David Lewis, interviewed by Ann Sunahara, 12 September 1977
Abstract
David Lewis
describes the
Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (CCF) Party
– members of cabinet in 1942, and the great hero
Angus MacInnis
who had logic and courage, was principled. He describes the BC party being divided,
that there was a genuine sense of fear. He names those who spoke up about the demonstrations
and the need for protection of Japanese Canadians.
Three divisive issues of the CCF party:
1) mishandling the Japanese Canadian issue
2) hysteria of fear
3) the local situation with racist policies and politicians.
Insights given into
Harold Winch
and McNeil’s personal stances on issues,
Frank J. McKenzie’s stance, Grace MacInnis. He compares the impressions of
Diefenbaker
to that of
Mackenzie King
. They discuss the oriental franchise issue where, in 1935,
Ian Mackenzie
ran large advertisements in papers saying a vote for CCF, meant a vote for Orientals.
This oral history is from the Nikkei National Museum and Cultural Centre's Kage Collection. Accession No. 2021-7-1-1-3. It describes the experience of exile.
00:00:00.000
David Lewis (DL)
Uh, with the caveat that this is from memory and mostly reliable. Partly because I
had seen some of the material or notes on the material (?). Then I start with the
last point first. It was not any difficult to (?) at the federal, at the national
level on this subject. There was no division in the ranks of the
CCF
and the (?) in the House which was smaller at the time. Consisted basically of seven
people. (?) matter (?)
Coldwell
,
Douglas
,
McInnis
, (?)... Well, I forget the other two (?) take your time. They were all (?).
Ann Sunahara (AS)
Yeah. (?) Mackenzie.
DL
That’s right. They also pointed (?) positions. The great hero, as far as I’m concerned,
was
Angus McInnis
. The British Columbians (?) that myself at the time
mumbles
. Tremendous logic and courage. He was as principled as anyone else in the party could
be including (?). He was less one dimensional (?) principles surrounded mainly at
that time. Not always of course but at that time
mumbles
. In the BC party there was division.
AS
Yeah.
DL
A series of so-called left-wingers. With (?) members such as
Colin Cameron
. Am I right?
AS
Um... I have not been able to-
DL
Now, there is however, a very important difference between the divisions and the
CCF
and the attitude of the Liberals under mainly
Ian Mackenzie
. Mackenzie is a racist (?).
AS
(?)
DL
He was absolutely under the
mumbles
as far as I was concerned. Much of the opposition to the official party policy because
officials they had policies adopted at conventions.
That’s why I’m a little, I must look into it myself (?) because past policies at that
time (?) supporting the Japanese (?) in ‘44 as well. The reason (I sided?) with the
CCF
with the official policy was the genuine fear. Not so much on the Japanese attack
on the west coast as for the disturbances the Japanese were bound to create internally
on the west coast itself.
I remember people, I don’t really remember exactly what they stood but they (?)
Alfred Turner
of a decent fellow (?) and others like that were doing not so much of fear of attack
(?) people who had been (?) outburst of the demonstration of the (?).
AS
Protect across the (?)?
DL
00:05:09.313
Yes, (?) I think they were all, I think I am right in remembering they were all concerned
(?) Japanese when there was (?) doubt of rather than just yanked out as if it was
the case to start with.
00:05:09.313
DL
Shot somewhere with no (fail?) return to, you know, I (?) Socialists are people
(?).
DL
Well I think it would be a difference of... if I can say this to you without attribution
because, may I?
AS
Yeah.
DL
Just from your background.
AS
Sure. I-
DL
Let’s assume I can trust your (?) remember what I’m saying (?). There was a difference
between
Winch
and
MacNeil
. Winch was an emotional, he is still but a very emotional man. In those years, he
changed the (?) when he came to Ottawa. But in those years when he was still young,
he was terribly irrational. A very great mind virtually untrained, technically speaking.
But a very, very good mind and a very quick mind. And very decent and very committed.
But if something struck him, he became irrational about it. And he was
mumbles
he was very much (?) this is one of the big problems I got to (?) I digress, too far
to presume to write down what I
mumbles
. I don’t mind the parts where I can say honestly, (?) nice things. Parts where I
have to be honest
mumbles
.
AS
I was (?) your opinion on the (?).
DL
Yes.
Winch
was very emotional. But if he got hold of a point, the major objective was to prove
himself right.
AS
Mm.
DL
You know there are so many people who do that rather than (?) the point. And he would
get himself into an emotional pitch. All of which is (?) to saying that having a (?)
conclusion when something had to be done,
Winch
was the kind of person who would go over everything, write everything down (there?).
Otherwise justified (?). Those days (?) were speaking very left-wing and revolutionary
with full arms. For the same reason, the moment you hit a corner with a rational conversation
was different. You put him up against an audience which was (?) to his demagoguery
and away it went.
And so Winch was a (?) strident and he’s a (?) on the Japanese (?). And the (?) was,
because in
MacNeil
’s case it was totally a concern of the internal situation in
British Columbia
. MacNeil had been in the First World War. He was a very patriotic Canadian and almost
a pacifist. Almost strongly opposed to the war as the (?) was. I’m not quite sure
where he would have stood having been re-elected in 1940 because he was elected in
‘35 (?).
AS
Mhm. I had the impression he was in BC during this period.
DL
That’s right he was.
AS
Is he still alive?
DL
No, he died just within the year. I’ll give you another name, person from (?) more
than anyone else to the matter. Um, in
Vancouver
though. (?) by mail.
AS
Oh
mumbles
.
DL
00:10:00.438
That’s, that was basically a really theoretical sort of intellectually (?) a six year
position to three. It was a position against mishandling the Japanese. You know, they
had the right to (citizenship?).
00:10:00.438
DL
That was
Angus McInnis
’ (?) that I think basically majority of the thinking (?) almost no support outside.
And the others were divided into two. The hysterical, which included (?) remember.
I can’t give you the exact names but I do remember astonish... remember being absolutely
knocked out by the left-wing Marxists who were on that side. Self proclaimed left-winged
Marxists.
AS
\That doesn’t surprise me. The American (?) evacuation in the states-
DL
Well they of course, after June ‘41. They did it after June, whatever the date was.
AS
Yes.
DL
(?) was attacked.
AS
Mhm.
DL
(Everything?) went through
Canada
too in favour of (?). And that (?) the people that would be characterized by, namely
by
MacNeil
who worked for a good deal of local situations. The person, if my memory serves me
right, who was active, I can’t remember if he was already secretary... Yes he may
have been.
(?) I’ve been thinking about now that I remember,
Herbert Gargrave
was elected (?) election of ‘41 or ‘42 and he was probably (?) of
Ian Mackenzie
. There’s a lawyer called
Frank McKenzie
. M-C capital K I think. Not M-A-C or M-C.
F J McKenzie
I think. Who was either Provincial Secretary at the time or, I know he was the Provincial
Secretary (?) without my notes I can’t give you the exact years.
But even if he wasn’t, he was very, very active on the editorial board or (?) three.
Frank
has a very good memory. He’s a careful thinker and very cautious thinker and a very
careful observer who hasn’t had the same reasons for forgetting some of the details
that I had (?) other parts of the country.
DL
Mumbles
all those people. Anything that he says that contradicts anything I said (?).
AS
Okay.
DL
(?) confidence in his (?).
AS
May I use your name in my writing?
DL
Yes you may. Tell him (?) if you want to (?) better.
AS
I’ve heard of his name before.
DL
He was secretary... I know he was certainly the secretary at the time. (?) find out,
I think my researchers to look it up quickly. (?) a list so you can find him. He really,
Grace MacInnis
(?) and around-
AS
Yes.
DL
(?) always did. (all dead?). However
Winch
is still around if you want to see him. But
Frank McKenzie
, if I were doing the research I would consider him my primary source. And then I
would take his advice from (?) not only the
CCF
(?) other people if you were interested. He’s a good primary source.
DL
Oh yes. Oh yes, he will. He was very aware of the whole thing. Very keen.
AS
In
Ottawa
was there that much awareness (? after
Pearl Harbour
)?
AS
I was aware of that. I was more interest in the party-
DL
The public, (?) and the no, no.
DL
00:15:06.240
Out there. I cannot recall (?) suggested calling (?) which if one had time, one will
quickly decide to see editorial comments in the Citizen.
00:15:06.240
AS
Yes.
DL
Or the
Toronto Star
.
AS
There wasn’t one I remember.
DL
I have no memory of any newspaper reaction. I’ve always assumed (?) as I went through
the other day (?) something else. It might’ve been in the
Globe and Mail
. (?) but I really doubt it. The western papers were hysterical.
Mumbles.
AS
From all their suspicions.
DL
Yes. They were really hysterical. No, the (?) here I remember these, I came to
Ottawa
at the end of ‘35 (?). And very quickly met people
mumbles
a whole bunch of people and met with him quite often. Not sure exactly (?) I never
remember discussing this subject et cetera. When I raised it (?).
AS
Mm.
DL
Because we were having (?) with (?). Maybe that’s why there wasn’t too much
mumbles
.
AS
It certainly is strange if it had any (?). I wonder because I knew the provincial
position was different from the federal position and I was wondering (?) falling out
with the (?).
DL
Oh yes, sure there was (?) depends on (?) the phrase. We were mad at each other on
that subject.
AS
Oh quite. I quite recognize that.
DL
‘Cause there was no falling object (?).
AS
I did recognize that too.
John Diefenbaker
took great (?) to explain to you if it’s possible to be friends with someone that
you don’t agree with (in the parliamentary?).
Small laugh.
DL
He... yes. Nothing, let me warn you about something.
AS
I know (?). I know I read excerpts on so I know what exactly you said (?).
DL
I wrote a few of the (?).
AS
I’ve heard-
DL
I was so... I couldn’t remember and I was so (?) when I (?) on the telephone, I didn’t
say in the review I’m telling you, I didn’t (?) my memory. I (?). And I said
Stanley
would do the research (?) independently on (?). We went through indexes (?)-
AS
Right. When I interviewed
Mr. Knowles
, he wanted to know what (
Diefenbaker
?) said and told him (?) toned it down in his book.
Both give a small laugh.
Because he told me he voted with (?). Not that he makes speeches (?).
DL
That’s not true.
AS
Ah, the (?) they don’t say in the (board?). About three Conservatives or something
similar.
DL
Well (?) wouldn’t show that. (?) wouldn’t (?) either (?) adopted on division which
was-
AS
I'm sorry, it’s the newspapers that (?).
DL
Ah. They were adopted on division. But there was one (?) where I think he was on the
wrong side, I think. I could be confusing him with
mumbles
.
AS
Mhm.
DL
Anyways, the story's completely out of the (?). (?) completely (?).
AS
I used to (?) verify Mackenzie’s,
Ian Mackenzie
’s (?). Other sources have tried to tell me Ian Mackenzie
mumbles
. Which I found quite hard to believe after reading (?).
DL
No, I think I would write this if I were writing. I would say that he was capable
of taking any position for political purposes.
DL
00:20:09.900
Yeah, with a little more sharpness or a little less of diluting principles to (vote?)
on. But he really felt it. He really meant it. He... you have a long history which
I’m sure you cannot cross.
The question for example of Oriental franchise and
Ian Mackenzie
was responsible for ads way back in the first federal election in 1935 or the first
provincial election in ‘34 or ‘33 ‘or ‘37. I forget. Large ads in the paper (?) Orientals,
vote
CCF
.
00:20:09.900
DL
And he was the main protagonist of the anti-Oriental vote regardless of their citizenship.
AS
‘Cause I always felt, well he didn’t say much about himself because he didn’t need
to (?) around. He, well his papers amaze me with the intensity of some of the things
he wrote.
DL
Mind you, he was a, he was to give you a little bit of what I (?) I missed a number
of occasions
mumbles
flattering in those years (?). He was a little bit like
Winch
in that respect.
AS
Mhm.
DL
He was a very emotional (?) as Winch was an emotional Latin-American, I don’t know.
Mumbles
some Latin blood which made Winch, which I thought, an attractive person. But this
Scottish (?) was this emotionally hard to (?). He did go, perhaps (?) thought his
expression.
AS
Right. I had the impression (?) little stops-
DL
That’s right. He was a racist. As I said, I state that not only from the basis of
his attitude to the Japanese-
AS
Right.
DL
... Orientals. Through the history (?) as far as he’s concerned.
AS
Right. Did he... there was one (?). Did the
CCF
people, director of the speech (?)
Mackenzie King
(?) of parliament in 1942?
AS
I (?) because I know from Mackenzie’s diary,
Mackenzie King
’s diary that that’s when he announced the Japanese would be evacuated. I was intrigued
to know other members of the House noted such things and diaries.
Nothing surprising other than (?) which (?) told me about. I also knew a great deal
of
US
-
Canada
cooperation discussed in that session. (Wallace’s?) papers. And I was wondering, I’ve
been trying to find out whether King said it was enough (?) conforming the policy
of the states deciding this.
DL
That secret session with the (?) was elected, I think or was it?
AS
Yes. I asked (?) and he said before.
DL
The thought that
bell rings
I don’t know-
Missing audio. 00:22:56.813
AS
Actually, I don’t have much else to cover.
DL
(?) sorry I can’t give you more. There’s some notes I’ve looked at that I could go
over the details maybe. But you’ve probably seen all that stuff.
AS
Yeah, I was thinking I could ask one of your research assistants maybe (?).
DL
Mumbles
they can look it up (?).
AS
For suggestions because I was (?) in the public archives. No (?) the Japanese.
Mumbles
correspondence (?) he seems to be very (?)
Small laugh
.
DL
Yeah...
Dr. Whitehorn
and I went through his stuff. There was (?) little on these avenues but not a lot
very much. Maybe because
Angus
(?) those things. The BC Federationist as they were then called, and sure
mumbles
. I think that may have been the name. (?) sure to have it in
Vancouver
somewhere.
Mumbles.
DL
Here you mean?
AS
Yes.
DL
I have a feeling that may be (pamphlet?) or things in newspapers.
AS
Ah, right, right.
DL
In fact, I have more than a few.
Mumbles.
DL
So I don’t think you’ll but I think the paper then was called Federationist. Or was
that the paper of the BC Federation? Anyway-
AS
00:25:03.771
I have (?)-
00:25:03.771
DL
Because I think there was an extended correspondence on the letter (?), et cetera.
Missing audio. 00:25:14.021
And it might also be of some use to you to indicate dates for looking at (?).
AS
I’m looking through the
(Vancouver) Sun
for the period.
DL
The worst of the (?) three was the (?) Herald. What was it called?
AS
Oh the newspaper?
DL
The newspaper (title/type?). My memory is (?) particularly (?).
DL
Ah, well not between any of my contacts. I am putting this to you on the basis of
my travelling to
British Columbia
during the provincial campaign. Either ‘41 or ‘42.
AS
Mhm.
DL
Mumbles
campaign in the
mumbles
.
AS
I can check the (?).
DL
I remember that very well. Two weeks
mumbles
City of Vancouver
and so on. And I remember very distinctly, giving
Ian Mackenzie
and his (?) general attitude towards the Orientals. (?) for the Japanese (?) matter
of the Oriental
mumbles
.
AS
So it was already being discussed.
DL
And getting large rounds of applause. Not a whimper, not a suggestion of criticism.
Mumbles.
Not a suggestion.
DL
It’s a
mumbles
in faith.
Mumbles.
You know, it reminds me of (?) just a few weeks (?) something else, reliving the 1970s.
Mumbles.
Even if you give people the best of faith the (?) get on.
AS
It’s very easy to (?) Prime Minister-
DL
Because parliament always (?) at that time
mumbles
.
AS
That is why I am terrified. I can sort of see my Japanese contacts in
Quebec
called french backlash. Working actually to produce better (?) French in other provinces.
I am just praying that know-nothings don’t get out of hand on either side.
Small laugh.
I’m so glad you’ve confirmed that for me.
DL
I really don’t have much to talk about that.
AS
00:29:30.000Alright.
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Title
David Lewis, interviewed by Ann Sunahara, 12 September 1977
Abstract
David Lewis
describes the
Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (CCF) Party
– members of cabinet in 1942, and the great hero
Angus MacInnis
who had logic and courage, was principled. He describes the BC party being divided,
that there was a genuine sense of fear. He names those who spoke up about the demonstrations
and the need for protection of Japanese Canadians.
Three divisive issues of the CCF party:
1) mishandling the Japanese Canadian issue
2) hysteria of fear
3) the local situation with racist policies and politicians.
Insights given into
Harold Winch
and McNeil’s personal stances on issues,
Frank J. McKenzie’s stance, Grace MacInnis. He compares the impressions of
Diefenbaker
to that of
Mackenzie King
. They discuss the oriental franchise issue where, in 1935,
Ian Mackenzie
ran large advertisements in papers saying a vote for CCF, meant a vote for Orientals.
This oral history is from the Nikkei National Museum and Cultural Centre's Kage Collection. Accession No. 2021-7-1-1-3. It describes the experience of exile.
Credits
Interviewer: Ann Sunahara
Interviewee: David Lewis
Transcriber: Sakura Taji
Audio Checker: Sakura Taji
XML Encoder: Sakura Taji
Publication Information: See Terms of Use for publication and licensing information.
Setting:
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Terminology
Readers of these historical materials will encounter derogatory references to Japanese
Canadians and euphemisms used to obscure the intent and impacts of the internment
and dispossession. While these are important realities of the history, the Landscapes
of Injustice Research Collective urges users to carefully consider their own terminological
choices in writing and speaking about this topic today as we confront past injustice.
See our statement on terminology, and related sources here.