Gord Baird, interviewed by Carolyn Nakagawa, 12 April 2018

Gord Baird, interviewed by Carolyn Nakagawa, 12 April 2018

Abstract
Gord Baird was born in Vancouver and raised in Nanaimo, BC. In this interview, he discusses the commercial fishing industry in Nanaimo, and the Japanese-Canadian fishermen who he, his father, and his uncles fished with. Gord speaks about how Japanese Canadians tied their boats at the wharf and owned all the housing along the beach before their internment, and that there was an amicable relationship between the fisherman. He describes how his family friend, Takashi Uyeyama grabbed his fathers leg saying “Don’t let them take me” when two service patrollers came for him. He talks about his uncle buying a Japanese-Canadian fishing boat after they were forcibly removed, and recalls how the Japanese school was ransacked after their forcible removal as well as a coffee shop owned by a Japanese Canadian was taken over after they left. Gord describes many interactions among the fisherman: family friends, saving children in the ocean, shared meals, and one man in particular who used to cook for the men in Ucluelet. Gord believes an injustice was done. He ends the interview by talking about how the fishing industry has changed and that the fisheries intervene too much.
This oral history is from an interview conducted by the Oral History cluster of the Landscapes of Injustice project.
00:00:00.000
Carolyn Nakagawa (CN)
This is Carolyn Nakagawa, it's April 12, 2018, and I'm here with Gord Baird in Parksville, BC. And we're here to record Gord's oral history for the Landscapes of Injustice project. So Gord, can I just start off by asking you to tell me about your memories of Japanese Canadians when you were growing up in Nanaimo?
Gord Baird (GB)
Well I'd be probably six years old at that time. I remember about the Japanese fisherman, and there was about twenty Japanese boats, and say fifteen to twenty fishermen, that had their boats tied of up there. And of course my family—fathers and uncles—were also commercial fisherman, and they tied up at the same moor. And we had one particular Japanese—Takashi Uyeyama, okay, was a very good friend of the family's. We use to have, not, my parents used to have him over for supper or lunch or whatever. And we never really, to my knowledge or memory, got to know all the Japanese fisherman. But I can remember their boats on the wharf—tied up at the wharf—and all the housing along the beach was owned by Japanese. And there was a big, humongous Japanese school off of Stewart Avenue, and it was about in the middle of the wharf where the Japanese kept their boats. Now, that's gone. Somebody tore it down. But as far as that, I never really seen any animosity between the white fisherman and the Japanese fisherman. Until Pauses. the internment come. And I can remember Takashi, there was—Takashi, Gump, and Jimmy were brothers. I can remember Takashi hanging onto my dad's leg, saying, “Don't let them take me,” and “Don't let them take me.” And that's the navy used to patrol, with a rifle and bayonet up, I can remember that. Patrol Stewart Avenue. And other than that, I felt it was very wrong of our illustrious government, which I still think they're wrong, in many different ways. But they didn't treat the Japanese right, in my opinion. Pauses. So that's about all I can say about that.
CN
Lightly laughs. Well thank you. I actually have a few questions about what you've just shared. So you said the Japanese families lived along the beach?
GB
Yep.
CN
And where did you live at that time?
GB
Just at the end of the wharf. But also, we weren't on the beach, we were up high, off of Stewart Avenue.
CN
Just a little bit removed?
GB
Yeah.
CN
Yeah. And you said that Takashi would visit your house often?
GB
Oh yeah. He would always bring us chocolate bars or candy, or you know, spoil me. Both laughs.
CN
So you liked it when he came over?
GB
Oh yeah, yep. In later years, when they'd come back, we fished together, and went up north together. You know, with each our own boats, mind you. But yeah, that was great memories. But of course, that all faded away as time went on.
CN
And did you or your family every visit the Uyeyama's house?
GB
My parents did, but I never did. At least I can't remember that. The only one I remember is Kaiai.
CN
Can you tell me about Kaiai?
GB
Well Kaiai lived on a little island across from Nanaimo Biological Station. And he would tie his boat up there, there was a ladder going up the rock bluff that takes you up to his house. When we went there, dad would stop and we'd go up and visit. And of course, the Japanese were great for getting food out—something to eat.
00:05:11.000
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GB
So they got me food out. Sat down. And I asked for a fork or a spoon. And Mrs. Kaiai said, “Uh-uh. Learn chopsticks.” Laughs. And I went without a fork or a spoon, and that's how I learned to use chopsticks. But that was—funny memories now, but it wasn't at the time. Laughs.
CN
Was it difficult to learn chopsticks?
GB
Ah, not really. Once you get onto it, it was a little, you know, the sticks would jump and of course your food would go off of there. But then they would teach me. I could take a bowl, and they didn't sit down here and bring it up. I brought the bowl up, and done it that way.
CN
Brought it close to your face.
GB
Close to the face, yeah.
CN
So did you visit the Kaiai family often?
GB
Yeah, it would be probably once a week.
CN
Wow.
GB
Once or twice a week. When you know, we're coming in from fishing, or going out and they wanted something, or needed something, or. . . But that's how it was.
CN
So it was like a friendly neighbour relationship.
GB
Yep.
CN
And about how old would you be at that time?
GB
I would be, probably eight or nine at that time. It's hard to remember exactly how old I was because, you know, that was a long time ago.
CN
Would you often go on the boat with your dad?
GB
Oh, yes.
CN
So you'd help him fish?
GB
Yep.
CN
So then there'd be Takashi and other fishermen there as well?
GB
Ah, not on the same boat.
CN
Oh, okay.
GB
But within the same area. Yeah.
CN
And what was the relationship like with the fishermen who were fishing in the same area? How would they interact when they were out on the boats together?
GB
On the boat together?
CN
Sorry, you said there are different boats.
GB
Yep, they had their own boats.
CN
Right. So would there be any interaction when you were fishing at the same time? Or. . . ?
GB
Nope. When you got back into the wharf, then they would discuss, you know, “I had a good bite of cod.” Most of them were cod fishermen, okay, and they flooded the whole of the boats. So they would have fresh, fresh saltwater for herring and live cod.
CN
Oh, live cod in the boat?
GB
Yep.
CN
And is that what your dad did, too?
GB
Yeah.
CN
They all did that?
GB
My dad, my uncle—uncles. Oh yeah. The white fishermen. Most of them done that. They had, they would cod fish, and troll. And when the season, when salmon season would come in, they would quit the cod fish and put the trolling gear on. And that's how they worked it.
CN
Was there any difference that you were aware of in the methods that Japanese-Canadian fishermen and white fisherman used? Or non-Japanese-Canadian fishermen?
GB
No, they pretty well shared all their secrets. You know there was no “no don't tell.” You know, that's how it was.
CN
Were there different tricks that they'd share with each other?
GB
I don't remember any of that. All I can remember is they were at the wharf one day, all tied up together. And there was a Japanese group, I guess it was from Steveston? And Takashi. And we heard that the Japanese—they love sitting on their deck and eating, okay. And that they were talking in Japanese. I can remember my dad saying to Takashi, “What are they talking about?” Takashi said, “Damned if I know, I don't understand their language.” But apparently, there's four different types of Japanese languages, which we didn't know at the time.
CN
Yeah, I'd say at least four. So the Steveston folk he didn't understand?
GB
Yeah.
CN
I see, I see. Yeah. And did you interact with any Japanese-Canadian children at the time, or was your contact with Japanese Canadians mainly through your father and other fishermen?
GB
No, later on, like Takashi's youngest brother, I grew up with him. We were basically the same age. Jimmy, I mean. We chummed, and fished together as we got older. Yeah. But that was about it. There was, I know Gump had a family. Takashi had a son, I think. And Jimmy never married, so. . .
CN
Did you go to school with any Japanese Canadians?
00:10:26.000
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GB
Not to my knowledge. I didn't go very far in school. I quit in grade five.
CN
I see.
GB
Because dad took sick and I had to go fish for them. Of course, they give me the option of going to school or going fishing. Of course, I'm a kid, what am I going to say, you know? Do you want the ice cream, or do you want the chocolate? Laughs. Make a choice. So I went fishing. So I don't have an education. As most people had. I am self-educated.
CN
I see. How old were you when the war with Japan started?
GB
Well I was born in '36. So it would be probably six years? Six-years-old? I think in there. Because I can remember the navy patrolling up and down the channel with their landing barge. And I don't know where their main station was. It was somewhere on Newcastle Island, they had a station there. But I don't know where their main spot was, but I know they were there. Because like I say, they used to patrol Stewart Avenue where the Japanese were. With rifle, bayonet up, on the gun.
CN
Do you remember the first time you saw the navy patrolling, and how you felt at that time?
GB
I don't. All I can remember is the barges, and I would be young then. All I know of the navy is the barges, with navy personnel on them. And the one patrolling the street. That really brought to my attention, you know, what the heck is going on here.
CN
Did they just patrol the areas where the Japanese lived? Or were they patrolling just more generally around the water?
GB
No, I think they patrol basically just around the water. But the shore patrol patrolled where the Japanese houses were, you know. And you can see the boats right from their house. It's like the house is here, and the boats are right there. So, it was easy, you didn't have to go out and look around or nothing, you could see them all.
CN
You could see the houses and the boats at the same time?
GB
Yep.
CN
Right. So, when you saw those patrols, how did you feel? Did you want to run away from them? Were they just kind of part of the background?
GB
No, they're just part of everyday life.
CN
But how long were they patrolling for?
GB
Oh, god. I don't think it was that long. And I guess the reason would be they sent the Japanese to internment camp, so, of course then there was no more patrolling. But I would say, just roughly guessing from what I can remember, probably at least a year of patrolling.
CN
But it was just part of everyday life?
GB
To me it was, yeah. I never, ha, I never really got involved in, or interested in it. You know, all I could say was, “Oh, there's a sailor!” You know. “A navy boat.”
CN
Can you tell me more about the time when Japanese Canadians were being forced to leave Nanaimo? Do you remember when you were first aware that this was going to happen?
GB
I don't really remember other than Takashi hanging onto dad's leg. And the patrol.
CN
Was that right when he left?
GB
That's when they took him, yeah. And the patrol would come, and take them. Away they went.
CN
And where did this happen? Was he at your home?
GB
Right in Nanaimo. Right in, yeah, dad's home.
CN
Oh wow, so he had come over to say—
GB
Yeah, well they were visiting. Takashi was visiting, as usual. And it was time to go, so the shore patrol just come, two guys, and grabbed him. Away they go.
00:15:14.000
00:15:14.000
CN
Wow.
GB
And that was a wow, because that, well, woke me up. You know as young as I was, you know, “What is happening?” That was my thought. There goes my friends. And dad wasn't too pleased about it, either. You know, that was his—they'd been friends for a long time. And of course, there's nothing you could do. Our illustrious government made sure—I guess they had a right to do that, but I don't know. I don't think they did. That way, anyway. No, it was devastating because they lost their boats, their livelihood, their housing. And they don't know what they got for it. Food and a camp? That was about all, that I know of. I think that was a big injustice. Even though it was a war, a part of war, I don't think. At that time, I didn't know any part of war. I was too young to realize that. But, well, god. Why not just send them back to Japan? Why put them in camps? I still don't know. And I bet you the government don't even know. Pause. You can tell I'm up on government. Laughs. Yeah, injustice, injustice. But other than that, I couldn't tell you too much more about it.
CN
What did your father—do you remember any conversations with your father or the rest of your family about what was happening at the time?
GB
No, I was too young too. . . You know, I'd hear them talk but I didn't know what they were talking about.
CN
You don't remember what they were saying at the time? Speaking at same time.
GB
Internment, interment. Speaking at same time. What's interment, you know? “A camp.” Oh, they're going to camp! Laughs. But that was my age, you know, I didn't realize what it was. Until they come back. You know, Takashi came back with a wife, Marge (?). Then I was much older. And now I realize what it was. The injustice that was done. Other than that, my memory doesn't go back that far.
CN
Do you remember any changes in daily life or things that you noticed in the community after the Japanese Canadians left?
GB
Mmm, no. The only thing I remember is there was more room to tie up your boat. Laughs. Because I don't know what they done with the boats—they sold 'em. But there wasn't that many left. I know one of my uncles bought a Japanese boat. Pauses. The rest of them? I don't know. I can't remember, too young I guess. Or, you know, not knowing what was going on. Really not interested. Because there was no war, it was over.
CN
Oh, by the time they had bought the boats?
GB
Yep. They confiscated the boats. And the only time I remember is when they were returned from the internment camp. When Takashi and Marge and Gump and his wife and Jimmy all come back. And they all got boats again. I don't know how, I guess the company's sprung for the boats because companies liked to have fishermen fish for them. But, ah, that's all I can remember about that.
CN
Do you remember what happened to the houses that they used to live in?
GB
Well, a lot of the white folk fishermen moved into them. Now whether they bought them or whether they were squatters rights, who knows. I don't know at the time. But I know most of the fishermen there were on, lived in those houses after the Japanese were interned.
CN
So it was a good spot for anyone who was fishing to live?
GB
Yeah. Most of them. Now everyone I can think of was a fisherman who had gotten one of those houses. But unfortunately, I think most of them has passed—gone on. Probably to better things, who knows.
CN
Lightly laughs. Do you remember if your family heard from the Uyeyama's when they were in camp?
GB
I don't know.
00:20:31.000
00:20:31.000
CN
Do you remember anything, if there were any things in the houses, what happened to them?
GB
I have no idea. I know the Japanese school was ransacked.
CN
Right.
GB
You know, you'd get doors were left open or broke off. And you can go in there and there were lots of knick knacks. You know, kids stuff, you know younger stuff. And then last year, when I took Ian down to show it where it was, it was gone.
CN
Oh, the building was gone?
GB
Oh yeah, it'd been demolished.
CN
How long after the Japanese had left was the building ransacked? Or was it sort of a—
GB
I don't know. I would say, I'd be probably 12.
CN
Okay.
GB
At the time.
CN
When things were kind of blown open.
GB
Yeah. We were kids, eh?
CN
Right.
GB
We were. And there was a little coffee shop, just about across the street from it. And that was run or owned by a Japanese. I can't for the life of me remember his name.
CN
Before the war it was a coffee shop?
GB
No. Yeah. I guess the war was on.
CN
And then they left. Speaking at the same time.
GB
Because they interned them. Speaking at the same time.
CN
And that was what was left behind, was a coffee shop across from the school?
GB
Yep, basically. But you know all that disappeared. Of course, I was too young to realize. Nothing I could do about it, anyway. But I have memories.
CN
So both the coffee shop and the school were kind of looted?
GB
No, the coffee shop was taken over by a white person. I can't think of his name. But the school was ransacked. You know. But the coffee shop was fine. But it's gone too now. Laughs. But yeah, geez, that was a big school, too. One of the biggest I'd seen.
CN
Do you know if the building was used for something else after the war?
GB
I don't think so. I don't think so. I think they just tore it down because it was, well I don't know for sure because I moved away. There was, what was it? There was Liltlechecks (?), and again they were used by Japanese. I'm trying to think of the name of what we would call them. But I can't, I can't think of it. Like I say, my memory is fading. Laughs.
CN
Okay, well can I ask you about the period after the war when Japanese Canadians started to come back?
GB
Okay.
CN
Do you remember the Uyeyama's returning?
GB
Yeah.
CN
Like, meeting them again after so many years?
GB
Yeah.
CN
What was that like?
GB
That was good. It was better for dad, my dad. And my uncle. Well actually both uncles. But yeah, they got together again and it was fine. Takashi had a wife, and we met the wife. A good looking lady, too. Other than that, you know, I kind of drifted away on my own. Because I had my own boat at thirteen—my commercial boat. So I didn't stay around home too long. Pauses. But other than that, I mean it was a good feeling. Jimmy coming back. Takashi coming back. Gump coming back. And I think there was a couple other ones, but I don't—I can't think of their names because they weren't, they weren't really part of the family, but they were part of the fleet. I wish I could remember them. The Japanese, the older fellla on the coast there. If you're in, you know you get blown in? He's in there first, he had your dinner ready or your lunch ready. Blown in for a couple days? He had your breakfast ready. I can't remember his name. But he was from Vancouver. Pauses. Steveston, he was from Steveston. But I can't remember the other one. I bought a—my second boat I bought from a Japanese over in Steveston. Can't remember his name either. Laughs. I can remember the face but not the name. But yeah, you know, we had a good time. There was no animosity amongst the Japanese. That I'm aware of.
00:26:16.000
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CN
When they came back, did they tell you about what had happened in the years they had been away?
GB
No.
CN
No. It wasn't discussed?
GB
No. They may discuss it with my parents, but no, I never heard nothing.
CN
You mentioned that your father knew Takashi for a really long time. Your father and your uncle. Can you tell me a bit about that relationship as you know it?
GB
Well I don't really know too much about that. It's just that, as long as I can remember, Takashi used to come and visit all the time. Or they'd talk down the wharf, on the boats or on the docks, you know. I wasn't really involved with that, that was more of dad. But they were very happy that the Uyeyama's got back.
CN
Did they get to know each other through fishing, or did they go to school together?
GB
I don't, I have no idea. I'm sure it would be before my time Carolyn laughs. that they, you know, knew each other. But, ah, I don't know. I was born in Vancouver in almost, in a show. You know The Bounty? You heard the show?
CN
No.
GB
Well that was a good show. Brittany on The Bounty, and I think it was, they said half hour into the show. And they had to take mum to the hospital because she was going to pop.
CN
Oh my gosh.
GB
So that's why I was born in Vancouver, not Nanaimo.
CN
I see. Because they were on holiday.
GB
Yep, they just went over because my aunty lived in Vancouver. So they just went over to have a visit with my aunty, and decided to go to the show. William Benicks was the guy, and Charles Lottin.
CN
The actors?
GB
Yep, the actors. William Benicks, he died a long time ago, but he was in it. Who else was in it? Now, memory, memory. I can't think. But it was a good show. I'd seen it after.
CN
I was going to say, I'm impressed that you remember. Laughs.
GB
Oh yeah.
CN
You mentioned that the Japanese Canadians were in a fishing fleet. Can you tell me about the fleet? How many people were in it? And how did that work?
GB
Oh, like I said, there would be between fifteen and twenty Japanese boats tied up at the wharf.
CN
Right.
GB
So each, each one had a, you know, owned a boat. Or were buying the boats—whatever their situation was. They just, I don't know, they just disappeared. The boat. I'd never seen them take any away, or. . . I don't know how they'd done it. Did they action them right there? I don't know.
CN
So during the war now?
GB
Yeah.
CN
Okay. And then, the people who bought those boats, do you remember what the attitude was towards buying a Japanese Canadian boat at the time?
GB
All I know is my Uncle Joe bought one. And he was fine, you know. Fine with it.
CN
Did he feel like he had gotten a good price? He wasn't uneasy about the—
GB
Oh, they were going to be sold anyways, so. You know. His idea was, “Why not?” You know. If it's going to be sold anyway, it's not like I'm going to cheat that guy. So he bought it. He was looking for a boat and that's how he started fishing. Oh, there was many of then. Many, many. I can't think of all their names, but I can see their faces. At least three? Three had houses. Right across from the boats. But it always surprised me. Or wondered by me. What happened to the boats? How did they, you know did they come from Vancouver and take the boats back to Vancouver? Or did they have an auction right there on the wharf? I don't remember all that.
00:31:12.000
00:31:12.000
CN
So you didn't see that happen, and you didn't see necessarily the same boats that used to be Japanese Canadian boats fishing in and around Nanaimo?
GB
No. No, I'm sure they all went to Steveston or one of those places. But the Audrey-A was the only boat I can remember that was a Japanese boat. And that was my uncle, Joe Entrebus, and his daughter was Audrey. So they called it Audrey-A.
CN
So they renamed it?
GB
Renamed it,
CN
I see.
GB
I don't know what the name of it was before that. Yeah.
CN
So the fleet, the fishing fleet, and Japanese Canadians, and non-Japanese Canadians, fishermen would fish together in that fleet before the war?
GB
Oh yeah.
CN
And then after the war, was it a similar situation?
GB
Well and they were seen, most of the Japanese, come back. Because they didn't have a boat. And, assuming, I don't know but I'm assuming, that dad, and Uncle Ethan, Uncle Jack, and a few of the others spoke up for the Uyeyama's to keep their boats. Not the same boat they had, but they'd get boats. I'm assuming, knowing that the fish companies, this is how they would get a boat. Like if you want a boat, you go to the company and say, “I want to go fishing on a boat.” But you have to fish for that company. And you had to put so much down, I guess, but that's how it worked.
CN
So, was the fishing set up, do you think it was pretty similar after the war for those who did come back?
GB
Oh, I think so. Yeah. In those days, it was, definitely. Now, it's a wreck. Laughs. Government, again. But yeah, the same boats come in, and, you know, it made it different. It used to be called Blueback Season, on the gulf. And you could troll for bluebacks. And there was quite a few of them. Now there's no more bluebacks. They call it coho. Bluebacks were small. About two-to-three pounds. And coho are quite big.
CN
So bluebacks would be about ten a foot?
GB
Little more than a foot.
CN
And coho are maybe a foot and a half?
GB
Oh yeah, and larger.
CN
And larger.
GB
Yeah. But that's because, in my opinion, they let the same boats in and get rid of the fleet. The bluebacks have disappeared, there's no such thing anymore as a blueback. Fisheries will tell you there is, but they don't know it. They read it in a book. Laughs. Yeah, I'm prejudice on them too. Both laugh.
CN
So, you fished after the war, alongside Japanese Canadians?
GB
Mhmm.
CN
Can you tell me a bit about what your interactions with them would be like on a day-to-day basis?
GB
Oh, we'd just B.S. on the wharf. Carolyn laughs. You know, you might go down to pump your boat out, or check it, or fix something, or tie up some gear, or whatever. And you'd have conversations, back and forth. You know, they might stop and see what you’re doing. See if you've got any secrets. But, you know, at that point in time, it would be more like my dad and my uncles would be doing that. Because, when they got back, I was fishing. But I was, what would you call it? A rogue. You know, I didn't hang out with my parents or my family anymore. I'm me, I got my own boat, you know. But that's just being young and foolish. Something like the government. Laughs.
00:35:56.000
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CN
Can you tell me about, you said there was one gentleman who would prepare meals for everyone?
GB
Oh yeah, that was on the West Coast, in Ucluelet. And for the life of me, I can't think of his name.
CN
So he was another fisherman who would have been fishing with you, is that right?
GB
Well, he fished. He had his own boat. And we'd fish out of Ucluelet. And like I say, if you got blown in early or whatever the case may be, if he got in before ya, he would have your meal ready. You know, good fella. Older—he was older. I guess he didn't last too much longer. But he was sure good. I wish I could remember his name.
CN
Was this after the war, too?
GB
Yeah.
CN
And would you all eat together or was it just kind of as you came in?
GB
No, they pretty well all ate together. They would be, maybe half a dozen? Four to half a dozen? Would sit on the deck and eat. Or if it was raining, you would sit in the wheelhouse and eat.
CN
This time, was it mostly non-Japanese Canadians in the group?
GB
Well, it was a mixture. It was always a mixture. That's what I say, you know they did get along good.
CN
But do you all talk together while you ate?
GB
Oh yeah, definitely. Couldn't understand a lot of it, but you know, some of the Japanese couldn't speak English. Or very little English. And I don't know if they can understand a lot of English. Ah, I thought I had his name there, but it disappeared. But he would translate anything that you wanted to be translated. That's why I'm pretty sure he was from Steveston, from that batch of fishermen.
CN
Why do you say that?
GB
Because he could translate. We had Takashi sitting there that couldn't understand what they were talking about, yet he could. And that's when Takashi said there are four different Japanese languages that he knew. And he didn't know any of that. But this old fella, he wasn't scared to tell ya if that guy called you an idiot. Carolyn laughs. And this and that. He'd tell ya, you know. He was good. Oh, can't think of his name. Damn!
CN
Do you remember what kind of food you would eat?
GB
Oh, it would mostly be Japanese when he cooked. I remember one time, he was cooking what they call rock cod and rice.
CN
What they called what?
GB
Rock cod and rice.
CN
Okay.
GB
Okay, and we later on got a different name for it. As geeboo.
CN
Oh.
GB
You've heard of geeboo?
CN
Yeah.
GB
Okay.
CN
My grandma makes it.
GB
Yeah?
CN
Used to make it.
GB
That's what it was. And it was great, and just inside the wheelhouse, if you wanted more it was on the stove. Little gas stove there. I went to get more, and here's a head of a red snapper and it's two eyeballs sticking out, looking at me.
CN
In the pot?
GB
Yeah, and that finished me. Laughs. I wouldn't have any more of that. But yeah he could cook—excellent cook.
CN
Would you eat with chopsticks out there, in Ucluelet?
GB
No. No, I didn't eat too much with chopsticks. When I went to the cafe's, now they used it. They'd get the chopsticks. Chinese cafe or something. I would eat with those chopsticks.
CN
Can you think of other ways that you came into contact with aspects of Japanese culture through the fishermen that you knew?
00:40:32.000
00:40:32.000
GB
No. I just know they were friends or fellow fishermen. I didn't pay much attention. But they were, they were all good. I didn't know them all, but nobody snubbed me and I didn't snub any of them. And I know the white fishermen—the older fishermen—they didn't have any problem with them. At least, not that I understood or could see. You know, when they weren't with Japanese and they were talking, they didn't say, “Oh, those damn Japanese,” or this and that. You know, it was, “Oh yeah, T.J. there, he had a good day yesterday,” and you know, “He was on the TM bank” or “He was on the south bank.” So that wasn't, you know, hatred anywhere there. It was just conversation. It was just people doing their job.
CN
So, like I was talking to you about, before we started recording, a big part of our research in Landscapes of Injustice is about telling everyone in Canada about what happened. Educating the public. So, with what you know from your own experience with the Japanese Canadian fishermen, is there something that you think that everyone in Canada should know about this history? What should they take away? What should they learn from it?
GB
Well, I think they were badly dealt with. It could have been a different way of doing things. Why would they confiscate all their livelihood and possessions? It still doesn't jive with me—it didn't then. You know, I could see if they were Japanese soldiers, sitting there. Now I can see them taking them away. But they weren't, they were just normal people that I could see. I don't know. Maybe there was a spy in them? Who knows. But I don't know why they were treated like they were, and I think it was a big injustice at that time. Now what are they going to do? Pay these guys? Pay their families? Give an apology? But you got to remember, they were at war. So you gotta work that into it. I'm glad I didn't have to make any of those decisions, because I would have made the wrong one, I assure you. Laughs.
CN
Can you tell me a bit about how being at war factors in to . . . How does it changes the situation for you? Or how does that change the way of thinking about this history?
GB
About the history?
CN
Yeah, because you said you have to take into account that they are at war. So I'm wondering, what does that change about what happened for you? How does that help you understand it?
GB
I didn't really understand it. I was too young, and not really involved with politics or wars or that. I was just young and out and having a good time. But I don't know. I don't know if the government done right or done wrong. I think they done wrong from what I know, from what I seen, from what I lived through. But they're smarter than me, they must be, they're getting lots of money. The government, I mean. But it was an injustice at that time. I think they could have done things different if they were that afraid. It should have been done differently. I mean after the war, during the winter, I used to go roofing. Just for something to do. And my friend and I, my buddy, we would go up to Ucluelet and re-roof their houses, and they were Japanese. These people we roofed for were Japanese. And they would say, again, “Do you want something to eat?” You know, we'd have something to eat. And we have sake here, “I have a dozen bottles of sake I had buried down.” He got his old house back, the one he had, he got it back. And he buried a bunch of sake. And I thought, ew, you know, young and foolish. Sure, why not have a sake? Well, I didn't like sake, I'll tell ya. Laughs. Oh, it was horrible. I'm used to a sweeter. You ever had sake?
00:45:58.000
00:45:58.000
CN
Actually, no. Not much of a drinker.
GB
You should try it. Just try it. I don't mean drink it, but you should taste it. Mind you, we drank it, anyway. Laughs. But yeah, that was so long ago, those people. That were Japanese. Like I say, the Nakagawa, up in Ucluelet. I jumped in the water and saved his son, because they were at the camp. Camp man's kid, and, oh, memories. Names! They escape me. But they were on this log, and of course the drop off is just like that.
CN
Very steep.
GB
And then there's the wharf, and they're out there—
CN
Between the drop off and the wharf?
GB
Yeah, and the wharf. And they fell off. And they couldn't get back on the log, they were trying and the log would just keep rolling, and rolling, and rolling. And finally, the Nakagawa (?) kid went under. And I seen this, there was a bunch of us watching. You know, they're having a good time and we're all sitting on deck there. And I took a run and dove in, because I knew it was just a matter of seconds. Well, when I hit the water, Laughs. I had fishermen pants on. And they're a bannockburn. A bannockburn is a thick wool fisherman pant. And when I hit the water I just got stumped, because I couldn't—you know, it's not like jeans, where you can. . .
CN
Slide in?
GB
. . . still go. But I had a heck of a time swimming up to get him. But I got him, and I got the camp man's boy. I got him hanging on. And the log, where it wouldn't roll, where he could hang onto it. And I got the other kid—he was all right. And the dad, god, I can't think of his name. He came down with a couple bottles of whiskey Laughs. and, chocolates? Or chocolate bars? Anyway, in appreciation you know for saving his son. But that's what I mean. They come back, they didn't have any bad thoughts of, you know, the damn white people. And of course, we never. . . Frank Oi! Frank Oi was one of 'em.
GB
Pardon? From Ucluelet, yep.
CN
Who lived there after the war?
GB
That was after the war, yep.
CN
And the Nakagawa's?
GB
Nakagawa? I knew Beverly, that was the older daughter. And the younger daughter? Oh, what was the younger daughter's name? I don't know. I can't remember. But Beverly used to come down with her dad, and chum around. She was young. Actually, I think she was going to University because she had a UBC . . .
CN
Sweater?
GB
Yeah, pullover type deal? Laughs. As a kid, “What does UBC stand for?” We were thinking all kinds of things. And she comes up, she says, “Use Before Christmas.” Laughs. So she kind of put us back a bit. Both laugh. Good ol' days. But I guess we had to grow up sooner or later. No, I rephrase that. We never have to grow up. We got to grow older, but we never have to grow up. Carolyn laughs.
00:50:30.000
00:50:30.000
CN
I think that's all the questions I have for you today.
GB
Good.
CN
But, I just wanted to give a chance if there was any other stories that you thought of while we were talking that you wanted to share.
GB
I don't, I don't. You got to understand, and I was pretty young when all that happened. You know, I was too young to realize what really was happened. But the one that stuck out in my mind most was the two shore patrol grabbing Takashi, and Takashi crying, “Don't let them take me, Ed. Don't let them take me.” And that stuck. As young as I was, that stuck. And I never seen Jim again till, they were all released I guess, and they come back. But we were all much older then, or quite a bit older. You know, we used to get in the bar when we were underage. Laughs. Course, I think most kids done that. But yeah, I can't—there's nothing specific. Just to me, it was an injustice. You know, I'm a young, young kid and I couldn't understand, well I didn't understand, what was going on. So you do the next best thing: injustice. That's what we thought.
CN
As a way of the closest thing you could get to explaining it?
GB
Yeah, it was. . . To me and to the kids that I knew. There was an injustice done. Of course, when I say that, it was listening to the adults talking, okay? And I got to agree with them. And it was. An injustice. But, that's all I can tell you about that.
CN
Do you think your experience with this history has had a big role in shaping your attitude towards the government, or so on? Gord laughs. Or was it just one many things?
GB
It was one of many things. All governments lie. It doesn't matter who you vote for or who gets in, they forget the platform they run on. They forget. They are, they're liars is what they are.
CN
Is this something that you think of in relation to Japanese Canadians, or just more generally?
GB
Well, I think it's a. . . My biggest peeve is the fisheries. They have no idea what they're talking about. They definitely have no idea. I mean, they haven't been out there. They read a book from college, or university, or that, and it could be a book that I wrote and went in book form, and I said “Well we used to fish the east with teaspoons,” you now. And they would believe it! They read it, they would be at college, and “I read that.” There's nobody been out there that understands what happened, or what does happen. I mean, this herring fishery. They complain that this is gone, and that's gone, and this is getting less, and that's getting less. Don't say for a couple years the feed'll come back. Their eggs will hatch. And you can't tell them that. They just don't know. We were down in Victoria, at the creek down there, at the bottom of the Malahat? You know, there's a big river that runs by there.
CN
I don't know Victoria too well.
00:55:02.000
00:55:02.000
GB
Oh, well if you go down to Victoria, you're going down the Malahat. Okay, now it levels out, near the bottom? And there's a nice big river that runs through there, where all the fish come up and spawn. There was a fishery officer, counting. We were waiting on an opening, a fish opening. We counted over three hundred fish in this one little area. Fishery officer come up, “Oh no, eight fish is all I seen there.” This is a guy that, he's going to go back and report, so you're not going to get a fish opening because there aren't enough fish up the river. You know, this is all we could do not to throw him in the river. Really. He got out of there. Laughs. But he wouldn't look—but that's what I mean about fishery officers. They don't think of the livelihood that that guy just made that stopped many fishermen—Japanese as well, they were all out there too, that fish. You know, that time he put on that could have been a good season for somebody. Or, lots of money. Or a good outfit, a good day, or whatever. And that's what I mean about fisheries. They're stupid, they're brainless, and they're government. Romeo Leblanc (?), he's the head of it now. But I was one of the lucky ones—I got out of it. Because I would have kept fishing. I wouldn't have shut down. Throw me in jail. They let the Indians do it. It's supposed to be food fishing. Now you can go up to some of these places, going up to Port Alberni, look at the back roads? There's all dead salmon thrown out there from Indians, that are food fishing but couldn't get rid of them. So they dump them. So on the other hand, if you want a sockeye salmon now, you don't have a boat, you can go up to Port Alberni and you can buy sockeye salmon from the Indians. Isn't that amazing? Yet, we can't fishermen. But they can set their nets in the river. And that's fisheries. Oh, I could go on for. . . That's why I went and worked for Nanaimo transit. Laughs.
CN
Fair enough. Okay, well any final thoughts before I stop the recording?
GB
Nope.
CN
Okay, well thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me today.
GB
Yeah, okay. Is that it?
CN
Yep.
00:58:09.000

Metadata

Title

Gord Baird, interviewed by Carolyn Nakagawa, 12 April 2018

Abstract

Gord Baird was born in Vancouver and raised in Nanaimo, BC. In this interview, he discusses the commercial fishing industry in Nanaimo, and the Japanese-Canadian fishermen who he, his father, and his uncles fished with. Gord speaks about how Japanese Canadians tied their boats at the wharf and owned all the housing along the beach before their internment, and that there was an amicable relationship between the fisherman. He describes how his family friend, Takashi Uyeyama grabbed his fathers leg saying “Don’t let them take me” when two service patrollers came for him. He talks about his uncle buying a Japanese-Canadian fishing boat after they were forcibly removed, and recalls how the Japanese school was ransacked after their forcible removal as well as a coffee shop owned by a Japanese Canadian was taken over after they left. Gord describes many interactions among the fisherman: family friends, saving children in the ocean, shared meals, and one man in particular who used to cook for the men in Ucluelet. Gord believes an injustice was done. He ends the interview by talking about how the fishing industry has changed and that the fisheries intervene too much.
This oral history is from an interview conducted by the Oral History cluster of the Landscapes of Injustice project.

Credits

Interviewer: Carolyn Nakagawa
Interviewee: Gord Baird
Transcriber: Jennifer Landrey
Audio Checker: Jennifer Landrey
Final Checker: Jennifer Landrey
Encoder: Lindy Marks
Publication Information: See Terms of Use for publication and licensing information.
Setting: Parksville, British Columbia
Keywords: 1940s-1950s

Terminology

Readers of these historical materials will encounter derogatory references to Japanese Canadians and euphemisms used to obscure the intent and impacts of the internment and dispossession. While these are important realities of the history, the Landscapes of Injustice Research Collective urges users to carefully consider their own terminological choices in writing and speaking about this topic today as we confront past injustice. See our statement on terminology, and related sources here.