Frank Moritsugu, interviewed by Alexander Pekic, 04 August 2015 (2 of 2)

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This interview is a follow-up to an earlier interview with Frank Moritsugu. That initial recording ended prematurely as a result of the recorder's memory card running out of space midway through the interview and can be found on a separate transcript and corresponding audio recording.

Ok so we are interviewing Mr. Frank Moritsugu on August 4th, 2015 for the Landscapes of Injustice research project. Thank you again Mr. Moritsugu for speaking with us.

Not at all. And I've got an improved hearing aid so I can hear you even better even though this is my good ear, we are fine. You speak at that volume level and I'll have no trouble. Ok so I said that this one is put together in '43 in a road camp.

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Frank is referring to a photo album in front of him.

So you're camp was in Revelstoke?

Yeah, near. There was a -- what it was, Alex, is that they, first of all, just announced that the Japanese immigrants that didn't have citizenship, like my father, the males were the only ones are going to be sent away. And they set up a bunch of work camps sort of headed towards the northeastern part of BC and near Jasper Park. So my father for instance, being sent there went to Yellowhead just by the Yellowhead pass at the border. And there were about 5 or 6 camps there. This is strictly non naturalized Japanese immigrants because citizenship was so hard to get. When they thought there was going to be a mass evacuation, so suddenly the Canadian born and the naturalized men, who are still immigrants, were sent to a different set of camps all together. I guess they thought we were going to contaminate each other or they with us. And ours was near Revelstoke. There were four camps in a place called Sicamous to Revelstoke. And the camps were , these are local names right. Yard Creek, that's where we were, my brother was, and then Taft and Three Valley and then Lake. There was 5 altogether. and then I'd say when I talk about those camps, and the thing is everyone is talking about our being a possible threat. Both of those camps, lines of camps in British Columbia were along the main railway lines. Our camps along the CPR and the immigrant men's and the Japanese nationals we're on the CNR main line. War time, okay, we're talking early '40s. So the war's been going on for some time. So every now and then right by the camps, from our camp we could see them, would go by the trains. Not only the passenger trains but the freight trains and so on. Armored tanks on the cars and so forth and of course troops on the cars and so forth. So that if actually it was possible for us to sabotage things, it was so bloody easy. And our camps there was only maybe -- a camp's full there's nearly three hundred guys there, there's only about a dozen World War 1 veteran guards, were our guards who carried their rifles for the first month. Then having got to know us they said the hell with the rifles, you don't need them. And they just wanted to be buddies laughs. It was that kind of thing. But as I say, and this is also true of the immigrant males camps, that if they wanted to cause trouble against Canada it was so easy. Absolutely the wrong -- not a strategic place to send us. But that shows you what a lot of BS the whole thing was unfortunately. Anyway, so, I had time in the camp and I had all of these, some of the camps -- like this picture was sent to me by my mother and after dad and I first sent to our respective camps. And then my brother who had turned 18 about the time I had just left in June of that year he joined me. So the two of us and Dad were the three adult males who were in the camps. And then there was Mom and Harvey and the rest. All 6 kids. Poor Harvey had to quit grade 10 -- and dad had a landscaping and gardening business but most of the equipment and also the Ford pickup truck that he used to use, they were going to confiscate them all. So he sold his to a local service garage and got 75 bucks for this pickup truck. But we had a couple bikes. So for a while I and Ken carried on for a couple of months before he had to come to my camp too. So they used to go up and cut grass and stuff on the bikes from our home. And two places that had lawn mowers in their garages bringing a few more bucks to the family which were desperately needed. So anyway.

That was just to keep up our morale. I guess mom had this picture taken, dad and me. Frank points to a picture in front of him on the table

That picture was taken in the camp?

No these are postcards.

The one on the last page, the family photo.

Oh yeah.

This on here.

No, no, they were still back in Vancouver.

OK. So this is before?

Yeah, before they were sent. Dad however, this is at Yellowhead Camp, we see about the same time.

Right.

And what does it say pause - Frank reads notes on the photos. Anyway, I'm in -- Frank motions to a photo this picture, here is me in front of our Bunkhouse in our camp near Revelstoke, Yard Creek. That's the official name of the camp near Malakwa.

Did you draw this?

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Alex is referring to a drawing in the album.

Yeah I drew this for certain, because I really thought at that time that I would become a cartoonist. So these are in Vancouver

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Frank is referring to photos

, brothers you know at home in the front gate on the building where there is the National Biscuit Factory. That's where that big arrow is, yeah, yeah, at the corner. So these are Vancouver home pictures, except for the middle ones. And this is Dad who of all the married men both in our camps and the national camps, were sent down to where they're going to have the family sent. They had to build the place first. So dad was really united with Mom and 6 kids, just Ken and I we're the ones that were separate. So these are mostly home pictures, and then those two in front of their home in the Tashme camp. And me, I'm really bigger in pictures. These are mixtures of Vancouver pictures -- see Stanley Park and Vancouver and so on, as opposed to Harvey and Ted, the youngest and the oldest of the kids there in Tashme. This is my bedroom back in Vancouver where I used to read late at night with a flashlight under my pillow. And so, this is Tashme. And I've got all kinds of pictures of Tashme. But it was the largest of the family camps, two thousand people there. When we visited, we were allowed to visit the next year. They were concerned about our morale and didn't want us to cause problems, so they said you got family in one of the family camps in BC. You can visit them for a couple weeks. And so that's why Ken, my brother Ken, is standing with sister Eileen and little brother Ted in front of the house. And so some of these pictures were taken by us when we visited, it's a mixture. And now, this is before we left. We used to go berry picking in the summer once you got to be about 14 years old. And so here I mentioned, 1935, '36 I went to a farm, Huntington, BC, in '38 and '39 and '40. I'm sorry in '37 I went to Mission, BC and then the rest of the time right through to my graduating year, Mount Lehman, BC. So the first camp was owned by a man named John Brown. Obviously not Japanese. And he had a large camp and there were lots of people from all over the coastal area who came there. And then after that we went to Japanese-owned camps, all growing strawberries particularly but raspberries, local berries, blackberries, etcetera. And so some of these pictures are at the camps.

By camp you mean--

I mean strawberry picking, rather.

Right. This is pre-internment.

Yeah, yeah, you see, 1940. Most of them are the '30s, late '30s, you know. Then, this is even school pictures.

See, you definitely could have been a cartoonist or illustrator.

Laughs Well, I was the high school cartoonist. I even made a film, black and white film where they use some of my pictures to divide the sections and stuff like that. So this is me in grade 7 at Kitsilano Junior High. Mr. Freshwater. Now look at this, there's me and I'm the only none, you know, white in this class. And some of them -- but in a public school, Henry Hudson School, it was more like 1/4 to 1/3 used to be Japanese. And then we got there, partly because, but here we are 12 years old. At 14 you could go to work. Until then you weren't allowed by provincial law.

And as a result a lot of the families in the Depression years couldn't afford for the kids to keep on going. I was a little bugger, and I was a little younger because I skipped a grade. And my family was a pro-education family anyway, so off they went. These are my two buddies from grade 7 right through to 12.

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Frank is referring to photos in the photo album.

Yeah, Bill Auten and Bob Brand. So then, here we are, Japanese Anglican Church that we are members of, it's the junior Church. And this is some of the high school pictures, lunchtime and so on, different guys, God knows. All this must have been one of those class pictures too. And I was the editor of the monthly Kitsilano High School newspaper and they published this picture of us and a couple -- Bill Ryan and Doug Whit, we are all working on the paper and down at the Kitsilano Times Printing thing. In other words it wasn't just mammograph sheets, actually printed monthly. I was elected by the staff, I was the only non-white there and they elected me editor-in-chief. So I'm the school cartoonist but I also like the writing part. I always loved English and I was one of the guys that they picked as captain of the spelling bee teams, even from Grade Nine or so. And so, I was that 'but', because of the attitude of the province at the time, and I never dreamt that I could become -- not just editor-in-chief, but any reporter or anything on not just a big downtown papers, but even a community paper like the Kitsilano Times. There I was, I had done this. There wasn't a hint to me or to the family at all what my future career might be because a lot of things happened in between that changed a lot of things all the way around. When I finally got out of the army, jumping ahead a little bit, and the veterans benefits, I think I mentioned this last time too. 10 acre farm or post-secondary education. Chose post-secondary education because I hated the farm because I already had one year of manure cleaning. And I actually applied for a college of art. Because a guy like me could become an artist, but I couldn't become a guy out front, being a reporter or anything. But then a lot of things happened that made it possible for me to be a journalist. So eventually when I ended up in University it was to study to be a journalist rather than be a commercial artist. Anyway, these are Kitsilano High School pictures and this is the Kitsilano community pictures. They both showed up at the 50th reunion of our graduation thing. Pat Milder there and Pat's boobs were just as big then as they used to be laughter. She was the one kid with the boobs and another girl, Nancy Lundy, was the one gal with the legs. And every class you could see every bit of her legs practically laughter. And this is the Kitsilano -- Koyukai is the Kitsilano Japanese Language School graduates organization. We used to have -- sorry.

So you drew this in '43?

Yeah, at the camp.

At the camp.

I had time on my hands right, so I was putting this -- I borrowed the camps timekeepers typewriter regularly. So he used to let me come have it, so that's why all of these captions -- So anyway these are all again before Pearl Harbor and life out in -- and then we jump. See this is a two week leave. And this was announced in January and we were allowed to -- we had been there since, in our case, since I was first on the camp, April 1942. And we could take the two weeks leave in February to go to the camp called Tashme where my family was sent.

Now this paper you mentioned was published by the Canadian authorities for distribution--

That's right. No, no it was put out by Japanese Canadians, ok. It was the only English language one because it was put out by Canadian born Japanese Canadians like us and older than us who were mainly university graduates. Just for a voice. It's called Independent Weekly here. The initial name was Voice of the Second Generation, the subtitle of the New Canadian.

And it is the first place where I got a job both in Vancouver, and later in Kaslo after I left the camp. And also in Winnipeg, I was on the New Canadian three times. That also gave me a real background. Now, when we went to Tashme, so suddenly, after 8 or 9 months after being in a camper way up in the foothills of the Rockies, total monastic life and so forth, suddenly we were allowed to not only go see our families but also we were allowed to go to a place where there were young girls. Which is why I was emphasizing that, you see.

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Frank is referring to one of his drawings.

I must have been given me at a dance we had there. Anyway, so here are these places. This is the shop at the camp. And all these girls, it was February, so all the coats. And these are family pictures, these ones. Or these are us with our friends, hadn't seen them in a while. But these girls -- one of them was my sister, sister-in-law that passed away last year. And this is, from way up there, the largest camp. And all these streets with tar paper shacks on both sides right through.

What was this one called?

Tashme.

That's Tashme.

After the three head men of the so-called BC Security Commission that was responsible for kicking us out and moving us out of the coastal area. And it was E.P. Taylor, T A, and somebody, forget his first name, Shiras, S H I R A S. And Shiras was a RCMP guy. He was a senior officer. And Mead was the third guy. And the first two letters of their names, TASHME. And what it was, it was really from a -- E.P. Taylor's ranch. He had a big ranch out there near Hope, BC, just beyond the border of the hundred mile protected area, Hope, BC. And he leased the land for abandoned show horses and that kind of stuff. So there's a place where there were several buildings were there were barns and stuff like this, which were all supposedly cleaned out and all the shacks were built there, by people like my dad and so forth, to house the families, women and children when they came out. And so these are pictures taken during their visit in February of 1943. That's why the snow and everything, still. And the variations in the coats, long coats, must have been a warmer day. So -- it was very natural that there is a lot of pictures of girls that we took back with us. This is some of the guys working there and so on. Oh yeah. Two bath houses. one for men, one for women. they were these communal bath houses, Japanese style. So maybe about a dozen people could get into the bathtub at the same time, but you had to watch yourself clean before you are allowed in, so a lot of people could come in later. And in Japan, if you are a guest and you're staying overnight or something, you were the first one, if you time it right during your visit, first one to take a bath that day. The freshest water. That's the biggest thing that they can do. Then the family comes in later. Anyhow, this is all still Tashme, pictures of all Tashme, that the focusing. And some of these guys also came from our camp and visiting their families as we were doing, you see? They even built a hospital as they did for a couple of other camps. And this is after we left because April '43, but there is softball going on in Tashme. They had all kinds of things -- oh yeah. May Day, they had a the Queen and the whole thing. They had Wolf Cubs and Boy Scouts and stuff. In other worlds, the adults at the family camps did everything possible to make it look for their kids, to make life normal. Which was uphill some of the time, you know?

Anyways, so, those people who were real young kids at the time, say under 12 or under 10, used to spend 2 or 3 years in those camps before they came out east. Some of them will say “That was the best time of our lives”, you see? Because of course, they had no concern or understanding of why the hell they were sent that way, sent away, like a summer holiday. Anyway, here is a picture of the camp life. We played ball too, you see. There was creeks and ponds around so you could swim and so on. And as I mentioned I think to you -- here's you know near Sicamous, the Western end of our line of camps. And the postcard Shuswap Lake. So --here's the ball ground near our camp. And then this is actually the station, but these were taken at our camp. And here, there were some Finnish farmers around. And not only young kids and young ladies, mostly blonde, but also big blonde tall fellows. And they had the war deferment for a farm, so agricultural deferment. Ao at the very beginning, when they were still building our camp and we were on the railway siding, called Camby, and we lived there. First of all we had no bath house. Growing up Japanese, we were taught to have a bath every day. We found that if we paid to bits one of the Finish farmers would let us come to his sauna. And that's where we learned what a sauna is, getting steamed on. Anyhow. and with all these young guys around, we played ball against them sometimes. And that was okay, that was nice and they were friendly, after being careful about us and vice versa. And the girls used to come and cheer us. And then one day, after our camp was built, which was a couple of miles up. And on the weekend there was a special dance that the Finn young people were holding. And we were invited. So about 12 or 13 of us dressed in their Sunday best walk down the two miles to the camp to go there. And they were playing all this big band music and stuff like this. Well, when they start jitterbugging, our city guys, which most of us were, new a lot more about jitterbugging than the big Finnish guys did. So the little Blondie's wanted to dance with us guys, a lot. So much so, that suddenly towards the back, not wallflowers, a bank of tall guys sitting there with these looks on their faces laughter. And suddenly they started advancing and we said “For Christ's sake let's get the hell out of here. Come on, come on!” laughter So everybody looks around. Thank God we weren't wearing coats or anything. And so actually we ran up the bloody hill away from there. And I think they stopped chasing us after about a mile. But that was the end of our relationship with the Finns. laughter

Right. So prior to that it was a cordial relations.

It was indeed. And they were fascinated by us, because they have never seen anyone like us before.

But it was the parents of the people, the younger people that had a dance that were immigrants to Canada? Could you recall?

Oh no. They were the Canadian-born Finns.

So even the parents were Canadian-born Finns?

No, not necessarily. They might have been. They might have been immigrants. Maybe a mixture.

A mixture, right. Interesting.

And just like on the other side, to the east of us in the camp, there was a whole bunch of Seventh Day Adventists, you know, having their farms. So their church was on Saturday instead of Sunday and things like this. And even us, getting away from a big city like Vancouver, still learning new things about how people are.

Sure,

So here is our camp's bathroom. And see the oil drum in here. There is a bog old drum that they feed in from the outside. And one man, it was him I think, it was his responsibility every morning to get up there and cut wood and burn it. And after filling this with the water from the creek, the actual Yard Creek as it was called.

And so they even put up showers inside the building. But that cold water was out of the creek, so even at the height of Summer, icy water you know? Mountain water. So you had this. When 6 or 7 guys could get in at the same time. So that was one of the pleasures, physical pleasures that we had.

Who built that? Was it the internees or--

Yeah. This is why we stayed in the siding and if you guys started working on the road part. The most of them, the earliest people that came as they came in and groups, every day we went up to the site of the actual camp and built all the buildings. So they had sort of a cleared area, and they build the buildings. Two bunk houses, a mess hall, a staff house, the bath house and the outhouse. And so build all that and eventually when they're all ready we got out of the railway siding coaches and that became our permanent place. but no hydro, no water. We had to -- to get the water we had to go down to the creek, kind of thing. So there was all kinds of physical stuff we had to do. Now this is more pictures of the camp. Here we are. So this is us sitting again all by our bunkhouse. This guy here is a real close buddy of me and Betty's.

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Betty is Frank's wife.

And, because we still belong to the same organization. But this is how we met each other. We were from different parts of Vancouver. And we knew each other then, and we caught up the last maybe 15 years ago. Caught up and you know -- we are real close buddies. And this is my brother that join me in the camp, there's two of us. My brother Ken.

That's your brother there?

Yeah. And this is the kitchen gang. I was with Chief Flunky, so here I am here, and I was with Chief Flunky, and except for the last few weeks of the camp where I worked at the gravel pit, I was always in the kitchen gang which meant I had to get up earlier, work later, but I would get a space in between. Guys are out there killing themselves.

So you thought you had a better deal than the guys out in the Gravel Pit?

Here's the other thing. On the West Coast, especially then, the weather is so temperate that you hardly ever get natural ice. Or if you get it, it isn't firm enough to skate on. In fact that is dangerous. Stanley Park has a big lake in it called Lost Lagoon. And actually people would go out on the ice and fall through, a lot. So you couldn't afford to pay the fee to go to an artificial rink, especially during the Depression. So suddenly were up here in the interior, up in the mountains and we get ice. So suddenly we are all ordering by mail order from Eaton from Winnipeg for skates and sticks. And then we learn how to skate. Some guys didn't learn beyond leaning on a stick, but that's another story. And we used to -- started playing hockey and eventually we used to play against other camps. Now here, the other side. See these buildings? That's the staff house I guess. There the mess hall and so on. And this is the creek in between. On the other side, you see across the bridge, the other side we cleared, the kitchen gang, everybody else is out there working on the road, digging the road and blowing up boulders and everything. And we went out there and cleared this space. See we did the rolling and flooded it with water. And so we got a skating rink for ourselves. And some of the kitchen guys really couldn't skate learned how that way. We found ways to amuse ourselves as much as possible as you can imagine. The only way you can survive.

Would you say, I'm curious to know, you guys are playing hockey in these pictures but -- playing baseball in others. Was baseball more popular than hockey?

Oh yeah.

Hockey was more something to do because it was cold?

Among the Japanese Canadians, and I think this is even true of the Japanese Americans because they were still concentrated on the Pacific coast, the real reason being the immigrants come and they stay closest you know? Because they came from the Pacific.

And it's only after the Canadian-born mature but they start to spread out, those out on the Pacific coast, go eastward, in both countries. Baseball, not only popular, not just because it was popular on the coast but even in Japan before the integrated. And now we're talking about 1900, so on. Baseball had been introduced by Americans into Japan so much so even -- I don't know how much baseball dad played as a young fellow in Japan before he came to Canada in 1912. But he had done some, he was familiar with it. But there was no skating until much -- many, many decades later. So that was part of the reason why in addition to the local love of baseball with the others. So that the leagues - this is why the Vancouver Asahi baseball team eventually ended up, pre-war team ended up in the Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame. They were the best of us all and our dream is kids with learning to play catch, throw the ball and so forth, and hit the ball. If you had any talent at all you are hoping you make one of the junior teams of the Asahi so he could become a Asahi guy eventually. Then you become a real hero. I was never quite that good although I loved the game. So I never dreamt of becoming an Asahi, but I became one of the ardent fans. My brother Ken was the real athlete if anything he would have tried I guess. But we had enough. There's Terry there.

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Frank is referring to a photo.

Who signed that?

He did. He's the guy I told you, we are friends again. We met for the first time. Most of these people, him we knew, he was from Kitsilano too. But most of these guys are from other parts so we all got to know them. So these are all still at our camp.

Yard Creek Dodgers. Alex reads from the photo album

Yes, sorry, I don't know where that picture went.

But they formed a team there in the camp.

Uh huh. And oh yeah, in September 1942, so that they were talking 4, 5 months after we got there. And I am the chief flunky in the kitchen and suddenly I got stomach troubles, serious stomach troubles. So actually they said you got to go see a doctor. And there was a special doctor I think in Revelstoke. We had to get on a train and go for an hour or so. And I think they were chosen to look after people like us in the camps. We went over there and he said well you have appendicitis. It's not serious but, what the heck, you don't need your appendix and why not get the government to pay for it anyway. So I was in the Revelstoke Queen Victoria Hospital. There I am and obviously I am crazy about the nurse or the waitress, whenever she was. And apparently she was looking for a missing serviette that I had hidden. That happened approximately 2 times a day laughter. And those were those gags. And there is Revelstoke. Beautiful country, you know? Okay, other camps and other places.

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Frank is referring to a heading in his photo album.

This is in Ontario, in the sugar beet camps. There is Jasper Park Lodge. This guy, who was maybe eighty years older than me, was -- curious enough, had to go to Japanese national camps because his older brother was born here, his mother went to Japan and suddenly gave birth to Yoshi. So he had to go to the national camp. However, that's why he sent me these pictures, he had enough Japanese thank God, but he came back as a teenager to Canada. Here is my dad. That's the other thing. They are only there a few months before they had to come down and build the family camps. Look at all these buildings, Japanese style buildings and so forth. The guys did it because they had the time on their hands outside of the working days. And they have these picnics. Here's dad when they went to visit another camp. That's why they're all dressed up. And these other guys, they are all Kitsilano gang having a brief reunion.

So the older Nationals, they play ball too. Yellowhead team goes to Lucerne to play that team.

Lucerne was the name of a camp?

Yeah, another camp. Lucerne, Blue River, there's about 5 or 6 camps there for the older people. Okay so this is also from Tashme. They sent me pictures from Tashme. So there was the May Queen. And this is Vic Katanaga who is a little bit younger than me, same age as the brother that was in Tashme. And he was a scout in Vancouver so he was one of the leaders of the scouts in Tashme. This is one of my sisters and this is my mother and they are having a camp, a picnic rather. Here they are, softball team. That's my brother Harvey, and Tom Komio, this guy is Mezeguchi Doug, he's gone. Anthony, now one of these guys I thought, I'm not sure -- this guy here. He's one of the few Canadian-born guys, grew up in BC, went through that whole wartime thing, who ended up in Japan. Sometime, partly -- especially the Canadian-born guys that end it up in Japan after the war because their parents to don't want to start all over again after being in the camps in BC. And the war ended and so they said the heck with it -- and the government is willing to send them to Japan and pay for it. So they went along and drag themselves along. And most of those guys came back first chance they got in the early 1950s. Tom stayed and is still there in Osaka. And so the all time that I've been there for pleasure or business trips I've looked him up. It's a real next gang. And then naturally of course I had a collection of girls, and most of these girls are from Kitsilano.

I'm wondering about this little caption you wrote.

Which one?

Over here. Alex points to a caption in the photo album

Ok, you read it.

Alex reads the caption aloud Looking back 35 years, the starvation for female companionship is so evident in the arrangement of the photos in this album in 1943. The Tashme visit photographs show many more young females than they do men, and there were many men there too, those that had been exempted for various family reasons from being sent to road camps. But how important to each of us in camp were photographs of girls, whether friends or not. We are fortunate if we knew girls to write to who would send photographs to you. Sounds silly, but one had to allow for Japanese Canadian propriety, for Nissei reserve and getting hell from protective parents on the girls' side. Nane Wosubo--

What are you doing? That kind of thing. The parents would be saying to them, well, so.

Alex continues to read Bless the girls who sneaked photos into their letters to a camp friend or whose mothers were broad-minded enough not to object. We needed that.

Laughs I wrote that in 1978, looking back.

So these photos would have been sent to you by mail from these girls?

Yeah. The mail was censored but they didn't censor pictures like that. They were allowed.

So they would have been reading everything going in and out of the camps?

Yes, everything. And the big problem was the people who wrote in the Japanese language, and obviously if I had to I could have to Dad and Mom. Later we found out that there were so few censors that had the Japanese language ability, it would take a couple of months for the letter -- even if there was nothing in the letter that the sensor wanted to stop. But in English or in Japanese the sensor would do two things. One was to black out some areas and send it on. Or, they would actually cut it with a razor blade. Or, some letters they just wouldn't stop from going. And so much had to do with people discouraging people in BC from moving away.

Because that was one of the policies rather than military security. Had bugger all to do with it. I had a friend of mine who actually ended up, instead of the camp in BC, his family decided, even though city people, to go to Alberta on a sugar beet farm, so that they could go together to farm. So Roy is writing me and I'm in the camp. He wrote to me and mentioned something and they cut it with a razor blade. Then what that meant was that there's a part of the page that you couldn't decipher because it was cut out. So I said “Roy, from here on please write on only one side of the paper.” laughter And later when I saw him, couple years later, he sort of remembered although he hadn't seen the thing. And I told him about the time I said I wrote about the both sides. he said “Yeah, I think I told you about a strike that was going on in a mill in Alberta because of the problems with the sugar beet farms.” And that's what they didn't want us to know about. So it was that kind of world. That's that time.

I'm curious to know, these photos, where you taking some of them? Were they sent to you?

Most of them were taken by us. We had -- the thing was this. First of all, they confiscated all the cameras, little box cameras and so forth as well as -- they confiscated radios, just ordinary radios, everything. Not just short wave radios, even long wave. It was all done after Pearl Harbor, even before they decided to kick us out. Once we got to the camp we discovered suddenly that: a, we could order, by mail order, battery radios which allowed us even in a road camp to listen to the Hit Parade and stuff like this and keep up with things. Plus, we could actually get -- order cameras. Oh by the way, about once a month or once every five or six weeks, different camps would take turns, we wouldn't be allowed to go to Revelstoke if we wanted to for something like a 6 hour visit. We have to go on a train there. And sometimes you would take advantage especially if you could save up enough money. We would go on the train and do two things. One was that we would have a decent lunch instead of the stuff we had to have at the camp, at a restaurant. B, we would go see a matinee movie, and a guy like me go and buy all the magazines and books that I possibly could that I'm interested in. Because I'm running out of things to read all the time, no newspapers coming in or anything. So we do all that, so this is why -- and the other thing is we could take the film in and get the pictures developed that way and come back with a few more rolls, just in case. And that's how all the camps, family camps, men's camps and so forth, there are pictures all over which is something anyway. So it's a real mixture with the government was saying why we were sent away and then in prison so to speak and what the real military concern was, which is bugger all laughs. So that gives you a sense of things. Now, this continuing as even more, a collection Frank opens another photo album, so here are pictures of Tashme, but as you can see snow laden. 14 Mile Ranch, that's E. P. Taylor's 14 Mile Ranch were Tashme was built.

On his own property?

Yeah. So that was the entrance, that was the mark. And hear some of the buildings before you get to see the shacks themselves. The hospital --

And you took these photos?

No, no. these were -- I don't know where I got these anymore. But they are kind of almost official pictures, you know? And --

Pause And some of them that I think dad sent, I had some of them blown up properly. Some are decent pictures, they come in nice and clearly. These are all immigrants men. Obviously he is visiting because he has his -- even a vest on. Now that's a Tashme place. Oh the bath house, that's why the steam and all the wood that's piled up there. And that's our bath house. Some of these pictures, you see that tiny version. These guys both became doctors, dentists and Judo black belts. The Hori Brothers. And there's the boy scout guy I told you about. In fact he has a neck kerchief on. And there's the maple dance, all Tashme. Ball game I guess. No, tug of war. And it says 6th Avenue versus 7. They had 10 avenues in Tashme, rows of houses. So it was one of a few games to other. In fact our family was on 6th Avenue. Here's the Scouts guide of honor. Maybe not complete uniform was because they couldn't always afford it but some of them brought them over. There's that ball team picture again. And this was also Tashme. It says “ the fire house gang versus the old men.” Firehouse guys were young fellows for God's sake. Yeah here is sports day. Class 8B girls. I got all their names. Sister June. And it's a line up at the Japanese office for show tickets. Oh yeah, there were two men, Mr. Tsuki who was actually an uncle-in-law of my brother Harvey and Mr. Narishi who made a living back on the coast of getting films, usually silent films, black and white silent films, from Japan. And they go from community to community, so the church, temple, school home and so forth and show them. Instead of music accompanying this on, they would actually mouth and do the voices, male and female. And there will always be an argument among the older folk about wether Mr. Tsuki's woman is more convincing than Mr. Narishi's laughter. This is -- and when they were sent to camp, they were among the people, few people, allowed to move from camp to camp to show their films. Again to keep the morale up so we don't have trouble, for the people running it.

The film's though they would have had previously? They kept these films?

Oh yeah, and they showed them again. Now see here are some guys who are in the family camp rather than the road camp. And I'm not sure what the connection was but sometimes it's because their father is gone already. Their mother is widowed. Then the oldest son is also allowed to go down, this happened. He was the man who started the first Boy Scout Troop of Japanese Canadians back in Chemainus on Vancouver Island. He tried and tried and tried to get himself into a Troop and they wouldn't accept him. So then he got his Boy Scout training through correspondence and then go out of those two days to be able to start his own troop. So this is Shugi Oshida and he's a real pioneer of his own kind. And these are young lads like my brother Harvey. They were his age, and they were in Tashme.

Harvey was older than you?

Harvey was, let's see, ok -- Harv was born in 1925. He's still around but has dementia now so he's forgotten everything. So 1925 so that makes 75 and 15, my goodness. No he's not quite that old. Hang on.

I'm 92, my brother would have been 93. Oh yeah so I guess Harvey is over 90, or just 90. And this is my brother we lost, but he was a year younger than me, Ken.

He passed away when?

Yeah, about 3 or 4 years ago. Here's, okay, part of our kitchen crew. I'm not in it, my brother's in it. Now, of this a lot, he was the third chef. The main chef in the camp was a white man. First it was a French Canadian guy and then another fellow, I forget what his origin was, but he was a real, uproarious, because I think he had a real thing for Kate Smith, you know, the big fat large singer who sings God Bless America. And that was his favorite you see. He used to rave about Kate Smith all the time to us. So Ken was the third guy, the third cook. He did, not really, most of the Japanese style offerings maybe once a week or so. But we could get rice almost every day. And the other thing, despite the rationing and everything, we always used to get a lot of meat and things like rice, no problem. The government had, you know, that kind of -- laughs thing I guess. Again I think it had a lot to do if they really mistreated us beyond, physically mistreated us, they would really have trouble on their hands. They would try to us look after us that way. So here again -- oh ,this is our gang from Yard Creek who went to visit. And most of us are kitchen guys too. Dad is with us, I must have taken the picture. So here I am here, we all take turns I guess. And I think of these gals I know about five of them because they come from the same part of Vancouver as us. They even worked at the store they had there. Some of them actually worked in the Commission office that ran the place. So you could get jobs like that.

What was in the store? What could you buy there?

Oh just grocery store kind of thing. Real minimum wages in stuff like this, but just enough to manage.

So food, you said the kitchen you worked in, that was sort of the communal kitchen for the entire camp?

Well no. We -- goes beyond that. It was actually a mess hall and in the kitchen and we prepared for the entire group. And then come in and eat in the mess hall which we -- and so if you're not involved in the cooking and so forth you were setting the plates and the knives and forks and stuff like that, bowls if you're having soup today. And then afterwards clean up everything. Not just the Chinaware, but everything including the bloody floors, and clean the place up. So that was our job. I learned how to clean out these big bloody tubs that were about this big Frank motions with his hands that you couldn't reach the bottom of laughter. You know but that's how things had to be made, when you're feeding all these guys. This goes back to Vancouver. North Vancouver, Lynn Valley we had a picnic, one of the Japanese language schools. So this grade here, including me, we are all roughly the same age group. And all Kitsilano Language School guys. And here we are, a Tashme picture. Some girls here again. He was in Tashme because his father was gone. I don't know why his brothers were there too, because one of them was old enough to be sent to camp. And there's that picture again that mom sent us when -- after Dad and I were in our camps. And then here's dad with Henry and Ted. Henry is now 80. He's the other journalist. He's still in, because he's in the States, he still a news editor at the daily newspaper in Long Island.

And at 80. In fact I saw him a few days ago because we had a family ball game on Sunday.

Where was that?

Up in Richmond Hill. Ted's -- lives in Richmond Hill and him and his wife organize this, host this thing and we all go up there and catch up. Sometimes we'd see each other once a year. So these are, what is it? Ted, Ted was born in 1939. The youngest of the eight of us. And here's the irony. He became a chartered accountant up in Richmond Hill and did very well. And about 4 years ago his I started to go and he could not drive anymore. And he has now become one of the stars of a blind hockey team where they play with a puck they can hear, because they can't see it. So he's still in there. Our family is -- we are all sports nuts. Even if we can't play too well, we love the sport, various sports. Pause This must be a long time ago, berry picking. My goodness. My last year berry picking.

Did you go berry picking after all of this?

No, no, this is before.

Right. But did you--

And by the way this is a picture of Tashme. Here is the stores and stuff like that, an official buildings and schools. And these are all the shacks. 10 avenues.

Is this the perimeter fence around it?

I think so, yeah. something around there.

This looks like a stream.

There was a stream there. One drowned, one little child drowned there during the time I recall. I remember hearing about it. And finally this thing Frank pulls out a pamphlet. A few Sundays ago at the cultural center, they had their annual, they call it Arigato, thank you day to the volunteers who helped out at the center. And one of the features they have had for several years now is the awarding of a nissei veteran, us nissei, veterans award. The last 3 years I guess including this year, I've been the one that went up there with one other visitor, veteran rather, not two because the third guy didn't show up this year. And there are so few of us left. Then I explained the whole what it's all about and who did what and so forth. And then we give it to one or two kids. This year it was two kids. Both -- either people in the martial arts classes or in Japanese dance, odori. And this year it was 2 odori girls. One of them not Japanese at all but who is really into Japan. But I took this along because, many on top of here are coming out to Asia. That's where the --these guys are all trained in Vancouver, including these guys too, in Japanese language and so forth to be able to help the British out there. And so Min and I were there this year. Tom who suggested -- this is Tom here, who is also part of our family. In fact we are all related. Tom was a -- this is part of the group that I went overseas with but I'm not in the picture because I got pulled out to do another operation. This was taken in India. And this was taken in India.

✱

Frank is now speaking about photos he is shuffling through

. And we were done and coming home and so all of us are Sergeants in the Canadian Army Intelligence Corps and we had been in different places. Edgar, Saigon. Elmer ended up in Hong Kong. Sid in Malaya and so forth. Jin and Fred in Rangoon. Albert in Ceylon. Harold in Singapore too and Ernie I think. Anyway. And I was the only one who was strictly in India in different places. But we are all on our way home here. But the reason why we have these hats on, they are Australian bush hats. These berets are the normal overseas look during that time.

But as soon as we hit India or Southeast Asia, first chance we got at the camp we are going to stay at, we got these bush hats. Just in case we had to go into the jungle, which is so likely in so many places. We needed that because neither a beret or a helmet would really protect you from all the stuff in the really heavy, heavy jungle. You need a bush hat. As well as keeping the sun off of you. So that's why there's one two three four five of us with bush hats and the other four with berets. Anyway that's all the pictures showing what we went through that I could discover.

No, they are wonderful. Thank you.

Now, you haven't asked me any questions.

Laughs. What I was wondering, a couple of things. When you mention that you could mail order things in the camp, what -- so you said people bought cameras, radios, sports equipment. What else did people buy? Do you remember? Can you recall what kind of things they would have got?

By mail order, it was usually something that you could not get in Revelstoke. or, naturally, the closest place to our camp, Malakwa, and you know the proprietor there had a sort of grocery store. So that it was more of this like, whether skates or radio or cameras, more technical stuff. Theoretically you could probably get any of that stuff in Revelstoke too. But somehow you only go to Revelstoke every now and then and it's going to cost you money. But if you get hold of a catalog that became available, mail order catalog and you send the order in, it was a lot easier all around. And because we had time on her hands we didn't mind waiting until the goodies came in. I think that has a lot to do with it. I don't remember much else what people were getting except the serious smokers for instance. And the drinkers for that matter. I think smoking and maybe the booze, I'm not so sure because I didn't drink at all in those days, maybe you were able to get it in the local Malakwa store, and cigarettes for sure. And you could do that. It was about a two and a half mile walk, which you know, in those days we were all very healthy. Quite well to be walking up hill and down the country roads. When we played ball against another team and we had to go to that team to their park to play, then we were able to use the camps trucks to do that. But outside of that when we had to go to personal things, we had to go on our own. But what the heck we were all young, relatively young, especially the Canadian born ones. So we could handle it. I think that plus farming one year in Ontario after the reunion -- joining the family in the farm in St. Thomas Ontario. One year of farming. When I joined the army, when we finally got our chance. I was probably one of the most physically fit guys in our entire Platoon. Now you sort of had to pay a price to get that way laughter. That was one thing. I became aware of it as soon as we got into the marching and stuff like that, and climbing and other stuff we had to do and seeing some of the guys have a hell of a time doing it. And I think, “Oh, that's nothing”. Even crummy things had positive sides to it I guess.

When you went to the camp, did you take many things with you?

We were only allowed in our case 1 kit bag and one suitcase. So whatever you can cram into that. For instance, I took my Judo outfit with me. Only used it once when one another guy that I had fought in a competition before, we did a demonstration for the Finns and so forth. That's all I did. But you know, well -- one guy in our camp, Tom Owitsugi was kind enough to bring a portable gramophone.

The kind that was only this big Frank motions with his hands and you wound it all the time and you have to buy needles regularly. And a whole big set of Big Band records, Artie Shaw and stuff like this. And all that was wonderful, plus the fact that Tom was one of the regular guys that we had working, while us kitchen guys would have this time in between. Plus when I was recouping from my appendicitis operation I had all the time in the world in the bunkhouse. And I was in my pajamas all day. and I'd borrow his gramophone and records and I think on the trip into -- I think I did it by myself, or I may have borrowed some buddies, I had a book called Arthur Murray's How To Dance with diagrams which way is which and so forth. And that's how I taught myself how to dance. Because in high school we used to go to dances and I couldn't dance for the damned of me. I usually had to make sure I didn't step on somebody, poor thing. Learn how to dance and when we did that visit to Tashme, the two week visit, they held a special dance for us. At least I didn't have to be careful of avoiding the gals in-step laughter. And so, in other words, some people grow up things like that. But the other things we accumulated through the buying you know. Because once we were leaving the camp, for whatever reason, whether we moved, this time we were not limited. We were taking everything we got. So we're allowed to do that anyway you know. But we couldn't, we didn't accumulates too much partly because we didn't have the money. The other thing was we got paid so much an hour, $0.25 an hour or something like this. And so what happened was my brother Ken and I, maybe two-thirds of our monthly pay we would send to the family, Mom and Dad in Tashme, because we could manage with just a little extra bit since our food and everything was being paid for. It was only the little luxuries that you needed money for and so forth. And that still left us enough money to go down to Malakwa and buy a chocolate bar and some gum. And other guys that needed cigarettes had to spend more money.

So you, when you left the camp, your photo album went with you. Did you hold on to any other things that you can recall?

From the camp?

Yeah.

Not really, no, I don't think so. partly because when I left the camp, in my case, I went to a family camp, Kaslo, to work on the New Canadian for the first time. So they had everything there. And it was a mining ghost town. And they really had before the Japanese moved in, they already had a school including a high school and a few grocery stores and stuff like that, you see. And even a hardware store as I can recall it. For real minimal two or three hundred people, then the whole Japanese Canadians moved in. There were a few other things that operated. Or, but, the hardware store for instance was hardly doing any business at all and so when they were setting up the schools for the Japanese kids, they first took over the hardware store property which was on the main street anyways. It was handy for everybody, and using that and building it into classrooms and things. So all in all we didn't have to -- needing many things as long as we can get a hold of as I say, pens and pencils and stuff like that and paper, we could manage somehow. And I had made good friends with the timekeeper so not only could I use the typewriter, I would send stuff into the new Canadian from the camp, which I typed and I would mail it. Stuff like that. So just became automatic really. So we got away with the little stuff provided. We had enough clothes I think probably we bought some more winter wear that first winter.

One, because not only was it a hell of a lot colder than the coast weather, but it also turned out to be one of the severe as the winters in British Columbia history. The 1942 - 43 winter. And so yeah weather, mitts and gloves. I don't remember, I can't remember whether I bought a coat or not. But we did that kind of thing. And boots, particularly. Because city boots and country boots even work boots are not the same thing.

You mentioned earlier that before your father left he sold his truck and his other supplies from his business?

I'm a little bit unclear about what happened to the other supplies and it may have been, since we stayed in the house, a few supplies he left there really to cope with sort of, you know. Harvey for instance could keep our place looking reasonably tidy and so forth. Yeah the ones I think he might have passed on to other people that didn't have to go to camp yet. It was just a time-lapse, so they could make use. Or, they could even pass them over to your friends and neighbors who were not Japanese. And things like that were done I know. The other thing is, a lot of people kept, stored a lot of things that they could not take with them. Store them in places like the Japanese Language School or the Buddhist temple, or I think the Christian church too. I think unfortunately, and this happened all over, practically all those places were vandalized. And only people who were able to leave their precious things with white families, the good who really looked after them for them all those years, several years before the war ended and everything. They were the only ones that managed to get them back. My mother for instance made sure that she brought all the photographs that she already had, that the family had, with us. Things like this. Some other people, a lot of the other people said they don't have pictures of the old days because we stored them away and they are gone. So that was the other thing. And this was as I mentioned the government custodian of enemy alien property as it was called. ok. They confiscated and then got rid of not only the vehicles and so forth and radios and stuff like this, but the property. Land and businesses and so forth and just sold them off. Harry Unikra who is my age and who was the fisherman in Steveston which is a fishing Village in the suburbs of Vancouver. And he had just bought this past year before Pearl Harbor happened his own fishing boat. 5000 bucks in those days, which would be at least fifty thousand now at least. I think he was given eventually something like 20 bucks or something for that. And they said all the trouble getting rid of it plus all the taxes. So therefore this is what we get. So that was one of the things that made him one of the angriest people I have ever seen laughs, as you can imagine. It was that kind of attitude and taking advantage. And you know the farmlands, a lot of the farmers who were non-Japanese, who were competing with the Japanese. So not only grabbed not only incredibly cheap prices, the land adjacent to them or, in many cases, sometimes, this is the thing that they hated the Japanese farmers for is, the needed farmers and had gone into land that was not particularly fertile and worked it up so what they grew there was better crops than the white neighbors. So they resentment tem plus the we need that God damn land, it's ours anyway. The buggers shouldn't be here. That type of thing. Luckily in our own family's case, we hardly owned anything like that except for things like the truck.

Our house we rented too you see. So we didn't get so much of that important properties snatched away from us, like so many other people unfortunately did. But it was just like everyone when the war was finally over, we all had to start from scratch. And luckily our parents were in shape enough to be able to rough it and handle it. And also when the war came in this whole business when the Government tried to -- BC did not want you to come back, and the government trying to send everyone back to Japan, didn't matter if you were born here or what. My parents were among the forward-thinking parents who had never dreamt of going back to Japan any more, way before the war started. So they were quite willing to work and used to their kids growing up to work, and get their kids to go to school properly so that we could do a proper start. And that's why we've done all right. And we were taught how to behave and manage ok. So that overall, there are really some people that are damaged permanently, psychologically as well as otherwise buy that hold more time this treatment, injustice. Most of us sort of survived it and didn't use this as an excuse for our situation, but said the hell with it and ignored it and started over again. We'll show these buggers, you know? It was interesting because for instance, my parents generation really came from Japan from what was here or in Britain, the Victorian era. Very puritanical you know like -- and I say in Victorian England for instance you are supposed to cover the table legs because you're not supposed to show legs, and stuff like this. It went that far. So that when we were growing up, and this is before I studied Arthur Murray in the road camp, in high school they had dancing and so forth and some of the older Canadian-born were really into that kind of thing. Most of our parents thought that that was terrible. It wasn't that they just didn't want the girls to learn how to dance, they didn't think the boys should either because they were very simple. Japanese do not even believe in physical touching anyhow. You know bowing instead of shaking hands. It was only when they were really trying to get to be more comfortable with Western people and dealings, business dealings and so forth, that Japanese fishermen learned how to shake hands. Well we had to bow back too. Suddenly after the war and we started coming into Toronto and so forth, suddenly to our shock, our meaning the Canadian-born, shock, many of the Immigrant generation, especially the men of my parents age and so forth, started taking up ballroom dancing. I thought, “Holy cow, what's going on?” laughter. And it was that kind of thing -- and they started going into 5 Pin bowling. So we had to be 70 and 75 year old men getting into activities like that that only, back on the west coast before the war, only the older Canadian born were into. But they picked it up you see? Not to throw away and push away that Japanese cultural thing, they still wanted to and they did hold on to that. But they wanted to pick that up too you see? They had to -- something. And it was interesting. So I think that contributed to they're being able to adjust to a new life in a new world you know? It was fascinating and we thought “My God”, imagine. Because our judo teacher, when we had young people socials at our Anglican Church, and it used to be held in the basement of the church you see.

And there we are and someone would be a DJ and playing the vinyl records you know. Benny Goodman and Glenn Miller and stuff like that. And suddenly somebody that was by the window would say “Watch out guys, watch out!” “What?” he says. “The judo teacher is here! He is going to see some of you guys dancing! So watch out, wait until he goes past!” And they started to try to put the blinds together but they couldn't they were just curtains. And there is by the way the Judo teacher who always carried a stick or a cane. And he used to be, before he got into Judo which she apparently did only have to he came to Canada and immigrated here, but in Japan he was a Kendo guy, you know the sword? So that's why he's used to this thing. So we used to say that that's not actually just a stick, there's a blade inside. laughter. So there he was and what the heck was he doing walking by the bloody church, you know? He's over there or over here and there's no Judo down there going on today. And things like that that happened. “He's gone now! It's ok! But one of you guys keep watch”. So is that kind of thing which at the time was very serious stuff, and later on it was as giddy as hell.

Do you want to maybe stop now?

Sure, if you are ok.

Yeah, it is entirely up to you.

You got enough? Fran's wife Betty says that everyone has to eat from the next room.

I think there is something waiting over there.

Ok, fair enough.

Thank you.

No, as long as you got what you need Alex, that's the important thing.

Ok, thank you.