearing from Mead was a good sign for you. Mhm. Of course both of you would have been tremendously busy. And you respect the barriers as well. Mhm. And I can’t imagine that you socialized at all with any of these fellows. Not at all. It would have been perhaps more (?) the administrative staff (?) commodities. Hm, I’ll have to check that. Ann writes something. Yeah, I think, didn’t (?) BCSC was dissolved when it was turned over to the Department of Labour of BC? Yeah. Whereas the Department of Labour- Yeah it may have. Although he may have been working with (?). Yeah- END OF TAPE 5, SIDE A