Sam Baba, interviewed by Alexander Pekic, 27 October 2015

Warning

The LOI Research Team has flagged this record for containing sensitive information. This record contains the following sensitivities:

  • Could cause undue or disproportionate dishonour / embarrassment to self or family.

Sam Baba, interviewed by Alexander Pekic, 27 October 2015

Abstract
Sam speaks about his life in Toronto and his career as a furrier as well as the interaction between Jewish Canadians and himself and the Japanese Canadian community. He also speaks about his leaving his BC home and being sent to internment site and his family's eventual settling in Toronto.
This oral history is from an interview conducted by the Oral History cluster of the Landscapes of Injustice project.
00:00:00.000
Alexander Pekic (AP)
We'll just start by saying that we are interviewing Mr. Sam Baba, today at the Japanese Canadian Cultural Centre on October 27th, 2015. Thank you very much for meeting with us and doing this interview.
Sam Baba (SB)
You are more than welcome.
AP
Great. So, Mr. Baba, please tell me about your life.
SB
Well, as you know, back in 1945 when the Pacific War ended, all of the Japanese were relocated outside of the BC coast line into a lot of places, at that time, called ghost towns, which is a mining town that depleted. To accommodate the Japanese, they relocated to these so-called ghost towns. So I was 15 at the time, when the war broke out, and the whole family⁠— of course, men over 18 years old— were all gathered and shipped into what they probably called prisoner camps. So mothers and children were all left without their fathers and big brothers. So we were shipped to a place called Kaslo, and that's where we started our life. Yes our dad and all the fellows that were over 18 we're never reunited with their families again for quite a few years. So we lived in the ghost town for about 4 or 5 years, I guess at the time. When the war ended the government gave us a choice of— we couldn't go back to British Columbia, we had to go east of the Rockies. Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, or Quebec. So we were in a place called Tashme, and my brother and I⁠— what happened was⁠— my brother and I signed for Japan, my dad made us sign for Japan. The two oldest sons. He had 7 sons Laughs. and 4 daughters. So the oldest one, he made us sign to go to Japan. So we didn't want to go back to Japan. However when we signed for Japan, we got shipped out to a place called Tashme, BC, where all the people that signed for Japan got sent there. So after the war they will be shipped to Japan. So after the end of the war, the government gave us a chance to cancel our trip to Japan. So I wrote my dad and said, “ What should we do?”. He said, “You cancel it”, and at the time I was going around with my wife. So we got married. My dad took the whole family to Thunder Bay, Fort Williams. And they went to a bush camp to work in a logging factory.So my wife and I got married in Tashme, and Toronto and surrounding areas were all closed to Japanese, you couldn't come in here, you know? Unless you had a sponsor. Fortunately for us my wife had a very good friend living in Toronto already, so she sponsored us, and rented a Jewish home on Bathurst Street⁠— one bedroom. So we came to Toronto back in 1946 I think it was. And we started living in this Jewish home. And then fortunately my wife was a seamstress, she had her own dress company, little dress store in Vancouver. So when we came here, she was able to find work right away at a Jewish dress manufacturing company called Exclusive Dress on King St. So she found a job right away. We had no money, you know, to speak of. After paying a couple weeks rent we had nothing. Fortunately she started working so at least we we're able to pay rent and eat. And I used to read Toronto newspapers every day looking for the want ads, and I would go apply for a job. As soon as they see my black hair— position filled. I walked the streets of Toronto for 3 months, couldn't find a job, nobody hired me, you know? I said, “oh my God, what did I get myself into?” Later on a friend of mine phoned me, said “Sam, there is a job at a Jewish factory, a toy company.” I said, “I don't care what it is, I'll take it.”
00:05:01.000
00:05:01.000
SB
So I went to this toy company, they hired me right away. And then later on another job was offered to me, I. Kaplan Shoe Manufacturing Company, another Jewish firm, making ladies shoes. So I went there and applied and they hired me right away. So it was piecework, hard work, hammering all day. Laughs. So I worked there for about 3 or 4 years. And⁠— what I really wanted to do was become a dress cutter, you know, in a dress factory, since my wife was involved in the dresses. So, from Exclusive Dress, somebody phoned my wife. This Japanese lady was a designer, a dress designer. She was retiring, or whatever, and wanted my wife to take over. So she went to this place called NuMode dress company. It was a small dress company, and she became a designer there. And then⁠— to make a long story short, after a few years NuMode Dress became one of the largest dress manufacturers in Canada. She trained about five designers, they had about 60 dress designers. So then I wanted to follow her footsteps and become a dress cutter. In the meantime, there is another job that came up— it was a company that I eventually owned later in the years. And this Mr. Bayer, he had about three different business is going. One of businesses was making cowboys shoes, you know, Hopalong Cassidy, cowboy shoes, and ladies muffs, hand muffs and different things. So I applied there and Mr. Bayer hired me right away. There was a cutter there,a Mr. Max something, I forgot his name. So he showed me, long table like this, lay out material like this, Sam describes the layout with his hands. laid patterns and showed me how to become a cutter.So I worked there for a few years, and Mr. Bayer decided to close his business. So Mr. Bayer was like a father to me, really, truly. And I used to work very hard for him. When he closed the business,I told Mr. Bayer, “You know Mr. Bayer, I would like to go on and become a dress cutter.” He said, “No, no Sam, you're not going anywhere. You are working for me.” I said, “But what am I going to do?” So you had this fur supply business. In those days used to supply all the furriers across Canada  with accessories, making into fur coats. So he put me in the store and I said, “What am I going to do Mr. Bayer?” “You are going to work in the office”, he said. So he sent me to school— to Shaw school on Bloor Street to take up typing, you know? Laughs. I came back, I finished the course. He put me in the office to take diction, write letters, answer phones. And  this is not for me. I said, “Mr. Bayer, this is not for me. This is ladies work. I want to move on.” He said, “No, no, you aren't going anywhere.” So he had a relative, an old spinster, Miss Hartman. She used to run the store. So he put her at the office and put me in charge of the store. So that's how I learned the fur business, the fur supply business. So I worked for him for about 14 or 15 years I guess. And what happened was⁠— he had a brother-in-law, like they were partners. And I hate to say anything bad about anybody, but this  particular partner— Mr. Bayer was too busy with his other businesses. So this Mr. Rodaman took over this fur supply business. Sam taps the table. But unfortunately he was a womanizer, a gambler. He comes in around 10:30 in the morning. I open the store at 8 o'clock. He comes in around 10:30, by 1:00 or 1:30 he is gone. So I was there all day long running the store. I used to run to New York, Montreal, buying trips, buying supplies. And then unfortunately one year— I used to work— January to February were very, very busy months. And September to the end of November were very busy, you know, the fur business.
00:10:01.000
00:10:01.000
SB
And I used to work until, 8, 9 o'clock at night preparing orders, packing up orders in the morning so shippers could ship it. So unfortunately one year— I used to get a small bonus on Christmas. But this one particular year, he cut my bonus, you know? So what happened, that kind of upset me, because I more than worked for my bonus, like you know, it was nothing. And I stopped working. 8 o'clock I opened, 5 o'clock I closed up the store and go home. I never reported another minute of overtime. So what happened, we have all these orders like this Sam shows a stack with his hands. across Canada. And they all phoned in— “Where's my order? Cancel it, cancel it, cancel it”, you know? And it got so bad, that his business started going down. And— oh, I didn't care. So he called me into his office. He said, “What's the matter Sam? You're not the same Sam anymore. What's happening?” I said, “I won't tell you, but I am going to leave you after the summer holiday. So get someone in here. I'll train him for two, three months, and I'm gone.” “No, no, no, you aren't going” he said. “What happened?” So I told him what happened. I said, “You know I used to work very hard for you. And last year what did you do? You cut my Christmas bonus”. He went “Oh shit!” and brings money out and I said “I don't want your money anymore”. He said “That goddamn bookkeeper”. I said “Don't say that. Who signs that cheque? You sign that cheque. I don't want your money.” So I went for a summer holiday, came back— nobody there. I said, “Where is the new fellow I am going to train?” He said, “ No Sam, you aren't going to leave me”. He gave me a raise before I go away, gave me a raise when I came back. But I said, “I don't want your money anymore”. It kind of hurt me here. Sam points to his chest. It got to the point where he had to sell his business. So there was a customer of ours, Mr. Howard Cooper— you can see his picture up there— Sam points to the gallery of Jewish Torontonians on display at the Japanese Canadian Cultural Centre. and he came to see me. He said, “You know Sam I am thinking of buying this business”. I said, “Oh, go ahead, I'll work for you”. He said, “No, no, no. I want you as a partner.” So now, where am I going to get the money to buy this business? So I went to the bank, Mr. Bruce at CIBC that knew me for over 15 years. I asked him for a loan. He wouldn't give me a cent. He said, “How about your house?”. I said, “No, no, I can't put that up. That is my wife's.” I didn't want to lose my house. He didn't want to give me any loans, so I said, Ok, fine. I went to see Mr. Henry at NuMode dress, explained it to him. He said, “Oh, no worries.” So he picks up the phone and phoned TD, Toronto Dominion, Mr. Clarkson. He said, “I have someone here looking for a loan.” He said, “Send him over.” Within half an hour I had my loan, all because of Mr. Henry. So we bought the business, and we started this fur supply business. Like any new business, it takes time to build up. For the first few years we were kind of in the red, so Mr. Cooper wasn't too happy. I said, “Don't worry, Howard, we are a new company, it will take 4, 5 years before we start making money.” Sure enough, fourth year, we were in the black. Fifth year, more in the black. Mr. Henry also loaned me some money, my kid brother loaned me some money— and with the loan, we bought the business. So after a while, I paid Mr. Henry back, and then I had people in Japan order a beautiful Japanese kimono for his wife. And oh, she was so happy. My kid brother, I paid him back and bought him a great big television. And then we were on our way. So unfortunately, in the fifth year, my partner Mr. Cooper had a massive heart attack and died. Boom, like that. Now, I'm right back where I started from. So I had one of my kid brothers come join me to look after the store, and joined him. So I had to go on the road selling. So I used to travel across Canada twice a year as a salesman. And fortunately for me, most of the fur stores  we are owned by Jewish people, and they were very supportive of me.
00:15:03.000
00:15:03.000
SB
So everywhere I go, it's all strange territory to me. Alberta, Saskatchewan, Vancouver. And all the people I remember, mostly Jewish people, they are very supportive of me, and they supported me for years and years and years. I'll show you a list that I made Sam pulls out a handwritten list of names. a long time ago. These are all the people that supported me through the years. Those are Jewish business people that I was associated with for years and years. And all these companies— fur stores. That's how I survived in the Jewish community. After that one room bedroom, when I started working we started looking around for another flat to rent at a Jewish Home. This old couple, Mr. and Mrs. Levenson— so we rented this three-room flat. My wife is expecting a baby. I used to do a lot of chores for him. And they were just like our parents, they treated us really nice. So we live there for quite a few years until my baby came. Later on— I was so involved with the Jewish people at that time. Then there was a good friend of mine, brother and sister living across the street. This is near Kensington Market. You know where Kensington Market is? That is where the home was. So this brother and sister lived across the street, and they came over one day, and they said “You know what Sam, there's a flat rented on Dundas Street owned by”— jeez, I forgot the name. It was store, a chicken store and a fish store that this man owned. We could rent the whole upstairs together and save on rent. So we decided to move. The Levenson's we're very unhappy to lose us, but, anyway, we moved into this place. He was very nice. Of course, sharing the apartment together we saved money. We didn't have too much money in those days. The funny part was, he had hundreds of chickens in the backyard. Because you know, the Jewish people had to sell the chicken live, have the rabbi, you know, bless it. So in the meantime, all these chickens, he said, “Take all the eggs you want”. So we had free eggs and he had vegetables. Everything in the basement. Because what he used to do, being a chicken house, there used to be rats running around. And what he would do, he had a gun and pow, Sam makes a shooting motion with his hands. shoot. So he scared his wife so much, the wife took off, and he was all by himself. Laughs. And that was quite a life, until such time that my parents phoned me from Fort William. They were thinking of moving out. So, I said, “You know what dad, as the kids grow up, they are all going to move out,  and you'll be left on your own in Fort William. So why don't you all come to Toronto? Move to Toronto. Buy a house in Toronto.” They were working in a logging camp, all my kid brothers. Oh, they were unclear because they work so hard up there. So my dad came down, stayed with us. My wife and dad went around Toronto and found a nice three-storey home in the Beach district. You know, by Woodbine? So, the whole family came and we started living together. So that was the beginning of our life in Toronto. In the meantime of course, all these Jewish people— when I took over the business, I went to see Mrs. Cooper. I said, “You know Mrs. Cooper,if we close the business your husband is going to lose all his money, I'm going to lose money. So do me a favor, keep me in business.” 
00:20:09.000
00:20:09.000
SB
At that time I think the interest was 4%. So I offered her 6% on her husband's money. So it took me about 4 or 5 years, paid it all back, and the business was all mine. I don't know how many years I was in business. There was three other businesses, that were similar to ours. Jewish firms. All these Jewish people supported me. They said, “You know what Sam, we have to keep you in business.” Because after all, the other three businesses were Jewish. “But it's good to have competition so we're going to support you.” So through the years they supported me. And eventually one closed, two closed, third closed and eventually I was the only one left. So until my retirement I ran this business. That's why I appreciate all these people that supported me through the years. I was able to survive. So I guess I know a lot of the Jewish life. I've been to bar mitzvahs, I've been golfing, all kinds of weddings. So to me, not only myself, a lot of the nisei, nisei is the second generation Japanese like us. They all went through the same thing. If it wasn't for the Jewish people, I don't know what would have happened to us. Nobody hired us, but all these nisei, they were hired by all the Jewish companies. There were all kinds of manufacturers, dress manufacturers, furriers. and what else were there? Cleaners. They all hired Japanese. They allowed us to start our life in Toronto. So I always appreciate what they have done through the years for the Japanese. That's my experience. I think Jewish people understand the hardship that the Japanese went through because they too themselves were discriminated through the years, right? So I think they understood our position. That's why they opened their arms to us.  I think a lot of these people that I know, I think are gone now. See I'm going to be 89, next week. I'm going to be 89. So I imagine a lot of these people are gone too. Sam points to the list. I met a couple of them at the gala last year. Always nice to see them. I hadn't seen them in years. They got old too Laughs. but it was nice to meet them.  So any other questions you'd like to ask me?
AP
Sure. I'm wondering a bit about your life before the war and internment. Can you talk—
SB
Before the war?
AP
Yeah.
SB
I was too young actually. My dad was a Japanese foreman. He used to work in a sawmill. Even back then they had discrimination against the Japanese. So my dad used to look after all these Japanese people that they hired. I remember once, oh it was terrible. I was 15, and on the weekends I used to go to the sawmill to help my dad shovel sawdust and stuff like that. And then one day, oh I didn't know, this scared the living Jesus out of me. I don't know if you know a sawmill, but they have these carriers where they put the logs. It goes back and forth and saws and makes timbers. My dad was a tally man, he used to tally all the logs coming up. Measure it, see how much lumber they could get. So as this carriage came back, this fellow on the carriage, you know all this grease, “phew”, he flicked it like this and hits my dad's paper. My dad waited for the guy to come back. He had a chunk of wood, waited, and “pfoo, shwoo”, hit him on the head. Oh they got into a scrap. I said, oh, what's going to happen? I was shivering. But then nothing happened. It was instant, they stop picking on Japanese, because they knew they were going to fight back.
00:25:08.000
00:25:08.000
SB
Because otherwise they are docile, they don't like trouble. Like even through all these years in Toronto, hardly ever heard of a Japanese committing crimes or anything like that. They are very docile, they don't want no trouble. So that's our life. Of course because of the war we had to stop our education, right? So the top four boys, they didn't even get into high school. Like I just finished Grade 9. At that time I wanted to become a doctor, and I was studying Latin. But then they war killed all that. So then after we got into the ghost town, nothing else we can do, just work. Just to support the family. We had 11 children. So all the four top boys sacrificed their life, working through their lives just to support the family. That was our family life. And I'm sure a lot of the people here, they've gone through the same thing. Some went to sugar farms in Alberta or Saskatchewan, and they had a tough time, very, very tough time. I think you can't get away from the discrimination. You know it's funny, after a few years in Toronto, all these people that wouldn't give me a job— the rumor kind of floated around that these Japanese are very loyal, honest, hard worker. It must have gone around. I used to get stopped on the street. “ Do you know any Japanese looking for work?” I said, “I'll tell you what. All the Japanese in Toronto have very responsible, key positions in Jewish firms.” They were all working for Jewish companies. It was very hard to find anyone anyway. “But if I do find anybody, I'll let you know.” But inside I'm unclear, I said “Where were you when I needed a job?”  That's the way it was. These are the things that I can't forget.  It stays with you. So, I don't know what else. You know I don't know what else I can tell you about my life. Mr. Beyer, I owed him a lot. He was just like a father to me. I used to work very hard for him. He knew it. This factory, upstairs, there was Toronto Embroidery and Quilting Company next door. And the windows, you could see through the windows. Mr. Bayer, he used to go over there, I don't know what for, business maybe. He could see into our room, and I would be working on the cutting machine. And all the kids, these sewers, they were running around, fooling around. I didn't know this, but he could see. And then there's an elevator in the back, and everyone runs back to their machine. I could hear the elevator, I knew it was Mr. Bayer was coming up. I'd be having a cigarette. so I'd stand there, even if he came up I didn't care, so I just had my cigarette. “Hi Mr. Bayer”, “Hi Sam”. All these guys— but he knew. So every so often Mr. Bayer would come over, he would give me 10, 20 dollars. “What's that for?” “Take your wife out for dinner.” “No, no, you pay me!” “No, no. Take it!” that's the way he used to treat me. He was very nice. Sadly he passed away.
AP
When you came to Toronto and a lot of the people you knew you said were employed by Jewish employers, did you know any people employed by non-Jewish employers?
SB
Not very many that I know of. Most of the people that I know were all working for Jewish companies— dress houses, cleaners, fur suppliers, of course furriers. Quite a few boys worked in the fur business, learning to make fur coats.
00:30:05.000
00:30:05.000
SB
Aside from the fur industry, I don't know too much outside. I remember vividly— His name was Dick, Dick Richards, Japanese boy. He was a little older than me. He was a university grad in BC. We used to be friends, we got together. He told me, when he went to look for a job, he went to an interview for one of the jobs, he had the audacity to speak to him in broken English. You know how they speak? And he's a university educated person. And he could speak to you— he could speak hardly any Japanese. He was more versed in English. So after a while he gave him two cents worth and told him where to go and took off. That's the way we are treated. “You speak-a da' English?”, you know how they speak? He was so upset. But you can't help it because it's the Japanese— American war. And they didn't know us, they didn't know what a Japanese looks like. Even my one other friend, when they were relocated to northern Ontario, they were all on the train and there was a whole bunch of people curious to see what the Japanese look like.  So this Doug, he told me, he told everyone “Put your best suit on” and they got off the train. One little boy came up to him and said “Mister, Mister, are you Japanese?” He said, “Yeah” and he said “No, you aren't Japanese. ”Why, why you say that?“ ”Japanese eyes like that, bucktoothlaughs. You know, the comedy. And he laughed, he told everyone. Oh that was so funny. So these innocent kids, they don't know what Japanese looks like. That's the comment he had.”
AP
So you mentioned, and I have heard other people mention this as well that, the Jewish community in Toronto help Japanese-Canadians by offering them jobs.
SB
Oh yeah.
AP
Offering them places to live.
SB
To stay. You  see all those plaques up there Sam waves in the direction of the plaques. all of these people that had experience with Jewish people. They lived together, offered  accommodation, some of them became babysitters for the Jewish people. So the whole bunch of, most of us. Even my dad I think he went through the same thing. But he became self-employed. He was a carpenter. Luckily he had all these Jewish homes to work on. A lot of people wanted a recreation room built. So he had 2 other friends, the three of them were self-employed, become carpenters. So they did a lot of work for the Jewish homes. Renovating and making recreation rooms and things of this sort. So that kept them going. So all of us were tied into the Jewish community. Without the help I don't know what would have happened to all of us.
AP
Were there any other ways that the Jewish Community assisted that you could think of aside from jobs and apartments? Did they help in other ways?
SB
Well not really. The whole of life involves jobs, to make income. Without the Jewish firms a lot of people would have suffered I think. I for one am always thankful for the help they gave us and the opportunity to start life in Toronto.
AP
Was there anyone else in Toronto that was helpful to yourself or the Japanese community that you can think of?
SB
I'm sure eventually they did pick up all the Japanese, because they wanted Japanese help. Like I know Canadian Tire and all these people they hired— started hiring Japanese. A lot of Japanese are in key positions in these companies. These are Caucasian companies, not Jewish companies. They start hiring a lot of Japanese. Imperial Optical.
00:35:05.000
00:35:05.000
SB
A lot of my friends worked there. So I think, beginning of the Jewish help, the outside people started to know what the Japanese were like. Consequently they started hiring Japanese. They wanted good help. Once they work there, they work there for their whole life. They don't quit. They become key people. I know Eaton hired, Eaton  hired a lot of Japanese. And Imperial Optical, Canadian Tire, a lot of these big companies start hiring a lot of Japanese. As far as the beginning it was here, Jewish.
AP
Going back to your earlier life, where did you grow up,Vancouver?
SB
New Westminster, actually. We were all born there except for my youngest kids, they were all born in Ontario, in Fort Williams.
AP
So what was your childhood like, growing up?
SB
We weren't rich or anything. My dad was the only worker, he was a foreman in a sawmill. We didn't do without anything. He was a pretty good father. As Japanese custom goes, father is boss. Nobody spoke back to dad. We do exactly what he says. We go to Sunday school, we go to school, we go to Japanese school. And that was our whole life. Nothing too exciting, just a regular life. So I guess Mom, at that time we had 8 children, before the war. 3 more came after. So I guess Mom worked very hard, raising 8 children. We were very lucky, dad was very good, a good supplier, so we didn't do without anything. So that was our childhood life. The biggest thing was, after we came to Toronto, of course all my kid brother's went to school here. My sisters became nurses. My brother's all did well. One of my brothers became a IBM associate with his own company. All in all everyone did okay. They worked hard. They all eventually got married, started their own family, bought their places. At the moment we lost three. Two sisters and one brother— no, we lost four now. Last year one of my brothers passed away. So there's 7 of us left now. And now we get along very good. We are a very close family. I know families in Toronto that don't get along together, but we've been very lucky, we are very close.
AP
Does everyone live in the Toronto area? Your brothers and sisters?
SB
Yes. They are all in Toronto except for my sister in London, Ontario, but she passed away. Her daughter still lives in London. Otherwise everyone is in Toronto.
AP
So after the war the whole family eventually moved out east to Toronto?
SB
Yes, yes. From Fort William they came to Toronto and then they all went on their own. And as they got older they got married, started their own families. So they're all doing well. Most of them are retired now. All my brothers are retired, even my sisters.
AP
During the war, were you all together as a family?
SB
When we first came to Toronto we used to live together. We had a three-storey home, but it was  packed.
00:40:04.000
00:40:04.000
SB
Until everyone started moving out a little by little.
AP
Do you recall much about the journey from BC to Ontario?
SB
I'm sorry?
AP
Do you remember the journey from BC to Ontario?
SB
Oh definitely. When we all got packed into those trains. Isn't it funny, I was 15 at the time. When we boarded the train, I see this Bill Moscow. I used to go to school with him. He came on the train, he was dressed in an army uniform. “Hey Bill”, he came running over. “Hey Sam, how you doing?” I said, “You joined the army, eh?” He said “Yeah.” I said, “Good luck to you”. He said, “Good luck to you, too. Where you going?” I said “I don't know. A place called Kaslo.” We didn't know where that was, where we were being shipped. So he said hi and go by. So I don't know what happened to him I hope he's still alive, you know? He joined the army. That was a nice experience to bump into him at the time. And then we got to Nelson, BC, got on the ferry and shipped into Kaslo. And Kaslo was kind of a ghost town. All the people— it was a beautiful place. I forgot the name of the lake, Okanagan Lake or whatever it was. It was a beautiful, resort-like place. I heard that a lot of Americans used to come up there as a resort. And they had the old Kaslo hotel which was abandoned. Nobody there. We all got shipped in there in different dead buildings that they fixed up.  And we all got shipped into there. And that's how we started life, you know? It was nice. Well, we were too young to know anything else you know what I mean? So we did the most that we can do. I got a job as a garbage collector, $0.10 an hour. Laughs. Cleaning out our houses. all my brothers. That was the job we're doing at the time. Anything. My younger kids— a lot of the older Japanese ladies and men that taught in Vancouver, they became teachers. So they started the school. So my young kid brothers they went to school there. So they continued education, except for the top four of us that had to work. Eventually we went to a place called Fernie and became a logger, felling trees. And I had a partner, he was from Vancouver Island, and he was a logger at the time. So he came and showed us what to do, you know, cutting timbers. So I had a little bit of experience as a timber worker, becoming a logger. And that was in Fernie. Oh, it's funny, there must have been about 10 of us I guess. So we used to go downtown, into Fernie. It was quite a hike but we used to walk. Go to the restaurant, have a— in those days we used to play baseball with the locals there. And you should see all these young girls. They had never seen Japanese before. And they all wanted to get to know us. And we were scared, we were too young. Laughs. If we only knew at the time. Laughs. They really want to get to know us, you know? And they hang around with us. And we were too shy and too scared to do anything. If I know what I know today, it would have been a great time. Laughs. Yeah there was some nice looking girls. All we can do is look and that's all. That was a good time, it was a very nice time. My biggest appreciation and things that I can't forget today is when my partner passed away and I had to start traveling to the Thunder Bay, Winnipeg, through Canada, become a salesman.
00:45:08.000
00:45:08.000
SB
And oh I was really scared at the time because I didn't know what to expect, right? So every place I go I find the Jewish people. They didn't know I was Japanese. They knew my name, Baba. “Oh, you're Japanese?” and they treat me so nice. So as I got to Winnipeg, to Saskatoon, Regina my confidence started building because they were really, really nice. Treat me like a regular and they supported me. And this is many years later, a lot of people that worked for the Jewish firms, finishers and cutters and stuff. They do all the buying, whatever they need. They are the ones that ordered. So I got very friendly with them, the ladies, I was a lady's man kind of thing. They all liked me so they gave me orders. So one day I went to Hudson Bay in Winnipeg and this lady, I forgot her name, but she was the forelady there. “Oh Mr. Baba, I heard you are out of business.” I said “What?”. We were told you were out of business. I said “No”. And don't tell me I was going to get this across Canada. Would you tell me who said that? “Well I shouldn't do that” she said. I said “Please do, this is my livelihood.” She said it's your competition that told her I was out of business. So he got all the business at the time. And she was so upset, he will never get another cent of business from us. And I go to Regina and I get the same thing. I go to Saskatoon and I get the same thing. And my heart went straight down, because you know that's my livelihood, right? But by the time I got to EdmontonCalgary, Vancouver, it stopped. It was regular. So then I phoned Toronto, Mr.— the Fur Traders Association head man. I said, “You know, when I get back to Toronto I want to a meeting of all of the furriers. I want  to explain to you what happened.” But I really didn't want to do it. But fortunately nothing came out of it, and when I came back I phoned and said forget it, it's done, forget it. Because I didn't want to screw up the thing, you know, because it's all Jewish people, right?  And my Jewish competitor. So, drop it. That was a dirty trick. but sadly he lost all the business because of that.
AP
So you got back to Toronto and just decided not to talk to anyone about it?
SB
I'm sorry?
AP
When you got back to Toronto, you just, dropped—
SB
Oh, I told them drop it.
AP
Right.
SB
Didn't want to start this commotion because I'm depending on this Jewish firm to support me. So I said forget it, it's done, it's done. But I came out better for it anyway, so I got all the business from Hudson Bay and other people that heard about this. They supported me. So he's a loser and eventually he had to close up. He closed up. There was an Italian boy that used to work for him, I think he started and he was around 17 or 18. His name was Elio. He came to see me one day, he said “Sam, when you retire would you sell me this business? Would you make sure that I get this business?” I said “Sure, Elio, don't worry. I'll make sure that you get the first priority.” So it happened they had to close, they closed up. And I was 64 at the time. And he came to see me. “Sam, remember the promise that you made me about this business?” I said, “Oh yeah, don't worry, you are still going to get it.” He said, “No, I want it now.”  You know the company  folded up. He had nowhere to go. and he worked on this business all his life more or less, from his young age. So I talk to my wife I said what should we do? At the time the fur business was kind of going down. And all kinds of bad action against the furriers, you know? Killing animals and stuff like that, so the fur business was going down.
00:50:05.000
00:50:05.000
SB
So my wife said, “You know what Sam, maybe it is a good time to retire.” So I was hoping to work till 65, but I said okay. I called Elio in and said “Elio, you know what to do.” I took stock of the whole thing. I said, “I don't want no goodwill. What I want you to do, everything in this store pay me cost price. I'll show you the cost and you can have it. No goodwill.” So I sold him the business and then he was running it for a few years. Then I didn't know what to do after I retired at 64. Too old to look for another job. So time just flew like that, boom boom boom, before I turn around 5 years gone, 10 years gone. So I have no regrets. So that's how I got rid of my business and he was happy. He and his wife were in the store, carried on my business. He was the only fur supply store in Toronto. So, that's my life. Laughs.
AP
After you retired did you keep in touch with some of the people?
SB
Yes I did. I used to go downtown and look in on them, but a lot of them are closed up now. I used to drop in and say hi. Eventually the fur business was taken over by Greek people, and  some Italian people. Hardly any Jewish people left in the fur business. All those companies I think they're gone now. I don't know— you are probably too young to recognize some of these people. Laughs.
AP
No, I don't think— yeah— the names really don't. I know Henry Zagdanski from just hearing about him.
SB
From NuMode.
AP
Yeah. Last year for the gala who contacted you about that?
SB
The center.
AP
The center did.
SB
Because of the NuMode dress connection that my wife had. All the three boys— two boys and daughter, they phoned me and I sat with them. And they had NuMode dress samples hanging there. It was a beautiful gala event. A lot of Jewish people came. I met some people that I knew, a lot of the people I didn't know. As I was standing with all those displays there, this Catherine, you know that lady, was it her? Sam looks at the pamphlet from the gala. Somebody took a picture. What's her name? Catherine. This lady. You must know her.
AP
Kathleen Wynne.
SB
She was talking to me, I didn't know it was her. Laughs. And somebody took a picture and printed it. I said “oh my God”, I didn't know it was her.  Yeah so I got a picture with her.
AP
How would you like this connection, the legacy between Japanese Canadians and Jewish Canadians to be remembered in future generations?
SB
Oh yeah, we talk about it. My sons— my daughter's gone now, I lost her two years ago, she had cancer. So I only have my son. So a lot of the young people know the connection to the Jewish people. How we came about and how you guys came about. And even this Mr. and Mrs. Levenson, when my son came, she used to cook fish and stuff like that. Treat us like family. I think they're both gone now, sadly. I doubt very much if any of these people are in the business today. 
00:55:04.000
00:55:04.000
SB
I haven't been downtown, but I think a lot of the fur stores are gone now. Sadly.
AP
So I think we might be wrapping up. Is there anything you would like to add in regards to any of this stuff before we finish today?
SB
No. I was happy that you called me because all my life, whatever life is left for me now, I will never forget the kindness of the Jewish people, community, that helped the niseis and I will be thankful until the day I die. I will be.
AP
Ok, thanks so much for doing this interview with us.
SB
Oh, I appreciate your calling me and discussing some of this old history.
AP
Thank you. I appreciate it.
SB
Thank you very much.
AP
Thank you.
SB
Thanks very much.
AP
Alright, thanks a lot.
00:56:20.000

Metadata

Title

Sam Baba, interviewed by Alexander Pekic, 27 October 2015

Abstract

Sam speaks about his life in Toronto and his career as a furrier as well as the interaction between Jewish Canadians and himself and the Japanese Canadian community. He also speaks about his leaving his BC home and being sent to internment site and his family's eventual settling in Toronto.
This oral history is from an interview conducted by the Oral History cluster of the Landscapes of Injustice project.

Credits

Interviewee: Sam Baba
Interviewer: Alexander Pekic
Audio Checker: Natsuki Abe
Final Checker: Natsuki Abe
Encoder: Natsuki Abe
Encoder: Gordon Lyall
Publication Information: See Terms of Use for publication and licensing information.
Setting: Interview conducted at the Japanese Canadian Cultural Centre in Toronto Ontario.
Keywords: Jewish; fur; business; Toronto ; Kaslo ; Tashme ; Vancouver ; Fernie ; British Columbia

Terminology

Readers of these historical materials will encounter derogatory references to Japanese Canadians and euphemisms used to obscure the intent and impacts of the internment and dispossession. While these are important realities of the history, the Landscapes of Injustice Research Collective urges users to carefully consider their own terminological choices in writing and speaking about this topic today as we confront past injustice. See our statement on terminology, and related sources here.