Tom Shoyama, interviewed by Ann Sunahara, 01 January 1977 Interviewer Ann Sunahara Interviewee Tom Shoyama Transcriber Sakura Taji Audio Checker Sakura Taji XML Encoder Sakura Taji

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 1977 Cassette Tapes oral_history_shoy8_1977-xx-xx.mp3 1:21:30 LOI Navigation Taxonomy Taxonomy for site navigation CollectionsOral Histories LOI Document Type Taxonomy Taxonomy of document types Primary SourceA primary source document.Oral HistoryResponsibility TaxonomyIntervieweeA person, family or organization responsible for creating or contributing to a resource by responding to an interviewer, usually a reporter, pollster, or some other information gathering agent.InterviewerA person, family, or organization responsible for creating or contributing to a resource by acting as an interviewer, reporter, pollster, or some other information gathering agent.Markup EditorA person or organization performing the coding of SGML, HTML, or XML markup of metadata, text, etc.ProofreaderA person who corrects printed matter.TranscriberA person, family, or organization contributing to a resource by changing it from one system of notation to another. English - Canadian Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Tom Shoyama discusses the leaders coming from communities such as Vancouver , Fairview , Steveston , Ucluelet , Skeena , Kitsilano , etc. Differences of make up of those communities, compared to the ghetto of Powell Street . Reaction of Vancouver community to the boats being confiscated in 1942, Social aspects of leaders possibly from outside Powell Street ghetto, and comparing that to other cultural groups such as the Jews, the Black Americans, the First Nations. Discussion on what might have happened if there was no forced dispersal and comparison to a community like Los Angeles . He then talks about the governemnt during the Tommy Douglas and medicare era. (This oral history is from the NNMCC 's Sunahara Collection. Accession No. 2018-16-1-70-2-1 - 2)

document created Grew up in London . Well actually, I grew up in Toronto . And my husband grew up in London . Did you go to Western (University)? For my make-up year. I did my first degree in Toronto and then worked 5 years and did a make-up year. Then went to Edmonton because David started studying there. Oh I see. What is he studying there? He’s doing a Doctorate in Sociology. In Sociology. Is that what your Master’s degree is in? No, my Master’s degree is in History. History. It’s not a very good idea to be in the same field as your husband. Ann gives a small laugh. I suppose not, eh? History and sociology would be (?). Yes. People often accuse me of writing sociologically rather than historically. But I put it down to a fact that my first degree is in science. And sociology is far more of a social-science than anything else. So it’s really the science coming out. Not the sociology. Small laugh. Was it a natural science? Yup. Chemistry. Chemistry. Yup. Short pause. What I printed what I wanted to discuss with you was keeping myself for not doing more before was the issue of the Japanese liaison committee. I understand that yourself and Kunio Shimuzu were members of it. Short pause. Have you got that thing on now? Yes. Do you want me to turn it off or? Anything you don’t want recorded just say and I'll turn the machine off. No, no that’s alright. Um short pause that is not the right title! Ha. I think (?) were associated, if I remember. Short pause Or if it was, that it must’ve been the group that broke up fairly early. You know, under internal stress. Hm. Yes, I understood from the Cameron Commission documents and from the (?) which I saw a copy of with your name on it in the papers yesterday. This was the committee which also contained Morii and Nishiguchi and I forget the other gentlemen's name. Yes. (?) fellow. Nishio? Nishio. It could well have been now that you mention it. And do you recall a date? Well, according to the Cameron Commission, uh the original three members were called in by Commissioner Mead . And asked to form a committee. Which at this point, went to the Nippon Club. And did so, selecting the dentist whose name (?). (Ishihara?)? Yes. For the Nisei representative. He later withdrew. And then according to that inquiry, a meeting was held with about a hundred and fifty Japanese of which a committee of twenty five was selected. And among the twenty five were yourself, Kunio Shimuzu for the Nisei. I had the impression that the five of you became the most important members of that committee. I think that that is quite possible but it seems to me that, I think it really did not last very long. Ah. Indeed that was one of the principal stressors within the community. Short pause. From the Securities Commission point of view, Commissioner Mead in particular, there had been a lot of associations with Mr. Morii . And I suppose it was natural for him to (?) that association to continue (?) new kind of activity in the community (?). But there was very considerable resentment against that Ann: Mhm not only by Nisei groups but just as much by other Issei groups. (Ann: Mhm.) But in particular I suppose the opposition at the Issei level crystallized around the group of Issei who were naturalized Canadians. Which was the (?) I don’t believe (?). I think the Cameron Committee said he had been way far back in the (?). I see. Well, in any event he short pause at the Issei level, it was the group that associated with Mr. Morii and short pause and it had quite extensive connections. But with the other group which centered around I think Bob, very prominent Issei leaders who were naturalized. The former president of short pause the Nihonjin-kai, the Japanese Association or the Japanese Canadian Association, which Kunio Shimizu was the secretary. Ann: Mhm. And very politically bilingual. Is Kunio an Issei or Nisei? He’s Nisei. But he went to school in Japan . Ah. Kibei. Yes. Except that he came back at a young enough age, as a teenager, so he became very westernized. Mhm. Much more so than um (?). I met him at the Japanese Cultural Centre when I was in Toronto . He struck me as very westernized. Yeah he is. Oh he was there too. Yeah. I’ve been meaning to get in touch with him but I haven’t had time. So I think I will probably set some time up in January. Yeah. Anyway, going back, Mr. Isogo I think that was his name. And then of course the leading Japanese language daily newspaper was Iwasaki of the Continental Times . He was the (?). So he kinda established a group. In addition to that, various church groups sort of splintered off. Particularly the Anglicans and the United Church . Short pause. And I think there was a widespread feeling among that part of the community that they thought it was inappropriate that Mr. Morii should (?) to speak for the Japanese community. Short pause. Particularly because the association the RCMP had largely been because of his particular role in the community in which the police were associated! Mhm. Long pause. So that liaison committee, as far as I can recall, existed on paper and perhaps only survived a few weeks. n fact. But continued to meet with the BCSC all through until Morii was evacuated in May. Right. Well, (?) late February to May. I’ve been having a little trouble getting information on the naturalized Japanese. There are lists of names in the British Columbia Securities Commission papers, of course they mean nothing to me. Well, if you’re going to Toronto , you try to get in touch with Mr. Iwasaki . He’s publishing in the Continental Times in Toronto now. Okay. I think he’s in good health. And he would be, I’m sure, delighted to talk to you. Short pause. But between them and the Nisei group, arguably there was an active relationship. We could understand each other and discuss (?) together. But between us and Mr. Morii there was (?). Short pause. Similarly, between us and the church groups. The uh church groups sort of coalesced around the congregation that had been associated with these churches. Yeah I was aware from uh Tadashi Mitsui ’s thesis, for his Masters in Sociology? That the church groups, especially Reverend Shimizu, were very much close to Morii. Yeah. Um, and yet I understand from Dr. Miyazaki ’s biography, or autobiography I should say. Have you read it? Yes. That um- Is there anything he hasn’t covered? At this point, not too much laughs . This is the problem. I’m at the stage where I have to ask (?) what he’s written about. Yes. I understand from Miyazaki ’s autobiography though that Morii was fairly high up in the Canadian Japanese Association. Short pause. He was a treasurer. I was (?). Yes. There was no question on a regular basis. But it came to be, if I may say so, a role of something like that of a ‘godfather’. Ah. Mmm. That’s what Carr Suzuki (?) to me too. Yes. And uh I think I mentioned to you that my personal relationship weren’t always that good. Formal. Ann: Mhm . We never tended to be able to speak much in English and I could not get along in Japanese. So whenever we meet we’d be very formal. We would bow and just say a few words. But in the same way that he was, I think, helpful and supporting the Canadian Japanese Association, the Nihonjin-kai. He also made available the hall where the Nisei groups met. The Japanese Canadian Citizens’ League . Regularly at no charge or I think we paid $5 rentals. It was difficult to find places. So he was a little bit (?). Short pause. As fast as I know, the only group that had no direct, or shall I say, benevolent connection were the church groups. Mumbles. Okay. So, judging from this uh this degree of factualizations indicated here, um, would you say the unity among the Japanese community is a myth? Oh yes, I would say so. (Short pause) But no more mythical I suppose than the unity of any other community. Um- Well you know the charges in the war were they were centrally controlled. They all acted the same and all that sort of thing. Ah, that was nonsense really. Uh, and the first little strain of whatever existing harmony, (?) if you don’t bother us, we don’t bother you. Mumbles. Our situation came along and our group objected (?) in the eyes of the officials (?) whole community. That was the impossible situation. I see. Cameron Commission suggests (?) conclusion that the charges that came out against Morii in late May um short pause resulted directly from the order to send the Nisei to road camps and that there were um short pause sort of a... Well they suggested it was sort of a vengeful act by the Nisei. On, they had no complaints towards Morii before then and suddenly they started complaining instead of complaining to the government. What would be your evaluation of that statement? Ann gives a small laugh. Nonsense. Okay. It wasn’t any vengeful act at all. What was the date when these charges were made public? Do you recall? April... was it April? April 24th or something. (Short pause.) There was a newspaper article which appeared in the Vancouver News Harroling. News Harroling. Which was being investigated and I can’t remember if it were April 24th or May 24th. I should’ve written it down. Yes, yes, um... It was the day after the order came to send the Nisei. Well... you know, if it had been a conspiracy or a vengeful act in the sense of a conspiracy it would’ve taken a good deal more time to organize laughs . That was my sentiment. Yes, yes. I’ve heard of the Cameron Commission described as a white-wash of Morii . I don’t know. The main charge was that there was um a Black Dragon Society, ’kay?. Ann: Mhm If I remember. Long pause. I did not see any sign of a Black Dragon Society . I certainly saw a considerable sympathy for Japan all during the Sino-Japanese War. And I think that was a very natural sort of feeling that uh short pause there was a good deal of validity to uh the Japanese version of the (?). Mhm. A hundred million people and a chain of tiny islands practically, obviously resource poor and how are they to survive? All of this of course coming up during the years of the Depression. Ann: Mhm When trade barriers were (?) by every country. So that unlike the post-war period it wasn’t for Japan to operate as a workshop using labour skills and organization based on other people’s resources. That was not possible. So I think Japanese militarism was seen as an inevitable, an unavoidable reaction. The um whispers: what time did I put it I always think about the British campaigns in India whenever somebody talks about the Japanese campaigns in China . And I’ve read accounts of English people who kind of discuss the Indian roles um in a sympathetic manner. Um am I mistaking it in assuming it’s a similar sort of interest, it’s not an interest because they are Japanese nationals so much as it’s something a country they are associated with having born there but not living there for 30 years. Um, is doing, which as far as they can tell, is going to be beneficial. True. Very much so. Would you say there was... I’m trying to establish how politically intelligent the average member of the community would be. Would they have really concerned themselves much with Japan ’s conquest with China ? No, no. I suppose it really was (?) first of all the occupation of Manchuria Ann: Mhm and of course there was um a certain amount of empathy. Perhaps you can feel the pride in the small nation tackling the huge giant of a nation. And really (?) militarily. Um, but I think that the long pause there was not any really high level of comprehension or interest in (?) politics or world politics. My impression has been that the Japanese community, like most immigrant communities, was largely concerned with making ends meet. Mhm. Very much so. Laughs. That was the... The first concern was to work on (?) especially so many of them... In the 30’s. In the 30’s. And they had families, children. And of course, there was great interest in education. So that was (?) resources were hard to come by. Well, not just in the 30’s but from the time they arrived, they first began to settle down in family units. Long pause. And um, the question seems to be that various forms of discrimination (?). Short pause By the same (?) lost opportunities for (?) different cultures. It was a surprise to me, before going to Vancouver , how much cultural activity there actually was. Considering how (?) the community was. You were not raised in Vancouver then? No. The country(?). Uh, the interior or? I’m from Kamloops . Oh Kamloops . Dry area of the country. Yes, yes. In our community, I guess besides ourselves, our family, there may have only been short pause two other families and then a couple of single men of Japanese origin. Short pause. So I kind of looked upon the Japanese community very much through the eyes of an outsider. Mhm. Yes. This has been my impression talking to most leaders in the Japanese community during the wartime period. The Nisei leaders. That they almost seem (?) perhaps with the exception of Kunio Shimizu to be people outside of the Vancouver community, even outside the Steavston community or any of the larger communities. Well, depends on which leaders. If you refer to leaders.... Well, I understand that both of the Tanaka boys came from a town outside. The outskirts, the suburbs of Vancouver. Which Mr. Tanaka tells me he didn’t have much context with the major community. John Kumagai came from a smaller community in New Westminster which was largely French than anything else. Right. Yourself, of course, is from the Interior. Security’s parallel actually because in the states the Japanese American leaders had similar backgrounds. Was that right? (?) from Utah . And parts of Los Angeles , San Francisco , and northern California Tom: Yes did not have concentrations of Japanese. Well, if you make reference to the leaders in a certain sense... The elected leaders. The people who were organizing campaigns is what I meant. Right, right. Those who were active and interfaced with the outside, external community. Mhm. Short pause. I presume there will be a different leadership structure within the community during the war? Very much so! Like Mr. Morii . Mhm. Or Mr. Misawakawa. Mhm. And the Nisei Mass Evacuation Group . Yeah. They were (?) speaking. Really indigenous to the community. Mhm. And in that sense I suppose one can say they were more representative of the community. They were Powell Street types? Powell Street, yes, indeed. Such... well, Powell Street. Short pause. I don’t want to use that term Powell Street types as any of the terms... No, no, no. What I meant, I’m sorry I apologize if I gave that impression. Well I’m sure you didn’t mean it that way. Was someone raised in the...well, Alexander , Powell , Hasting, Pender area? Slightly talking over Ann Right. (?) Japanese and the (?) language. Right. And the Japanese language school. Yes. (?) allowed to attend the (?)-kai. Yeah. And was probably able to take part in the Japanese theatricals. Yeah. So long pause there was a fifty-fifty chance of affiliated with the Buddhist Church. Ann: Mhm In some cases, they have spent some time as children in Japan . All of that. And have been exposed to the language and the culture of Powell Street. In short, someone like my mother-in-law laughs . I don’t know your mother-in-law laughs so- They were living on Alexandra (Street) . On Alexandra. Although she was raised in West Van . Okay. Soft voice: Yes, yes. Well, it was inevitable. It was a ghetto. Oh yeah it was. That was one of the things I wanted to find out. How much leadership came from the ghetto. To use that term not meaning (?) or anything Tom: Yeah . Meaning... Uh long pause , I would say as far as the interface of the external community, any (?) movement away from BC to somewhere elsewhere, not that much. Uh, that was the leadership that wound up in the coast towns and relocation centers. And to some extent, the leadership that led to the (?) in the internment camps. And the leadership that also led to the repatriation cases. So, mumbles: uh, how do I put this I hate using things being typical or not typical. Short pause. Perhaps you would you say- Talking over Ann In a general sense though- This leadership be more representative of the community than persons like yourself? Long pause. Not representative in the sense of speaking for a larger number? Mhm. Or having the characteristics and ideas and opinions of a larger number. Well long pause , I guess I would have to say out of all, if you wanted to get a quantitative way (?), yes. END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A There were, of course, quite a number of different communities though. Um, Vancouver , the Powell Street area and (?) of Cariboo there was a community. And Steveston and perhaps a couple of the fishing villages on the west coast, Ucluelet . And Skeena ? Skeena . Skeena to a lesser degree. Those were smaller communities, not quite so segregated. (?) interacting with a larger community in Victoria . (?) Fraser Valley . (?) small fishing villages on the coast. Uh, (?) there was less segregation. That was a rather different kind of (?) And um (?) the farmer who mumbles . (?) 7000 I think. Yeah. Steavston was (?). But it’s interesting (?) the community of Steveston from some of the other fishing communities like Sunbury or upriver New Westminster . (?) different (?) because they were much smaller (?) impact of a larger community. Mumbles A lot of these farming communities, the neighbors were selected not to be Japanese. When I was talking to George Tanaka , I was trying to get a picture of um the relationship between the fishing community of Steveston. I was thinking of (?) but the other fishing communities as well. And the Powell Street community in order to entertain how the Powell Street community would have reacted to the fishermen being thrown off their jobs and things like that. Long pause. Well that’s an interesting question. (Long pause.) As you know, to get a license, you had to be naturalized. Short pause. So they had (?). But it was really very much was a ghetto. So culturally, I would say, as they used to say, very Japanesey. Mm. And the same things applied to isolated communities on the west coast and Vancouver Island by Ucluelet . Now um long pause , the Vancouver community was much more varied with Powell Street sort of like its center. And there were small centers in Kitsilano and Fairview generally centered around the language school or the Buddhist Church. Um, in the nature of things there was quite an active interaction of the people who lived there and the larger community around them. Had to go to work (?) and the suburbs, sawmills, shop keepers, et cetera, et cetera. And um long pause (?) sociology, I missed the part of your first question (?) the comments. laughs Oh I was trying to find a relationship between, or if any relationships existed between the major communities and those communities because I am intrigued by the apparent lack of reaction in Downtown Vancouver to fishing boats being impounded and things like this. Oh short pause . Well, I think for our (?) long pause I would say there was a shikata ga nai aspect to it. Hm. Can’t do anything about it. No. Actually mumbles . The day after Pearl Harbour there was a blackout in Vancouver , you see. Mhm. For the whole community. All through, not only in Vancouver but also in Victoria (?). So everybody felt the war was close. Particularly after the reports of the Japanese submarines being sighted. Even if they were two- Even if they were two- both laughing. Even if they were two Canadian submarines being moved. Yeah. But after all, you know, the war (?) after the attack on Pearl Harbour . That’s true. I noticed that in our previous interview you had noted the fishermens didn’t complain because they had already been conditioned by their long struggle to stay in business, to obey the authorities. And compounding the scene is an extension of the fishing industry, or the discrimination within the fishing industry. Oh I (?) the individuals mumbles felt very deeply about it. Long pause. You work hard, it creates risks, you put your savings into the boat, you’re very proud of the boat and fought to the very last bit of it (?). Hard work and very risky work. And all of this face of continuing, continuous acts of discrimination. I (?) feel a big part of and I’m sure that it is a very decent loss to give up and see the way they were manhandled. Mhm. Just as anybody else who- Anything they had possessed. Anything they possessed. Or of great cost to themselves. Yes. Tanaka had also commented that as far as he was concerned they were very individualistic people because fishing is such a lone occupation. They were loners. They fought their own battle. And didn’t ask for help. Well, as far as I think that’s true. Long pause. Yes, nevertheless there was a strong community healing. Oh yup, yup. And if anyone was in trouble there was no doubt about the empathy. Mumble , you know. That’s frustrating. And after all, there’s nothing like a sense of repression and injustice inflicted upon you and your fellows (?) together. That’s true. That’s true. Because people were under stress (?). Especially with the repatriation issue. Yes. Mumbles: That of course. And the net sense of all these fishermens (?) continuous political harassment short pause (?) stick together for survival. Short pause I think that’s true for the community as a whole. Particularly in the older people. Mm. Had to turn inward. That meant you made your association within the ghetto, so to speak. Many ghettos around the world act the same way, to survive. Long pause Well that has always been my impression of the Japanese community. Um, I’ve never quite fallen for the generalizations. If only because I can look at my husband and see how he differs so much laughs and his opinion differs so much from others in his generation whom I presume the whole community to be that way. Well sure but you’re looking at a quite a different situation. You might say it’s interesting because there, how much community spirit there is. And these outside pressures that had essentially dissipated. That is a bit of (?) psychology (?). As a matter of fact, there was a thesis done on that recently in Toronto . Oh is that right. A Japanese girl from Japan . I think the whole of this is pretty important though. Um, certainly during the period of, during the 30’s and the (?) of the war. It’s pretty much like Jewish people. If you are um giving in among yourselves by discrimination over (?) uh you look for sources of strength and support short pause , your own cultural background or your family or your own community. That’s natural. And I think a lot of Japanese people were very fortunate to be able to find that kind of support. That seems to be the most (?) the sociological difference between the Japanese community and some other (?) of Native Indians. It was difficult to find the same source of strength. Perhaps because of the paternal figure they look to instead of the government. For a long time, and it’s important now that it seems to me we also look back (?) to revive Indigenous culture. Mhm. My husband has always had this thesis that one of the reasons that Black Amerians had problems they couldn’t surmount is because they didn’t have a culture to look back on. Slavery had removed that culture. Exactly, exactly. And it’s only since the publicity which Black culture which in fact exists but wasn’t recognized as such. Um it’s only publicity received since the 60’s that has really made the unity of Black’s possible on the basis of being Black rather than...other races. Well yes. I don’t pretend to be a sociologist at all. Neither do I. Both laughs I’ve read the ethnic stuff. I’ve read Shibutani. I’ve read a few of these others but I don’t pretend either. Short pause. Except that uh you’re in a position to observe. Hm. I’ve actually been fortunate to be in the position I’m in. Very fortunate. And I was in a very similar position. I came to that community as an outsider essentially. But naturally I've become a big empathy for it. Yes, so that’s the objectivity about it. (?) I should say I’m aware my children will be and legitimately be a member of that community. Although I would alway be an outsider. And that uh... actually I got into this because I started studying Japanese history to understand what my husband’s background was. You know more about it more than he does? Yes. (Small laugh.) And I certainly know more now about his own history than he does. Yeah, I’m sure you do. But in fact I think after these two weeks in Ottawa , I think I know more than anyone in Canada knows about it. Small laugh. I wouldn’t at all be surprised. You’ve been looking into things that nobody else has ducked into. But some of it has only recently been opened up year by year. Right, right. Although some like Mackenzie’s have been open for some time. Well it’s... have you read this novel Shogun? Shogun, yes. I’d rather enjoyed that. So did I. Very good way to introduce a person slowly to and from the point of view of an outsider to Japanese culture. Mhm. But easier than reading The Tale of Genji, you know. Oh. Tom laughs. Plunging into The Tale of Genji without any sort of preparation does sort of leave you swimming in an unknown sea Ann laughs as well . Sure about that. I have to admit it’s a.... They put the correct cover on it though. They could sell it in about any store both laugh . Giving me an idea. I’m intrigued about your comments of the... Conversation stops A telephone, I’ll turn this off. Ann adjusts the microphone/recorder. I should turn this back on now. Okay, yup. It should be on now. Whispers: What was I going to say. Oh yeah, I was interested in your comments about the representativity of the leaders in the interior settlements and things like that. ‘Cause in my research yesterday, I came across files of excerpts from letters which had been taken away I suppose by the censors is the way to call them. Uh, not so much for the purpose of censorship but for the purposes of rating of determining the success or failure of the policy. For the Department of Labour . Tom: Oh right. And I was debating whether or not to, you know sort of, go through and select from them perhaps make tape of them. ‘Cause that’s faster than writing them. Mhm. And it has so much photocopying when you only have 25 pages a day. Um, but I was wondering how representative they would be. So I presume that uh short pause it might be interesting to just get in and find out what it was. Like what sentiment expressions were. Yes, yes indeed. Long pause. And they were very big divisions. (Short pause.) I suppose that was probably true for any ethnic group. I recall that the Jewish community here in Ottawa has six different synagogues. Each of which represents each of its own theology, traditions of the Jewish (?). Short pause. I think that the Japanese community had gradations. Not only in the young and second generation but the mixtures. There were um some distinctions based on income. Broadly speaking I guess short pause well they were quite really mumbles . And uh that very settle, or no not settle, gradation of degree of westernization or Canadianization. And uh there were people like myself who had grown up, really, in a non-Japanese environment. That’s why I say there are good, many other folks like that (?) like that. And then there was this other sort of hard part of the ghetto. Well both ghettos. East end and Downtown Vancouver. Tom mumbles something. At that rate, short pause at least half of the Japanese community did not live in the ghetto. Well I think that’s true. Yes. Um... Hm. It would be very interesting to... I wish they had done proper studies like they did in the states. Find out what happened to various people in various communities. To see whether the... Well I’ve noticed that the claims loss was in Toronto which I had been looking at. I’ve taken down those interesting names but I was interested in locations and I have noticed that they either seem to be from the Powell Street area and fairly well off. Mhm. Or they’re from the small areas. Whonnock , Ocean Falls , or Ucluet .. I think I’m saying that wrong laughs ah Victoria . Which might suggest that those who moved east by '46 were those who were from the 10, 000 not in the ghetto. Or 10, 000 that were not in the ghetto plus those who were well off in the ghetto. Yes short pause although um there was sort of a sense of natural migration of people coming from the Fraser Valley who were farmers. Mhm. The farmer community in Southern Manitoba . Um, certainly, there were quite a number of people who made their way east just on their own and they tended to again (?) people who were basically not out of the ghetto. Mumbles. There were people from Vancouver . Eventually (?) in South Vancouver, you see. Entirely non-Japanese environment. And eventually (?) scattered across Victoria (mumbles) . And off the coast near the Prince Rupert area it was a similar situation. People who are on the hill really adapted to the, being outside of the ghetto. And they didn’t find that difficult to mumbles . Long pause. That’s very interesting. The degree of dispersal before the war. Especially an answer to arguments which say the dispersal contributed to the economic advancements by the Japanese and things like this which in the thesis I don’t support. It was simply post-war expansion plus discrimination. But uh- (?) thought myself, if it were not for the evacuation, what would have happened to the economic terms. Yes. And there are two ways of looking at that which nobody has done yet. One is to look at the American community which they stayed quite closely in Los Angeles which expanded, opportunity expanded terrifically. Although it has tended not to expand as fast as the North-East United States . But there you can argue is it because of dispersal or because of the people who dispersed? Yes, yes. Productivity, yeah. On the other hand, you can put the Chinese community too. Which gets a bit little obscured after 1962 when so many new Chinese arrived. Right. Up to that point but nobody has done that yet. You’re in sociology now, you know. Well it’s history too! It’s history is it? Both laughs. I mean the whole... one of the things I want to do eventually is a re-entry study. From the camps into Canadian society. Yes, yes. Because that is like immigration within the country. Yes it is. But nobody has looked at it. Nobody has looked at the Chinese community in the last 30 years. You’re right. That’s true. Of course I don’t speak Chinese which would probably leave me out. Laughs. You speak Japanese? No. Laughs. The Niseis speak English. Well... I know food words and arigato and a few other things like that. Good for you, good for you. Do you like Japanese food? Oh I love it. David said he wouldn’t marry me until I learnt to make sushi so... Laughs out loud. It’s interesting where that came from. I have to admit, I prefer Japanese food to... Well my mother was British so English food had never turned me on laughs . But uh- Oh come on. Roast beef? There’s nothing better. Except that my mother was the kind of British that used to cook the vegetables until they were grey. Oh, well.... Things like that. Yes, yes. I definitely prefer the way the Japanese do their vegetables. Yes, so do I, so do I both laugh . Right. Well... You’ve done an awful lot of research, I must say. When do you hope to complete this thesis? Sighs I would like to have a draft done by Christmas. Come back in January to check out places for the- Did you study at the University of? (University of) Calgary. But your husband is from Edmonton ? We live in Edmonton and I commute. Do you really? All last winter I ran 15, 000 miles with my car running back and forth between the two cities. Small laugh I have to do it less now so it won’t be quite- You’re getting high standards for a Master's thesis. I’ve been told that but I’m, I suppose in a way, rather like yourself. Small laugh. I don’t think anything should be just done adequately. I think it should be, I’m doing it for myself not the degree anyway. Sure I understand. I’m sure that the fact that you worked for five years mumbles . Yes. Every time I want to slack off, I think of the five years of chemical reagents and I think, keep going girl. Laughs Well that’s a curious transformation. Not really. I... history and chemistry has always been my two interests and I picked up chemistry because it was more employable. When I uh first went to UBC in Kamloops , I wanted to become a chemical engineer. Largely because I found chemistry interesting and (?) short pause . But when I got to Vancouver short pause (?) the employment opportunity for Orientals, chemical engineering was very, very limited. And after some time perhaps it would be easier to learn the world of business or be on your own (?) Commerce. So you took a degree in Commerce? Yes in Economics because in order to qualify for (?) Chemical Engineering I had to take the year to take one subject. And one of the thing (?) sociology and psychology and economics. From there, (?) shifted into Commerce mumbles . (?) And then you worked with The New Canadian ? And you worked with ? And then I presume you came to Ottawa . Yes. (?) council and then came to this department laughs . Pretty epic that (?) someone had told you back in UBC that you’d be Deputy Minister of Finance someday you’d never- Nobody else would’ve either both laugh . No one else would have. Long pause. Life does strange things like that. Indeed it does. And uh, I can’t take a look back at all those experiences, you know, and long pause given a designated file other than philosophically, would I say. Because it was really all uh... Is that the problem with the subject though? Because things had gone so well since the 50’s. People tend to overlook the fact that it was a major aggregation of civil rights and Canadian history. Oh indeed! Of course. The most common response to my thesis is, what... END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B When I was in Ottawa I had a connection with Saskatchewan while there were quite a few other names. But the ones I’ve given you are the ones I worked closely with in Regina . Well Allan Blakely is, of course, in Toronto right now. When we first encountered each other going back to 1950 or 1951. Mhm. Yes, you were saying last night that you were going up to (?) to cover George Tanaka ’s job. That’s right, that’s right. Um long pause , and um this professor, Meyer Brownstone, who’s at the University Toronto I guess. He used to be the president of Oxfound. Mhm. When I first came to Saskatchewan , Meyer and his wife arrived at about the same time. And he was an economist or an agricultural economist with the TABB. So we certainly worked very closely together, for a long period. And left Saskatchewan at around the same time. I presume ‘64 was when Tommy’s government must’ve gotten boot. Mumbles. Sorry, yeah. That’s right. (?) defeat. That’s right. Yes. Mumbles. Short pause The first of the boat people. Both laugh. Yeah. No, I know that’s your clean house or that’s your senior I suppose we should refer to as the clean house. Mhm, right, right. Although, he called me in and asked if I’d like to take on the job as the Deputy Treasurer! Because Allan Johnson had left from that and left. The job was open and he said that to me at the beginning of my work mumbles . Well I believe at the time the Saskatchewan Mafia, so to speak, broke up, you had the reputation of being one of the most efficient civil services in Canada . Mhm. I think that’s true. Yeah, right across the country. Short pause And of course mumbles Godfather. He was the one who sought you folks out and recruited you? Either that or I played a large part in the structures, the organizations, the training. I came across Mr. Cadbury. George Cadbury had come from England as Chief Economic Advisor. Oh, and he of course was in Toronto so... Mumbles. Long pause. Oh and in Toron-, in Ottawa Don Black who was Mr. Cadbury’s deputy. There was George Cadbury , Don Black , George Tanaka and a Finance Officer. Don became the Deputy Minister of Industrial Development. Long pause. And he came to Ottawa , eventually. Long pause Never really landed anything in Ottawa that was really significant. He was an (?) at the time. Anyways, he was a really close mumbles . (?) and curled. Curled? Of course, on the prairies what else. Yes, yes. Well there’s one more name in Ottawa, Dick Lane . Who was an Indigenous in Saskatchewan . His father had been a long outspoken United Church minister. Long pause Outspoken in the sense of Tommy Douglas was outspoken? No. Mhm. Social gospel tradition. Short pause. So mumbles but short pause (?) back to Regina (?). Short pause. There’s um I think Carl Edy, E-D-Y, was a social (?). I think he’s still living in the lively (?) in Regina. Um short pause we had a close colleague by the name of Mitchell but his wife June was still there. She was the daughter of the first CCF woman MLA elected. So she kept close touch with what’s going on in the government. Short pause. There’s a mumbles Margaret long pause Margaret Henderson. Marti Henderson short pause who was around for much of that period. And Dorothy Lee. L-E-I-G-A? L-E-E. Mumbles something between long pauses. And there’s Art Wakabayashi who’s there once more as Deputy Treasurer. Short pause. He was a bit younger but he came into the Saskatchewan government. And uh, he was born in Saskatoon you know. His parents had a (silk?) store in Saskatoon before the war. Mhm. Long pause. And you say he’s again in Saskatchewan he was there when you were there and he’s back or...? Ah, yes. Yeah he had an interesting career. He worked for Al Johnson in the treasury. Mhm. And then um short pause he became the Deputy Treasurer under Thatcher. Ross Thatcher . Then he came to Ottawa and became Assistant Deputy Minister in the solicitor general’s department. Short pause. And then went back to Regina under a dry (?) Department of Regional Expansion as the Economic Coordinator for Saskatchewan. And he moved from that to become the Saskatchewan government’s trade negotiations. Free trade negotiation. And last year, he was appointed again as Deputy Treasurer. Hm. He came whole circle. Yeah,sometimes I suspect that the Deputy Treasurers jobs are a little bigger now that it was since you started. Ah in terms of the volume, yeah. Yeah, but same problems. Mhm. So when he was (?), of course he would be federal. Yes. Right. But the Saskatchewan advisor(?) his back while he was at the government of Saskatchewan. Right. Long pause. And he’s a Nisei. Married to a hakujin (White) girl. Mhm. He hardly knew any Japanese, grew up in Saskatoon too. Oh just like you, he would’ve been isolated. Well Tom Tamaki is still in Reigna . George ’s younger brother, who became a lawyer and legal advisor in mineral resources. Ah, this is why I had the impression that George Tamaki was still in Regina because I had seen references to a Tamaki who’s a lawyer in Regina and I just presumed that it was George. Younger brother. Okay, that's why I was a bit surprised yesterday when you said that George went to Toronto, the big downtown firm. But he’s still practicing in Regina. Laughs. Long pause. There’s the (?) MLA. There’s a chap by the name of Whelan. Mhm. Jane Whelan’s brother. Ed Whelan. His name was Ed Whelan. Mhm. Who was a MLA for Regina. And who is a partial resident here in Victoria now. Called me up on the phone and said he’s trying to write a book about Tommy Douglas . Only it would be kind of more of a personal book of the same kind Tommy’s brother did. Actually, I think Tom wrote that with his son. Yes. That’s right. He, mumbles an act of political discussions (?) about the archives. Long pause. John Archer. I’m not sure if he’s still in Regina or not but he was (?) librarian (?). And subsequently he became the president of the University of China. Short pause. So he used to (?) Long pause and Tom mumbles something. Mumbles. I mean, uh yes. (With the telephone?) system. Yes. His son was a very good friend of ours. Oh really? Yes, yes. Jake’s his name. He’s an (?). What’s his name? Jeff. Jeff. His sister was a Deputy Minister in Manitoba . Oh, really. Minister of Culture. She’s in the federal government now. Mhm. (?) his personal father (?). Bert! Bert Roe. Yes. That name makes sense. That’s right. His son- (?) wasn't it? Yes. His son is a very, immensely talented person. Who is as happy as one can be as a technician at Stats Canada. We all used to joke that all you had to do with Jeff was lock him up with a computer and throw away the keys and he’d be happy. Laughs Mhm, mhm. But he’s very interesting. A very widely read fellow. David loves talking about him. Short pause. So it continues to the next generation. Yes indeed. Well, of course. There was a second generation from (?). And we used to get together in a curling rink in Ottawa and his young sons would come along. (?) case of Bert Roe’s daughter I don’t really remember them at all but I mentioned Don Black, he had a son who was mumbles others like that. Mumbles something before giving a long pause. Missing audio? 01:15:24 ...during the Blankley period there was a reflowering of the CCF and NDP . Mhm. And (?) civil servants (?) that. But I didn’t know many of them that came to Ottawa (?). Short pause. Do you know a Dr. Clarkson in Edmonton ? I’ve seen the name but I don’t know him. Clarkson, I forget his first name, he was Deputy Minister of Health, you know, in the Medicare period. Okay. Mhm. Short pause. Graham Clarkson . That rings a bell. Went down to New Brunsiwick right after ‘64, and worked there and then moved to Edmonton. Graham Clarkson, a very interesting Scott. Mumbles. Mumbles. Mhm. Missing audio? 01:16:39 (?) car corporation. But I think all of the people I ever met there. Maybe the Saskatchewan Power Corporation. Mhm. I was on the Board for the corporation for many years. And I was also on the Board for some of the corporations that operated out of Prince Alberts . (?) Gee I wonder if short pause if I inquire about Mike Macough(?). He was, that’s right, how could I have forgotten about Mike Macough. He was one of the originals at the government finance office. And he was an accountant. So he played a major role in building the accounting department corporations. Long pause. And then he went up to Prince Albert as a General Manager for Forest Fires. Mumbles. Has the (?) government privatized these? Whispers: Some. Followed by a long pause. So... I’m tiring you up? No, no. I wasn’t up as early as usual this morning. Um, I was in Saskatchewan pause - Missing audio? 01:18:43 The chap went to Winnipeg . Missing audio? 01:18:54 Mumbles before giving a long pause. Missing audio? 01:19:17 Anyway, he ran and organized and ran under the (?) government what became known as a Crown Investment Corporation. Which was a mumbles for corporations. Immigration trails there (?). He had been executive assistant to Mr. Lloyd(?) I guess mumbles . Long pause. I have his files in the office. Short pause. Well that’s the (?) as far as Saskatchewan is concerned! Yes. Yes and uh I think the most advantageous that the deputy minister during the Medicare was (?). Yes. So I can check him out real quickly. Mhm, mhm. Assuming he’s still there and hasn’t retired to Victoria . Mhm. But he’s younger, so he should’ve retired. Well the name rings bells. Short pause. A lot of bells. Ah and it’s time to make some supper. Yes.