Tatsuro "Buck" Suzuki, interviewed by Howard B. Smith, 1977

Tatsuro "Buck" Suzuki, interviewed by Howard B. Smith, 1977

Abstract
In this interview Tatsuro “Buck” Suzuki speaks with Howard B. Smith about the internment and dispossession of Japanese Canadians. Suzuki explains how situations were different in every camp, that there were different types of camps, and the conditions on sugar beet farms on the prairies. He describes how Japanese Canadians were forced from their homes and made to leave many of their personal items behind. He reflects on the values of the time and how they contributed to Japanese Canadian internment, and how societal values have changed. Suzuki emphasizes the ad hoc nature of the bureaucracy of the internment, and how different areas in the interior of British Columbia responded in various ways to the arrival of Japanese Canadians. He also describes the lack of power Japanese Canadians held as they were subject to living in guarded and fenced towns and lived under a threat of being sent to a prisoner-of-war camp. Suzuki tells about the different ways in which Japanese Canadians were dispossessed: he refers to the looting of homes, the forced sale of property, and the negligent management of fishing vessels that led to their forced sale. He mentions that Japanese Canadians were reimbursed for the sale of their property, but they were also forced to cover any expenses accrued in the sales. In particular, he notes that his father’s property was sold for only $600.
This oral history is from the British Columbia Archives and focuses on the experience of issei (first generation Japanese-Canadians). It was donated there 4 October, 1985. Howard Smith recorded oral histories for the history of labour in British Columbia from August 1975 to June 1979, titled Labour Movement Collection. Reference: pr-1876, t3944:0046
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Howard Smith (HS)
Buck, when did—in talking about the internment of the Japanese in BC during the war, I have a real sketchy history of it, so you know. As a Japanese person living in BC, when did you first get an inkling that that might be going on?
Tatsuro Suzuki (TS)
Well, it wasn't a question of might. I think we had a fairly good idea that some of us, some persons of Japanese origin, were going to be detained or interned. And we knew this as far back as around 1938.
HS
What was the climate like, the feeling here in BC on the coast? You know, living as a Japanese person?
TS
As far as I was concerned, as long as I could understand any language—Japanese or English—words such as “deportation,” “restrictions,” you know things like that pertaining to the industry in which your father pertained to, was bandied about and I knew they were not nice words, that there was something very, very bad about it. And that, sort of an atmosphere, has hung with me, well just about as early as I can remember. And we lived under this very dark cloud, all our lives, and I'm afraid that it must have coloured our habits, our way of life, everything, because of this uncertain situation that hung over us. We weren't even second-class citizens you know, we were way down the list, subject to manipulation by others who were right there alongside of you.
HS
Yet most of the Japanese Canadians who were living on the coast at that time were really actively involved in the economy. I know you were a fisherman yourself.
TS
Yes. We were. We were very actively involved in the economy. We contributed to a very great extent, especially in the northern community, the outer west coast communities, that is on the outer west coast of Vancouver Island and around Steveston in Vancouver.
HS
Now, what about the actual events that lead to the internment. When did you first hear that it was definite, that the coastal Japanese were going to be interned?
TS
This we knew just prior to the war. Not everyone. As a matter of fact, no one knew, not even the authorities knew how many were to be interned. Which categories—if you want to categorize citizens—which categories were to be interned, which age groups were to be interned. No one knew. It was one of these situations that I think the authorities played by ear. But the general atmosphere against the persons of Japanese origin was such that we knew that should there be conflict in the Pacific area between Japan and the United States and/or Canada or Britain, that we were going to have a very, very rough go of it. As a matter of fact, it was rough enough without that war, you know? When Japan was rattling their sabers in Manchuria, and all along the coast there bragging about our navy being superior to the Americans and the British combined and all that bunkum, it made our position very bad, and especially bad as fisherman. We were under suspicion as being spies for the Japanese navy. We were supposed to have had sounding apparatus, we were supposed to have lead sinkers down there finding out the depth of the water, and that we had the hidden fuel depots and food depots along the coasts to refuel Japanese submarines. Oh, the wildest things you could think of were being, you know, brought up by people who you know were under the fear of or who believed in to a very great degree that the saber rattling that the Japanese were doing.
HS
Did this come up within the fishing fleet itself?
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TS
No. I think that you know—actually it was an economic question in the first place, that is the competition between various segments in the fishing industry as far back as the late 1890s and early 1900s. Became a race for the limited volume of salmon down here. And in those days, seemed as if all the Swedish people fished in one block, Scotsman in another, Japanese in another, you know. And it became sort of a competitive thing. And the less competition, the better. So this resulted in a situation where they were trying to eliminate each other as competitors. And I think the politicians jumped into this fray.
HS
So what were the actual events in terms of—you were interned yourself, is that right?
TS
Not exactly interned, I was—well I was on the security staff you know, helping the people that were being moved out of here. And later I went into these interior camps there where they were being held and helped a little while to see that they were settled. Seen a lot of cases, the men were separated from them. And the able-bodied young people were separated. And you know, no one could move around without a permit, special RCMP permit, and that sort of stuff you see.
HS
When—what year then were people actually moved from the coast?
TS
They were moved in 1942. In the spring of 1942. They started by moving persons of Japanese nationals, that is able-bodied persons, 18 years and over, who happened not to have naturalization papers. They were the first ones to be moved. And I think they were moved to CN line, along the Rockies there.
HS
How were they treated?
TS
Well, nothing was ready for them. I mean they had to go and hack everything out themselves, out of the bush. I guess their food and everything wasn't too bad, you know, it was army ration, I understand. But the whole idea to leave their families behind with nobody to look after them, nobody to see to that they were moved into the interior camp or in a safe area. You know, the men folks were just forcibly taken and put here in these isolated camps.
HS
What happened then to the families back on the coast?
TS
Well, there was a group of young fellas that later on were helping them, you know, pack up. The neighbours would help them pack or those that could move around would help them pack up what few belongings that they were allowed to take. I think there was a very limited poundies that they could take with them, you see, as their personal belongings when they were moved out of here. Very little. Just about all you could carry and no more. And there wasn't much of a job to packing, I think. You just left everything here. It wasn't just one family, it was everyone. So they just abandoned their houses the way it was. And as a result, these women that had children, what the children couldn't carry or what they couldn't carry besides their children, they just left behind.
HS
Now how long were the people in the camps?
TS
Varying lengths of time. Because their menfolks would, you know, the laws became less severe as time went on. And the menfolks were allowed to seek work elsewhere in Canada, and if they found work, they were able to go and pick their families up and take them with them. Say even as far east as Quebec. And, um, oh, some of them stayed right 'til the end. End of the evacuation in the end of 1946. Others stayed until after the War Measures Act became less effective the end of 1948. There's an odd one still in there, in these camps, like the old timers, they bought these little shacks or acquired them somehow, fixed them up a little better, and now they're living out their last days in that same spot.
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HS
Well what happened to their houses here on the coast?
TS
It was abandoned from the time, you know, they were left. It was vandalized. Just about anything of any value was taken out. Ripped out. Books and everything. I can remember people telling us that they went back after a while with a permit to go and see if they could, you know, pick up some—well in some cases they were given a permit to go and look for some of their personal things, very personal things. And they found out there was nothing there. As a matter of fact, not only was nothing there, some had even taken the pictures down from the wall and taken the frames and thrown the pictures all around. Everything was just the way houses are now, if you leave them abandoned, just all, just torn to pieces, that's all there was.
HS
And what if, say, a family owned a farm? Now there were a fair amount of Japanese farmers in this area, in the Delta, and what would happen to their farm?
TS
Well most of the farms were, you know, berry farms. Or vegetable farms. I think as far as chickens and things are concerned, well, sacrifice sales, just absolutely giveaway sales to all these various food companies and anybody that would buy them. And that way, they disposed of that. And then the farms, seems to me, a group of people just seemed to drift in from the Prairies, and they rented the places from the Custodian of Enemy Alien Property, as they were called, these people who were looking after the houses as they were abandoned. And these people from the Prairies, in a lot of cases, lived in them.
HS
Now did the government actually take over ownership of the property?
TS
Not right away. But slowly but surely, the pressure was applied. So that—they just had to go sign over, that's all there was to it.
HS
And what kind of compensation did they get?
TS
Well they Laughs. considered it proper compensation, but to our way of thinking, far from it. You know, it was far from being adequate.
HS
Can you give me any examples? Can you think of any example of you know how much somebody would be compensated, if say they lost their berry farm?
TS
Well I don't know about a berry farm, but there's a piece of land up there—Well take my dad for instance. He owned a piece of property that was, oh roughly 14 acres I guess, in a strip alongside the road. It was fairly well settled. Didn't have a house on it that was worth anything, but you know, pretty well settled and everything. And I think they give him less than 600 dollars. Minus expenses for selling it.
HS
You mean they took out expenses from that?
TS
Yeah. Yeah.
HS
And how about the people who had fishing boats?
TS
Well it's the same thing with the fishing boats. They had them tied here for quite a while. And it was, it was neglect more than anything. You know the people looking after them didn't have the experience. They were people who wore sailors uniform from say, Northern Manitoba or Northern Saskatchewan, and they were expected to look after a whole bunch of fishing boats. Highly inflammable, gasoline powered fishing boats. Well these kids didn't know any better, there was fires all the time. They didn't know how to tie them up, they didn't know anything about tides. This one young warrant officer in the navy, a regular, said to me, “You know these guys think water is only for drinking.” He says, “They don't know the first thing about it.” And they were the ones that were trying to look after the boats the best they could, but they made a mess of it. Sunk them, burnt them. You know, busted them well up. Didn't know what fenders were for, they cut them all off because they'd get stuck when you were moving them. That sort of thing, you know. Then they would go and remove everything removable and flug the darn thing. Well I guess that's standard for any navy or army personal during the war, but this is what happened. The boats were stripped.
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HS
And okay, what—say there was a Japanese fisherman on the coast, moved to an internment camp in the interior, his family was moved, too. Say his boat burnt or sank because of neglect. Did he get any compensation for that?
TS
Yes. I don't know what they got, but it was a question of negotiation, I think. He would put in a claim. You know. And they would look in his past records. I don't know how they were paid. But there was a commission, you know, to look into these things. And I know they weren't satisfied for what they were paid, but still they got some pay.
HS
Now, a lot of them were resettled in the interior. It seemed they didn't have enough resources to come back to the coast, after the war. And you see, there's you know, a fair amount of Japanese settled in places like Greenwood and other places in the interior, that are fairly close to some of the internment camps. Did, say, the fishermen turn to farming? Did they have to turn to another occupation?
TS
Oh yes, they'd turn into anything that you know, they could. Some of them came out here again and they went back into fishing. But it wasn't a very, you know—the hostile atmosphere remained 'til around 1952? '53? Long after they came here, you know. The hostility towards Japanese people just didn't die out with the war by any means. So took them quite a while. And this made it so that the people were reluctant to move about, if they had any security whatsoever in a job, say in a mill, a saw mill, mines, or if they had a little store or something like that, they stuck with it. And then first thing you knew that became a way of life for some of them, you know. The children grew up in that community, and they took root there.
HS
Are the Japanese you know who went through that experience resentful?
TS
They had no time to be resentful. You know. It was—it didn't give you any time to sit down and think. Events happened so rapidly, not only that, you're dealing with human beings, you're not even dealing with the government, you're dealing with a series of ad hoc committees set up, committees that have their pulse on the normal Canadian public—society at large—to see which way they're going to go. See what their attitude is. Then you set up another ad hoc policy. So, who were we? We were just the pawns, there. We were just to be moved around. We realized that, it wasn't up to us to demand like we do now. We have time to sit down and talk to people on the radio, talk to people on television, talk to other interviewers—but in those days it was a question of, “Where do we go from here? What's going to happen to me? What are these guys going to do?” And it wasn't a question of the government doing it. It was the general public themselves that were responsible for the situation.
HS
Was there much fear, among the Japanese people?
TS
Yes, there was a great deal of fear. You never knew what the others were going to do to you.
HS
When people were moved into the camps in the interior, how did the population around those camps treat the internees?
TS
Well they were, you know, overwhelmed by the numbers that came there. So sure they had their own opinions. In some places, like Kaslo for instance there now, there was a great deal of, or quite a strong resentment against people of Japanese origins going in there. But nevertheless, there was a government order, you know, and a wartime emergency, you see. So no one did anything. But I know for a fact there were groups in there that were very resentful that the Japs were ever allowed into their community. And these were the people that were related to other relatives elsewhere, close to the coast, who were prominent politicians or people who thought they understood the Japanese for what they were. That they were not to be tolerated, sort of idea, you know. They just carried that feeling with them even though they never met a Japanese before. Then there was other ordinary, honest, Canadian citizens that believed in giving them every chance because, you know, after all they hadn't done anything wrong in the eyes of, in front of them. Let's give them a break, sort of idea. Let's go and see how they act first. Then they found out that the guys were no different than anybody else, so slowly but surely—well as a matter of fact quite rapidly, in places like Greenwood, New Denver, you know, they were taken right into the community.
00:21:20.000
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HS
So now the Japanese section of the population of those interior towns, who came there because of the internment, were brought there by the government, they're fairly well integrated?
TS
Well there's no one there, now. But you know, while they were there, it wasn't a question of integration, just a matter of forming a society amongst themselves that were tolerant of each other. Let's put it that way. They didn't know how long they were going to be kept there, they didn't even know if they were going to be allowed to stay there, they didn't know what their future was. I mean, there was just absolutely no use saying “I want.” Because you were not going to get because you wanted, you were going to bloody well, you know, do as you're told, moved as you're told, and what are you going to do about it?
HS
What were the camps like themselves? Can you give me a physical description?
TS
Well, in places like Kaslo and New Denver, it was usually partitioning huge, barn-like abandoned hotels. Abandoned warehouses. Abandoned houses, you know they were fairly large houses. So you'd go and partition them all off and put oh, numerous families in each house, numerous families in each store. In the beginning, all they had were sheets to go and hang in between there, you know as curtains to separate one family from the other for privacy. And they had a communal kitchen system. Same thing with toilet facilities. You know it was far from adequate, but it had to do and we had a carpenter force there that were working amongst the—they were, you know, other Japanese that had some experience in carpentry. They set to work to say build extra toilet facilities, extra kitchen facilities. And they would build benches, tables, you know everything was all makeshift but they did it in an awful hurry.
HS
Was it like, a prison? Was it fenced in? Were there guards around?
TS
Yes. The whole area was fenced in. The whole city was all fenced in. And there's RCMP guards all over. No one could move in and out without a pass, and passes were hard to get. You had to say you have a relative in the next internment camp or you know, relocation camp where you had a sick relative you wanted to visit. Or something like that. Well then you'd be given a permit. But it was the most embarrassing thing to go down to the bus. You had to have a permit to get on the bus in the first place. So you got the bus and the permit, and you'd go on the regular bus, alright? And at a checkpoint, they would stop you in front of everybody else, in front of all the other passengers, and then they would go and ask you questions. Check your permit. You know, check you physically if they thought you were carrying something. You know that sort of thing. All under RCMP. Oh yes.
HS
How many camps were there, in all?
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TS
There were Pauses. . . . I think there were half a dozen camps, but some of them were larger than others and they were split again, split up into three or four groups of camps within the given area. Like take for instance, Slocan for instance. They called it Slocan but I think there were about four or five different communities in there. And then there was another community, Tashme, where they hacked it out of clean, you know, virgin forest almost. And then there were other places like Kaslo where they utilized most of the existing houses because there was, you know, all kinds of abandoned houses. The same was almost true of places like New Denver, where they made use of all the old houses and then they found out it wasn't enough, so they started to build on the outskirts. So then Sandon was the same way. They used up all the old buildings they could, then they had a few on the side.
HS
How many people in all? Of Japanese origin were interned during the war?
TS
Just about every one. Just about every one. Roughly 24,000.
HS
Now the internment seemed to be all predicated on the possibility on Japanese spying for the Japanese nation or engaging in sabotage. Was there any kind of incident like that, during the war?
TS
Not that I know of. Not that I know of. I don't think there was any turned up, neither.
HS
In all this, you're interned by order of the government. But our governments work on system of opposition, have different parties in parliament. Did the Japanese have any support in the government? Was there anybody speaking on their behalf?
TS
Oh yes. We had Harold Winch. But a gentleman that was really outspoken was Angus MacInnis. There were others, in this CCF group. Civilians, who were CCFers. In most cases, were very, very outspoken, sympathetic. We had a lot of help from the United Church. Perhaps it was about the only church that went all out. Yes the others would help once you moved out of here or something like that, they wouldn't say hands off. Well I could maybe name two other major denominations, but the United Church was very open in its indignation of what was happening. And in their support for us they were very, very staunch. But politically? The only party that went really all out and that man was Angus MacInnis.
HS
Now you said that a lot of fisherman found that their boats were burned or that they sunk or that they were stripped. And you mentioned before that there was competition within the fishing industry by different national groups. Did it—was the fishing industry more consolidated than into the Anglo-Saxon fisherman?
TS
In what way?
HS
Well for example, all the Japanese were moved off coast. A lot of them presumably lost their boats or didn't get adequate compensation to buy a boat of comparable value. So what happened? What was the end result in terms of the fishermen when the war was over? Did it change the composition of the fishing fleet?
TS
For a while. But, since then, those who fished previously have more or less come back fishing, again. So they've filled that vacuum all over again. The only difference is that their children are not anxious to go fishing anymore like they themselves were. Their children seem to just stay in the industry until such time as they can complete their education and then they take off somewhere else or go into some other line.
HS
Does that have anything to do with the internment situation?
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TS
No, I don't think so. I think it has a lot to do with freedom of choice. I mean, they're free to choose whatever line of occupation that they wish to, you know, indulge in. And we always did say that if we could only serve as other citizens, you know, it would be wonderful. And they are finding it, that their services are acceptable, you know, to the general Canadian public. As a matter of fact, I think in proportion to the size of the population, I think Japanese Canadians are doing well. Without going back into the fishing industry or farming.
HS
This may seem like a cliche question, but what kind of lessons can Canadians learn about this whole experience? Not just the Japanese people, which undoubtedly have learned many lessons from it, both good and bad, both you know setbacks and both learning experiences. But what about Canadians who maybe didn't have too much to do with the whole internment question but it's part of their history?
TS
The Japanese have a saying about you mustn't put your mannerisms on the shelf and then say well that's mine and that's separate from everybody else's. That you would not be capable or will not ever take part in anything that's wrong or anti-social. I think that this whole thing has taught the average Canadian that perhaps he's not as God-like as he thinks he is. That he's quite capable of doing the same thing as say some people in some far off countries, where they take violent action against their fellow men. I don't think we're too far away from it. Sure, we haven't quite the opportunity. But we just aren't quite as far advanced as we think we are in that manner. That we're capable of being absolutely human. And it's a very, it's something that we can stop and take stock about. So many times we go and put our own mannerism on the top shelf and then say, “Oh gee well look at what is happening in such and such a country,” you know. In Lebanon, for instance there now. In Ireland, and everything else. “It could never happen here.” “Oh yeah? It can't happen?” I don't know, sometimes, I think the veneer of civilization is very, very then. There's a level that's going to bust through here in Canada as well as anywhere else, unless we watch it and guard it. Guard it very, very carefully. And that goes for all. By talking in this manner, I don't mean those who felt the lash in the war years are all innocent and all good. Not by any means. I often wonder how many times they aggravated the average Canadian public unknowingly. They had nothing to say. If the shoe had been on the other foot, would they have done any other different?
HS
In terms of compensation, was it pushed after people were, you know, let go from the internment camps. Did people ask for more compensation? Either for the very fact that they were put in the camps, and had to spend years there? Or for property lost?
TS
Yes, for property lost. There was a group that set themselves up in Toronto. And there was a group of Canadians of, well, of all origin. People of good faith. And they got together to see if those who had lost property gained rightful compensation.
HS
And were they successful?
00:35:02.000
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TS
I think they were partially successful. At least in some cases, some of the people had their cases reviewed, I understand. I was told there were some people who had their cases reviewed, and that, you know, for the consideration that was being given. I know in the case of fishing equipment here, we had a special commission to look into the question of the sale of Japanese boats. The sale of nets and other equipment, you know? And it was under a very able justice, Justice Sidney Smith of the Admiralty Court. And as a result, I think there was some small compensation, extra compensation—in some cases. In some extreme cases.
HS
Now, Canadian soldiers who were interned in concentration camps overseas, and are of a pensionable age, get an increased pension because of that experience. Has there ever been an offer to the Japanese community, or has the Japanese community ever asked for that?
TS
No. No. Laughs. They never have and, I don't know. I don't think that sort of request will be forthcoming in any organized manner here in Canada.
HS
Why is that? Because certainly the Japanese people who were interned lost work time, they couldn't work actively during that period, and were disrupted from their employment. I'm curious why the government doesn't offer, but obviously they're the wrong person to ask about that, but why wouldn't that request come from the Japanese community?
TS
Well because they lived through the hard times, shall I say. Or lived through an era. When I told you we lived under this cloud of, this dark cloud. It's so much better than it was then, for one thing. And another thing—we just didn't expect it. We just don't expect it. And not only that, it would have been no use expecting it in those days. Or up 'til now. And I think even now, unless it's people of your generation, the younger generation, that will bring that up, you know, voluntarily. No one of my generation will. Because whether they like it or not, they must admit that it's the era of my age, at that time and that whole incident happened, where were they when I was being pushed around? They were right there just the same as everybody else. Did they raise their voice? Answer is no. But right now when you get into a social group or something, they'd throw their hands up in the air. “What a horrible thing we did, what a horrible thing that happened to the Japanese.” And I say to them, “Well, what are you guys talking about? Where were you when this whole thing happened? You were right here, you were caught up in the same madness, the same war hysteria.” Talk about compensation for the Japanese? Heck man, they wanted to go and grab the Japs by the scruff of the neck and ship them overseas or ship them back to where they come from, they thought that was Japan, just as fast as they could get a hold of them. That was their general attitude, and that attitude remained. As a matter of fact, amongst a lot of the old timers, a lot of that sentiment still remains. It's the younger group, the thinking group, the better educated group, that brought about almost this abrupt change. People in their, in their 30s? No. Late 20s and 30s. They began to ask questions first. And they were the ones that said, “What have we done?” You know? But we still have my generation living. And I say my generation, not only my generation of Japanese Canadians but my generation of Canadians still living, who took part in the whole thing. They have no idea of compensation. For us. No way.
HS
They'd rather just let it lie.
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TS
They’d just rather let it lie. Not only that, I think they just want to go and justify their standing in a lot of cases. But not their children. This is where they're at odds with their children, even, on this whole question. So I would like to think that we're in a transition period. Now having said that, we too are in that transition period. Our children are growing up. Same age as you. Think exactly the same as you. They're saying, “What's the matter with you, dad?” How long did you, how come you took all this stuff? You know? “Who do you think you are?” And then they start going into the whole question of racial identity and everything else. It's an offshoot of all that's happened Laughs. and now brought forward. Some very radical young people amongst Japanese people, too, I think. There won't be many but there'll be quite a few of them. They're already calling their parents bananas. You know, yellow on the outside and white on the inside and all that sort of stuff. But that's a whole new generation coming up. A generation that asks me the same question that you're asking. Say, “How come? Why don't you? Why didn't you?” When you live under this paw of black, all your life is doggone hard to go and fight anymore. You're pretty tired. I think I've fought just about as hard as any of them. Ever since I was a kid. And, going right into a hostile group, speaking to them, I had no previous speaking experience whatsoever, but just pleading with them on behalf of my people. It's hard to explain. But we're tired now.
HS
And you said you weren't really interned and that's because you were on a committee as a representative of Japanese people?
TS
Eh, not really. It was, we weren't interned because I just chose to remain independent. I wasn't going to get pushed around. I had the choice of being you know interned, or when I say interned, held in these detention camps, or else going out on my own. I chose to go out my own.
HS
But you had to move away from the coast?
TS
Yes, that's definite.
HS
Were most Japanese given that choice? Of going to a camp and being provided for by the government, or going out on their own?
TS
Yes, they were all given that choice. Every one of them. They had no other choice.
HS
But were they given any resources to go out on their own with?
TS
Laughs. They were told not to carry too much. So I guess that meant that they weren't going to cost too much. And they were given, not a ticket but a pass to go and get on a train. These day coaches to get out of here. And, ah—
HS
That's it?
TS
That's it.
HS
So they weren't actually forced into the camps by an order. They were rather just told they could go anywhere they wanted, but that there was food at the camps?
TS
That too was different from time to time. All this, like I said, just everything was ad hoc. It all depended on which way the wind blew in Ottawa. Which way the public sentiment was here. There were other things that changed the direction in which these people to go. The demand from the sugar beet fields, the demand from the farms. And just how soon some of the camps were ready in the interior had a lot to do with who could go where.
HS
Now how can the demand in the sugar beet fields have anything to do with this?
TS
Well there was a shortage of labour. In the sugar beet fields. And they needed labour very, very badly. So they had two choices: prisoners-of-war, that is captured German prisoners-of-war; or else they would go up to the Japanese and tell them, “Look we'll pay you so much an hour,” you know. The same as the prisoners-of-war. Almost. Two bits an hour or so for that back-breaking job in the sugar beet fields.
HS
And this was still away from the coast, though?
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TS
In Alberta. In Alberta was the closest sugar beet field.
HS
And what kind of—
TS
Some of them were in Manitoba.
HS
What kind of wages are we talking about for that?
TS
Oh, two bits an hour. Twenty cents an hour. Or it would come to about that. If the whole family would pitch in, maybe it would go about thirty-five cents an hour. Because you know, you would have to figure it out on the acreage basis. You would be paid to go and look after an acre of sugar beet.
HS
Did they actually have German prisoners-of-war that were brought over to work in Alberta?
TS
Oh yes. Alberta and southern Ontario. And Winnipeg. Or when I say Winnipeg, Manitoba. So the boys were working in the same place as the prisoners of the war, more or less in the same area. Not in the same camp, but you know, in the very same area doing the same kind of work.
HS
So it sounds like the Japanese were told that they weren't really prisoners-of-war, they just had to move from the coast. But when it came right down to it, they were side by side with those prisoners.
TS
Oh yes. And the whole thing assisted. The prisoners-of-war had to go back to their camps, under guard, under notice of a guard. Whereas our boys would go out and be under the watchful eye of the RCMP. If there's any difference. One was looked after by volunteer ex-reserve members, and the other was by the regular RCMP. So, of the two, I think our boys were more closely looked at.
HS
Incredible. Laughs. That's a period I don't think we should forget.
TS
No, but some of them did object to you know some of the Japanese Canadians did object, and they were interned in the same camp as the prisoners-of-war. Under barbed wire. With armed guards around them.
HS
You mean some of them objected to conditions they were having to work under?
TS
No, ah, objected to being forcibly removed from the coast. And having to leave their families behind. You see, they protested. And when you protested, in those days you ended up in an internment camp.
HS
And those were more severe camps. They had barbed wire and everything.
TS
They were more severe than what we call the relocation camp. There's a difference between relocation camp and prisoner-of-war camp. So, I think when they went to prisoner-of-war camp, they got their little spots on the middle of their back of their clothing and everything else. To make better targets. There've been instances where they've protested in the camps and then the guards fired right through the roof. I know a friend of mine that had bullets go right through his pillow. The man is dead now, he went back to Japan. He took no part in it. But some of the others did. In rioting. In there. They made an excessive amount of noise I guess and the guards I guess just opened fire, right clean from the guard tower through the roof. And the bullet just went clean through his pillow, and missed him. Now. These are the things that people will never even talk about. And they would deny it if you told them that. It wasn't even a question of taking aim at anybody, neither. It's very dangerous.
HS
Did this happen in a camp in BC?
TS
No. In Petawawa.
HS
Were there British Columbia Japanese that were involved in that?
TS
All of them—
HS
Like were they shipped all over the country?
TS
Well, all were British Columbia Japanese. They were moved from here right back to there. First they were moved to an internment camp in Alberta and from there they were moved to the one in Petawawa, in Angler. In Manitoba.
HS
So this is what happened to the Japanese who objected to being interned and separated from their families.
TS
That's right. And they were kept there until, oh, lord knows. '46? '47? So, that was the uglier part.
HS
And was that a very great number of the Japanese people who were interned?
TS
Oh yes. I think there was roughly 700. For various reasons, you know, they were picked up.
HS
And I'm curious, if you were in a relocation camp, was it ever used as a threat? That you might be changed into a—like if you asked for better conditions or something, was it ever used as a threat that you know you might have to go to an actual prisoner-of-war camp?
TS
I don't know under what circumstances that threat was used. But I know it was used quite often that if you didn't move as you were told. We knew that. But there's nothing much else that they could have done in those relocation camps. Really, their protest would have gone to the supervisor there. That's just about as high as you could have gone and you wouldn't have gotten anywhere, anyway. So, there were threats, but I couldn't think of any specific.
HS
Okay. Okay well thanks, I'll think we'll have to go into it more, you know as we go along. But this will give something to start with.
TS
Yeah, okay.
HS
Unless you can think of something that you wanted to say that we didn't talk about?
TS
I'm not much good at the thinking of—
HS
Yeah, yeah.
TS
You know if you prompt me, it's one thing.
HS
I can't think of anything offhand.
TS
Sure.
HS
Actually, uhm—
00:51:34.000

Metadata

Title

Tatsuro "Buck" Suzuki, interviewed by Howard B. Smith, 1977

Abstract

1930s-40s, 1970s
In this interview Tatsuro Buck Suzuki speaks with Howard B. Smith about the internment and dispossession of Japanese Canadians. Suzuki explains how situations were different in every camp, that there were different types of camps, and the conditions on sugar beet farms on the prairies. He describes how Japanese Canadians were forced from their homes and made to leave many of their personal items behind. He reflects on the values of the time and how they contributed to Japanese Canadian internment, and how societal values have changed. Suzuki emphasizes the ad hoc nature of the bureaucracy of the internment, and how different areas in the interior of British Columbia responded in various ways to the arrival of Japanese Canadians. He also describes the lack of power Japanese Canadians held as they were subject to living in guarded and fenced towns and lived under a threat of being sent to a prisoner-of-war camp. Suzuki tells about the different ways in which Japanese Canadians were dispossessed: he refers to the looting of homes, the forced sale of property, and the negligent management of fishing vessels that led to their forced sale. He mentions that Japanese Canadians were reimbursed for the sale of their property, but they were also forced to cover any expenses accrued in the sales. In particular, he notes that his father’s property was sold for only $600.
This oral history is from the British Columbia Archives and focuses on the experience of issei (first generation Japanese-Canadians). It was donated there 4 October, 1985. Howard Smith recorded oral histories for the history of labour in British Columbia from August 1975 to June 1979, titled Labour Movement Collection. Reference: pr-1876, t3944:0046

Credits

Interviewer: Howard B. Smith
Transcriber: Jennifer Landrey
Audio Checker: Jennifer Landrey
Publication Information: See Terms of Use for publication and licensing information.
Setting: British Columbia
Keywords: fishing; War Measures Act;
Keywords: looting; policy; uprooting; labour; reaction; racism; difference; fishing; homes; church; religion; incarceration; prisoner-of-war; internment

Terminology

Readers of these historical materials will encounter derogatory references to Japanese Canadians and euphemisms used to obscure the intent and impacts of the internment and dispossession. While these are important realities of the history, the Landscapes of Injustice Research Collective urges users to carefully consider their own terminological choices in writing and speaking about this topic today as we confront past injustice. See our statement on terminology, and related sources here.