Rintaro Hayashi, interviewed by Ann Sunahara, 04 December 1977
Abstract
In this interview,
Rintaro Hayashi
talks about working as a fisherman along the West coast of
British Columbia
before the war, and his concerns of Japanese air raids. He talks about his time spent
in camps in
Kaslo
, B.C. and the establishment of a farm used by his family. He talks about his time
working as a farmer, and moving from province to province. Rintaro talks about separating
from his family when they had to be evacuated because of his job,
and his frustrations with the Canadian Navy, who impounded his boat. Throughout the
interview, Rintaro expresses his frustrations with the
Canadian government
and his struggles with money. Rintaro talks about signing day, and how he felt it
made sense for Japanese Canadians to move East because it would move them away from
the West coast, away from possible air raids and bombings from
Japan
.
(This oral history is from the
NNMCC
's Sunahara Collection. Accession No. 2018-16-1-70-27)
00:00:00.000
Ann Sunahara (AS)
I am talking to Mr. Hayashi,
Richmond
. Mr. Hayashi was involved in a fisherman's association before the war. Now-
Missing audio 00:00:25
Rintaro Hayashi (RH)
Well at-before the war or during the war, well after the war. It was a fishing, and
then we have a kumiai (association), you know, kumiai is a not the union.
And we are had fish, and we need to... how about kumiai is 販売組合 (association responsible
for sales) sell the fish. And,
pause
I remember bringing the fish to the kumiai, and we sell in to the
United States
.
AS
Right.
RH
Well, sold some
pause
(?) sold the boat to the
Japan
. That is my job before the war, and the (?), I'll do it as a farmer, and strawberry
or loganberry or (?)-small fruit.
AS
Things like raspberry and strawberry?
RH
Not raspberry, strawberry and loganberry.
AS
Loganberries.
AS
Right.
RH
But if they are farmer, or they are working in sawmill or in (?), what
pause
business in grocery or that kind of business or farm work, they are not stop in that
time. But fishing, the whole thing stop on December 7th.
AS
Right. Your boat was impounded?
RH
By Canadian Navy.
AS
Right. You owned a boat.
RH
Yes I am.
AS
Big one? Or...
RH
No not so big.
AS
Gillnetter, or-
RH
Gillnetter.
AS
Gillnetter.
RH
And
(pause as Rintaro thinks)
I had big (?),
Steveston
people, about 3000, you know, everybody connected from Steveston-the June-second of
June, June the second of 1942.
AS
00:05:00.000Yes.
00:05:00.000
RH
But, after the war, midway, road camp was closed down.
AS
Right.
RH
Because it's 1942, and about ten or fifteenth day of June. No no-yeah, June. And I
moved to the
Kaslo
, because my family was there.
AS
Your family had gone ahead-
RH
Gone ahead Kaslo to 2 or 3 months before.
AS
And you stayed in Vancouver.
RH
Well I-after they state the evacuation and moved to the Vancouver where we- about
10 days. And then in 19... June... I moved to the (?) with my friends.
It’s a, we must... (president?) was in interior town, you know?
AS
Yeah.
RH
Japan’s navy or Japan’s air force, Vancouver, the boat to Vancouver (?) maybe can
give them residence or food for ourselves.
So we go teach it to the people how to grow the potatoes and other vegetables.
AS
Right. So you set up a garden? At (?).
RH
Yes, (?) in Kaslo. We are there 4, 5 farms a day. And we do that job...
AS
(Ann tries to interject)
In case-
RH
In 1942 and '43.
AS
I see. In case supplies were cut off because of the war.
Rintaro hums in agreement.
Oh. Did you think it was really possible?
RH
Well it, 1942, the season was almost past, you know.
AS
Yeah.
RH
For seeding or...
AS
Yes.
RH
So, that year, not much good. And the next year, it's-was not much good condition
because hose, we do it by hand.
AS
Oh right, yes.
RH
Just one hose, and we're the all (?).
AS
Right.
RH
But it is not new style, and not (?) machine, only hose.
AS
Right. So you could only do a little and you could not turn it very deep.
Rintaro hums in agreement.
Right.
RH
And then, I had advice from the
Commission
, moving to the East. It's one of the Hepburn farm in
Ontario
. Hepburn was one of the premier of the, you know, Ontario provincial government.
AS
Right.
RH
I think you can-
AS
Mitchell Hepburn. Yes.
RH
And he had a family in some place in Ontario. And there was 6 Nisei working over there,
but they don't know about the farming.
AS
Right.
RH
00:10:01.000
So they teach there and they move to Ontario. Not supposed to advice to the
Commission
. By (?) my parents, my father and mother.
00:10:01.000
RH
With me, I ask them, No, just you and your wife. So I said no,
Rintaro laughs
you know, because my own father and mother.
AS
They need you, yes.
Rintaro laughs
I can see. They were able to evacuate with your family? To stay with your family?
In
Kaslo
?
RH
They moved before when I was (?).
AS
And they stayed with your wife and your children
Rintaro hums in agreement.
Okay.
RH
And first advice (?).
AS
Yeah.
RH
That's about it. And second time, I (?) check to the Atlantic fishing, you see, and
if you go government pay whole things.
Train, and the bus, and other, everything. And, limit is 2 dollars everyday. And you
made it one (?), and (?).
But I say that’s no because Atlantic fishing was before we are almost there because
the Pacific fishing is very (?)...
my division was (?) thought like Japanese fishing in the Pacific Ocean.
AS
Oh. So you thought it would be the same on the Atlantic.
RH
Yeah, I-we try how the Atlantic fishing is going. So, I did it before.
AS
Before the war?
RH
Before the war.
AS
Ah.
RH
So, we had to leave Atlantic fishing.
AS
It would be a different kind of fishing, too, from Pacific fishing
Rintaro hums in agreement.
Yeah.
RH
And at that time I said (?). So what-then, we must give
table moves in the background and Rintaro is inaudible.
own money. Government cannot give job anymore
Rintaro chuckles.
So everyone's (?) from the
Custodian
, which is a (?) house, they are give money.
AS
And your (?)?
RH
Everyone (?). It continue for about three years.
AS
Were you working for the Commission when they said no more money? Or were they-
RH
The
Commission
don't give you anymore job. For you. Because, you know.
AS
Ah, okay. You refused to go.
AS
For two years.
RH
Then (?) Kaslo (?).
AS
1945 yes.
RH
'45. And we got to
Lemon Creek
(?) valley by...
AS
That's my-
Audio break 00:14:40
RH
Rintaro laughs
And it's 1945, the war's over.
AS
00:15:02.000Yeah.
00:15:02.000
RH
It's two way then.
AS
Right.
RH
That is
Rintaro laughs
what you choose.
Rintaro continues laughing.
AS
Yeah, the repatriates-the repatriation survey.
Audio break 00:15:14
RH
You know, I don't know Japan is going to war, and the Japan is really hard to live
and,
we are nothing in Japan, so father and mother, and myself and wife. But
Rintaro chuckles
if I don’t speak English more, maybe I just move to Japan. But it’s a pretty hard
thing so
pause
we go beyond the Rockies. I go to
Raymond
, Alberta. There’s a friend there so-
AS
Where in Alberta did you go?
RH
Raymond.
AS
Raymond. Right, right.
RH
And live there about 1 year and about 6 months. Two season I work for sugar beets.
AS
Yeah.
RH
Rintaro laughs.
Worker is myself and my wife.
AS
Yes.
RH
My son is small.
Rintaro laughs.
AS
They're little kids.
RH
Small.
AS
And your parents, they were too old?
RH
Too old. And my mother was sick in the hospital about 2 or 3 months. So, I want to
come back to the
B.C.
So, I write a letter to the Commission, but they not allow me. And my sister's boy
live in (?), and he (?), and if they come back to (?), I knew (?).
But government say no. And my sister is in
Westbank
, they write to me, the government, come back to the B.C., (?) but the government
said no.
AS
This is in 1947? Then?
RH
Yeah, that time. That time.
AS
Yeah.
AS
Right.
RH
And
pause
now the travel permit (?) and the government, and the (?) ways of (?) trouble for
the (?). So, (?) I got in trouble from the
RCMP
, and then come to the (?) ask her to the (?), he was the (?) of-I guess my niece.
AS
Right.
RH
And he was a principal with some Westbank junior and senior, in high school.
AS
What was his name again?
RH
Bruce Woodsworth. Woodsworth.
Rintaro keeps trying to pronounce Bruce's last name for Ann to understand.
AS
Oh right, Woodsworth.-
RH
Bruce Woodsworth.
AS
Yeah.
RH
His father is one of the-
AS
Yes, yes, founder.
AS
Yeah.
RH
I think the government doesn’t know that, but just in our own family.
AS
So you came back illegally?
RH
00:20:00.000
Yeah, sneak in!
Rintaro laughs.
00:20:00.000
RH
To the Westbank. And we were there until 1951.
AS
This is
West Vancouver
?
RH
Westbank. In the
Okanagan Valley
.
AS
Right.
RH
And up to the family orchard.
AS
Right, right.
RH
I know that after (?), use (dollar?), hire fourteen (?) of (?) is quite heavy, you
see. The big one.
AS
Yeah.
RH
Use (?) got from the beach.
AS
Right.
RH
Yeah. And irrigation for the tomatoes, and (?). That is about 3 years, just-in Kelowna,
it was a operation for my prostate. Prostate operation.
AS
Right.
RH
And doctor says about 2 week in the hospital and you're alright, but I was about 2
months or so more, in the hospital.
And all was-it was 1950. That year I got the (?) the (?), that is it, I finished that
(?) insurance, and I got money from (?)-
AS
And you met-
RH
I got (?) in the Kelowna hospital.
Rintaro laughs.
AS
So your savings went to support you during the war...
RH
Yeah.
AS
And your insurance went for your operation.
RH
Operation.
Rintaro laughs.
And, 1951, it's 1949, you know, I-what called now? Before 1941, Japanese cannot move.
AS
Right.
RH
By special permission from government.
AS
Oh right. In 1949 they-
RH
'49.
AS
Stopped the-yeah, yeah.
RH
My friend come by to the Fraser, the
Steveston
and I hear that they are doing fishing.
But, I was study on how to feed the chicken, and in-I retire and (?).
AS
Right.
AS
Right.
RH
I-West side of the (?).
AS
Right.
RH
Because if I (?) over there, buy the lumber, and ask about lumber for the house, and
went to (?).
And-how many years you need (?) independent to buy the lumber. You buy the lumber,
they says 6 months.
6 month is about 5-6000 dollars, we had to do it.
AS
Yeah.
RH
And then I come down the (?) cannery, before I (?). The cannery manager was in (?)
government.
Rintaro leans over and shows something to Ann.
AS
Oh, yes.
RH
00:25:00.000
He was, before working at Matsuyama company, a Japanese (?). And, we phone to the
head office that
pause
00:25:00.000
RH
Mr. Ben was there-died, and ask her to take the Jack, Richard Kack. We tell (?), I
think he
Rintaro mumbles as he speaks, making him difficult to hear
Okay, well, if you come by, I don't find you (?) for him, and house in
pause
Haney
.
AS
Right.
RH
So
Rintaro chuckles
I thought that was (?), I come bac to
Rintaro laughs as he speaks.
(?) Westbank (?) family to the Steveston.
AS
So when the Cannery offered to bankroll you, you went back into fishing.
RH
Yeah, so they-whole things there, that was easy way for (?) family in Surrey.
AS
Right.
RH
But when my (?), you know, in North Delta.
AS
Yeah. Did you ever-
RH
Come back to Steveston, company is (?) for me (?), and they-can be housing area.
AS
Did you ever build your farm?
RH
No.
AS
Even part time?
RH
Part time?
AS
In Surrey?
RH
No.
AS
No.
RH
Oh, what about-I payed 350 dollars, acre. Land. In 1951. After it's a (?),
and said it's about 8,000 dollars.
AS
An acre?
RH
No, no.
AS
For total.
RH
That money is
Rintaro begins to laugh loudly.
AS
Still it would have been better if you could have had your old property.
RH
Rintaro laughs.
The government was sold my house (?), 1,200 dollars. And the (?) asked me to (?) the
owner, he said 17,000 dollars.
And-you know 17,000
Rintaro laughs
that was big money for me.
AS
Yes.
RH
So like I can't (?).
AS
You mean the man who bought your property, in 1943, let's say, for 1200 dollars, said
he'd sell it back to you for 17,000?
Ann is in disbelief.
RH
17,000.
AS
That was in 1950.
RH
'50. '51.
AS
'51.
RH
Yeah. And after, about one year ago, that land sell 175,000.
AS
Wow.
RH
Rintaro laughs.
Audio break 00:28:53
The government is in the-they-my wife call that 損害賠償 (compensation for damage).
Audio break 00:29:03
One thing (?) is boat-I bought a boat. I paid about 2,000 before the (?).
AS
Yeah.
RH
And it's certified 700 dollars, and they all (?) by
Commission
, and I got (?).
AS
So they sold your boat-
RH
Yes.
AS
Which you had got for 2,000.
RH
Sold my boat and there's no-
Audio break 00:29:43
AS
You could not make a claim on the boat then, later.
RH
We did it, but lose some money. (?) and I use all the money.
AS
Right. Because you had-
RH
00:30:00.000
So, you're-that means you're (?), like not the, you know-why?
00:30:00.000
RH
I should get cheque, and I should pay that money. And use that money. Because I accept
that way, we cannot live.
AS
Right.
RH
This is why I use that money.
AS
Yeah.
RH
But
Rintaro chuckles
government says, You use money, you are (?).
AS
Yes.
RH
This is the point. And-
AS
Do you know of many people who were like that?
RH
Oh yes, everyone. Whole
Richmond
, and Richmond was a no compensation. The families (?), but Richmond is not-Richmond
is cannery, because-
AS
You have to be Canadian to go places?
RH
Farmer, they couldn't-Japanese? They quit farming. They could-other people, they quit
business, not naturalized or Canadian-born.
But fishing is only Canadian born or naturalized Canadian.
AS
Right.
RH
There is a stop there-business in December the 7th, 194-
Audio break 00:31:45
And there were sort of captured by Canadian Navy, and we cannot reuse it again.
AS
Did you hope to?
RH
Hm?
AS
Did you hope that you might, or did you figure right from the beginning, there would
be trouble.
RH
(?)?
AS
Ann clarifies her question.
Did you ask to go back to fishing?
RH
No, you know
Rintaro giggles
we must evacuate from (?).
RH
No, no no.
RH
No, no. Kind of-this is kind of case, you know. Some fisherman forget their document
for, you know.
Forget in his boat. And, he go ask to the Navy, and get permit to go his boat. It
looks funny. And you go in the boat,
there's no engine.
AS
Ah.
RH
And
pause
that is complain to the Navy, and here that (?), here they go his boat, someone who's
(?).
AS
Yeah, yeah.
RH
On some boat no (?).
AS
Right.
RH
On some boat no pump, some boat is-
AS
No compass, yeah.
RH
Yeah everything, (?). So, we complain to the Navy, and the Navy officer sent us to
the government
pause
fishing association office. And we met him, and he said, This case-where? Where? Who
stole, you know, so and so. You (? ) to the Navy.
But, the Navy was watching, we don't know (?). This is, you know-
AS
Right.
RH
Rintaro laughs.
After, nothing is going to change
Rintari continues laughing.
AS
00:35:04.000
So in other words, people went back to get things from their boats, and they found
things stolen.
Rintaro hums in agreement.
00:35:04.000
AS
And you were asked to make complaints to the Navy, when you knew the Navy were supposed
to be watching the boats.
RH
And then he says it happens-When? Where? Who?
Rintaro laughs loudly.
AS
If you were supposed to be (?), then okay.
Rintaro laughs loudly over Ann.
RH
That's all!
AS
Yeah. It's like expecting the guy who's mother (?) to know who his mother (?).
Rintaro laughs loudly.
RH
This is the Navy (?).
AS
Yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah.
RH
And the fishermans-nothing compensation.
AS
Right.
RH
Farmer probably got some-
AS
Some, yeah. Yeah well that was-
Audio break 00:35:55
Was it
Salt Spring Island
that he had his property on?
()
Oh yeah, it was Mr. Iwasaki owned some 600 acres there.
I know I was one of the engineers on the boats, we used to go there and his property
was by the piles,
with the war (salting?) plant. I know very well, and he'd fight for it, and he received
the cheque.
AS
And he signed the piece of paper, yeah.
Piece of paper. And the person who made the deal, he died, so there you are.
Audio break 00:36:34
You can't put it on the tape because he made the deal with him.
Audio break 00:36:40
RH
In the... (?) there was Shoji,
Yasuzo Shoji
. He was a First World War veteran.
AS
Oh, yes, yes.
RH
You know his name.
AS
Yes.
RH
And, he
pause
I think-
Audio break 00:37:10
First World War Veteran, and he-
AS
Farm under the-
RH
Yeah, farm about
pause
something, about 6 acres of land, and he start chicken farm, and (?), he was evacuated,
because he was Japanese.
AS
Yeah.
RH
So, the government sold his house and (?), and about 2,400 (?), and (pause) then,
they don't expense,
or they don't think of him for the (?), and it was 36 dollars-36 something like-well
that-I don't know how many.
He had farm and house, and chickens, and 2,400 chickens or so. And (?)
Audio break 00:39:02
Mr. Bird
was the one-man commission of the
Bird Commission
of the Japanese community.
AS
Yes.
RH
His offer is 1 million, 200 thousand.
AS
Right, right.
RH
00:40:00.000
And in that time, we are in
Alberta
, so we had to say one opinion to the (?). But, so, we should (?), cannot agree, this
is my opinion.
But in Alberta there is many of the
Fraser Valley
farmers there. We let them say if we (?)
00:40:00.000
AS
He agreed too.
RH
He agreed too. And another conversation will be start again, they promise to us. And
I think 300,000 from the 1,200,000,
and 900,000 of us.
AS
Fraser Valley Farm.
RH
Fraser Valley Farm. I got 700 dollars. (Rintaro laughs.) Anyway, JCCA promise to another
conversation, whole Japanese to move from (?).
But they not do it.
AS
Well-
Audio break 00:41:37
RH
Kunitaro Shoyama
,
Kunio
’s father. When he move from
Vancouver
, he did not bring that-or he did not bring the ohitsu for rice, you know.
AS
Right.
RH
And the ohashi (chopsticks) or chawan (bowl), everything Japanese thing. All... And
he want to Canadian.
AS
Right.
AS
Yeah.
RH
Everybody says you are Japanese.
AS
I see, yes.
RH
And the past age-
Audio break 00:42:55
Yes, and I said this is about which North American Act, this-the Canadian constitutions.
And you cannot change in Canadian federal-
AS
Parliament, yeah.
RH
You must order from (?), and (?).
AS
Right, yeah.
RH
And when we-when Japanese fishing town cut down Japanese fishing license, we fight
to the Canadian government. This is a
pause
which North American act-the ministers, they may request license.
Rintaro emphasizes the word may.
AS
Right.
RH
So may is, you know, most important-
AS
Word. Yes.
RH
Word. And they (our lawyers?), the newcomers-May is the-so minister cannot cut down
the only-
AS
(?), yeah.
AS
But not that he can request a license.
Ann emphasizes the word, can.
RH
But, after-so in that time, in Ottawa we win because the newcomers fight about may
request.
And then, in federal... what is that...
pause as Rintaro thinks.
AS
In the Supreme Court?
RH
No no. Not in court.
AS
Parliament?
RH
Parliament, yeah. They cut down that may.
AS
And they change it.
RH
They change it.
AS
Shall or something.
RH
00:45:35.000
So my book, on page 34-
Recording ends abruptly at 45:35
00:45:35.000
RH
Recording starts abruptly.
1976.
AS
Yeah.
RH
Our common sense, you know?
AS
Right right right, yes.
RH
But, 1927,
Rintaro stutters as he speaks
Common sense is... pass away. He doesn’t know.
AS
Yeah, I see what you mean, yeah.
AS
Right.
RH
After he come from
Japan
, and he think about the present common sense, and it is regularized. Not this kind
of case. In 1976-27, they could did it.
AS
Yeah, yeah.
RH
I have parliament record. I read before in 1927.
AS
Right. You were a member of the Kumiai (association) in-when the Supreme Court decision-
when you were fighting in the Supreme Court for licenses?
RH
Yes, at that time we fight, you know.
AS
Were you just a fisherman or were you in the executive?
RH
We are not executive, but we are in young men's association.
AS
And is that-
RH
And when we do think we should fight, we said. But Japanese Consul,
he's not agree because he was back in Canadian fishermens. He afraid of that.
And , another thing, you know, the-we cannot win to the government.
AS
Right.
RH
Because that Homer case, (?) Homer was a (?) franchise in 1901 and '02. So-
AS
Is this-
RH
(?). We are win
Rintaro laughs
so, we cannot win by-to the government.
AS
Right.
RH
And (?) he against our opinion.
AS
Was he afraid you would get reaction among the White fisherman, and things would get...?
RH
At that time no, he told us, You are joined to Fisherman's Union, and their opinion
to stop the (?).
But fisherman, as you know, White fisherman, (?) fishermans, they are welcome. Japanese
fishermans go out when (?).
AS
Is the Young Men's Association mentioned, the same one, that
Ichiro Hirayama
was involved in?
RH
Yeah.
AS
I talked-
RH
He was-they come back from Japan after the (?).
AS
Yeah.
RH
He come in I think 1921(?).
RH
Is that so?
AS
He is in good health.
RH
(?)
Rintaro laughs, making his sentence difficult to hear.
RH
Rintaro interrupts.
Do you know a Shinji Sato?
AS
That name rings a bell. Yeah, he'd dead now.
RH
Yeah he's dead.
AS
Yeah, he's passed on, yeah.
RH
Yeah he's a Veteran. He is my friend.
Rintaro laughs.
AS
Mr. Hirayama
told me how he and Mr. Sato and
Mr. Hirose
made up a Japanese association in Winnipeg.
RH
Rintaro hums in agreement.
And they still continue that way.
AS
Yes. And how they met in hotel rooms, the curtains drawn, so the
Mounties
wouldn't know because it was illegal for them to meet.
RH
Yeah.
AS
Did you form a Japanese committee in Kaslo?
RH
00:50:45.000
Rintaro hums as he thinks.
I am, not a member of the staff.
00:50:45.000
AS
Was it already formed when you got there?
RH
Was it formed?
AS
Yeah, had people already decided who should speak for them?
RH
Not-you know people would listen-no men, you know, just the woman and the children,
and (woman?), and after they come back from camp, so...
pause
AS
Because I understand-
RH
Did you met the Mrs.
pause
Tanaka?
AS
Mrs. Tanaka? Yes, Mr. Herbie Tanaka?
RH
No no, not Herbie, Kizue Tanaka...
Audio break 00:51:38
AS
So when the men went to
Kaslo
, did they meet together to pick a leader among them? Or to pick leaders?
RH
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Long pause as Rintaro thinks.
They don't do (?).
Rintaro laughs.
AS
Well I understand from Mr. Mark Suzuki-
RH
Who?
Audio break 00:52:08
AS
Is this the way you remember it? He said-he gave me the name of the man on the Japanese
committee but I've lost it.
Pause
Did they make the complaint to say-to be to Vancouver or?
RH
I don't know. I do not remember.
AS
Oh, you don't remember. Because one thing I would like to find out is how these things
worked.
I know that Japanese committees in Alberta and in Manitoba, and in this instance in
Kaslo, worked to help the situation,
to make it more bearable. And, I want to write about that in my book if I can.
Audio break 00:52:54
Okay, that was my-went through the (?) before the (?) came up. So I went through the
(?) for the (?) project for nine years,
but I just stay for 2 months-2 years and a half on that (?), project. But I got a
job-a steady job on the third year. I was at a transportation company,
well I was with the Canadians, and that year it all went-children went back to the
elementary school with the (?) community, it was a special school.
AS
Were you in self-support at Kalso?
RH
No, you were-you weren't originally-
(?) in there, in 1942, I'll never forget that date, May the 23rd, the first year I
went there-well I went there and stay on the south (?) for 3 years-2 and a half years,
third year I had got the job, and I stayed 9 years there.
AS
That's the same one that
Dr. Miyazaki
was at?
RH
Dr. Miyazaki was-
Audio break 00:54:25
(?) minute. No translation, in his speech.
AS
Mr. Shirras
said that?
RH
No, Mr. (?).
AS
Mr. (?), right.
RH
00:55:46.000
But in
Steveston
, military cannot understand his speech. Because no translation. Nobody do it.
But after, we are one of (?) probably, you know, about the evacuation, and Mr. Sato
and myself, and Mr. (?), he said,
If Japanese Navy come outside the Japanese island and come to Vancouver and here,
then they have learned from the people. White people.
Because Japan won the House, and the (?), you know.
Ann hums in agreement.
This possibility is (?).
00:55:46.000
RH
Maybe they come, and bomb Vancouver, so (?) was behind you, and you may have (?),
maybe. In that time, we cannot stop them.
Because you are enemy aliens, your people is against the Canadian Navy or Army, we
just should shoot them. Yeah, but the White people, you see,
not enemy aliens, so we cannot stop them. So, you (go abide?) us, and move to the...you
know.
AS
So he told you that you were to be moved for your own protection.
RH
Protection. And we protect you the way-that's the only way that you go (?).
AS
I see. Why did you pick Kaslo and not sugar beet?
RH
Sugar beet, you know, family is poor, you know.
AS
Yes.
RH
Old
Rintaro laughs.
AS
You knew already-
RH
Two old poor people, and four little children-
AS
Right, so Sugar Beet was out. Okay. I was wondering.
RH
Rintaro laughs.
This is the-
long pause
Audio break 00:57:30
Think about myself, always, and he said,
Mr. Hayashi
, you're going to go sugar beet, because your family is too poor. So I send my family
to the (?).
AS
Was Mr. (Lister?) a B.C. security man?
RH
Yeah.
AS
Thought so.
RH
And before Mr. Eastwood was the manager, and Mr. Eastwood was gone and(Lister?) was-and
then he died in the
Tashme
.
AS
Right, right. Yes.
RH
And, he advise me go to the Hepburn Farm, and to the (?) Atlantic fishing (?). And
he want to show what is it-Canada is,
and stay in the western, thinking about war, and may in Japan we win the war, and
it is a dream. So you go see the war.
AS
He wanted you to move across Canada.
RH
Canada. And show how depressing in Canada, and show me.
Rintaro laughs.
AS
You wanted your family, your parents, with you, so, yeah.
RH
But after I decide to move here, oh, well then we cannot give you anymore job. If
you stay in the Ghost Town, you're living yourself.
Rintaro laughs.
AS
Were many people told that?
RH
I don't-but someone-no money, so...
AS
Right. Jobs in Ghost Town, they were hard to get?
RH
Oh yes, it's pretty hard I think, because
pause
AS
Pays bad too.
RH
No-family, yo know, that's the kind of poor family.
Rintaro chuckles.
And, no, no job.
AS
One man I talked to, he said that jobs were sort of given out to those who need it
most.
Is that the way you found it?
RH
What (?)?
AS
Well, this boy, he was only a boy then, he was about 15, his father was dead.
And he was the only support for his family. He said he always worked in camp,
because the Japanese association made sure he had a job, to support his family.
RH
Money, yeah.
AS
01:00:46.000
Because he needed it.
01:00:46.000
AS
Is-was need one thing that people considered before they assigned a job?
Like, when the commission would say when you could drive the truck, was need a factor
or was it luck or?
RH
Only learning job, or they cut food or something like that, it is-only that camp,
for that camp-
AS
Oh I see.
RH
Not for-so, not much job in the housing project.
AS
Right. Just growing your own garden.
At that time, the jobs open were farming, logging, or saw mill, but of course we can't
get into that during that time,
we can't get the license. Business license or the water. At that time we can't get
a fishing license, (?) fishing license at that time.
AS
Right, I know.
Carr Suzuki
told me sneaking the fish.
Rintaro laughs.
The only places open for logging, the saw mill or farming, that's all. Very restrictive.
So some would say real family-big families, they had to work (?).
Like me-well I went for the (?) at the start, for the self-support, my whole family,
well we gather that the family conquers (?).
And what tho decide, was apply for the sugar beets, but we've been restricted because
there's under age kids in my family at that time-
AS
Too many kids, yeah.
And we (?) mother-the chairman, like what we should decide, well mother said on the
second night said, You boys and girls are small kids,
so let's go to the self-support and go to same place as the family, like big family,
so that's what we did.
AS
Was there any trouble getting into self-support?
AS
Did you have to get a permit to go to self support? Or?
Yes, we have to work for the
RCMP
for that, and the big group was formed after big complaint from all the (?) the Japanese
people together in
Hastings Park
. We did it.
We have selected the south part, so we approached the RCMP so we get this special
permit, special (?) because we all (?) the south park,
so that night you have to look after your (?)
Recording device moves, making recording inaudible.
Evacuated so, they all-the majority of them depend on the government. They have to
look after (?) and all the evacuation. That's the difference.
AS
Yeah, well I-
Audio break 01:04:14
RH
That is-they-some people in the Ghost Town, they think about, the wives and women,
Japan. But, I don't think so. And, but, there may be people,
they move to the East, that means they give up Japan, and find out their own way.
AS
Right. You were in Kaslo for the survey? When they came around and said sign or go
East?
RH
Well yes, at that time, I said no. But after the war
Rintaro laughs
it's the only way for, you know, the whole family to leave or die. We go back to Japan,
nothing in Japan.
AS
Right. In
Lemon Creek
, there was much argument-
RH
Ah yes, yes.
RH
01:05:46.000
Same-Kaslo is many people
pause
01:05:46.000
RH
Is not-Japan is maybe lose the war. But in Lemon Creek it was different. Many people
say Japan will win after.
AS
I see.
RH
So, I didn't go back to the government.
Rintaro laughs.
AS
I see, I see. So, people, they were less-there was less hostility in Kaslo then in
Lemon Creek. I know Lemon Creek-
Audio break 01:06:30
RH
Still, they say, United State use atomic bomb, not be real, but I told them, if they
use poison gas, but if they use atomic bomb,
they have win the war. This is the fact.
AS
Yeah. Just to get it there.
RH
So, what is irregular, cannot think about the common sense
Rintaro laughs.
This was on the other day on National Geographics, Mr. Edward, come and ask me about
that. But, I agree that, government move Japanese from the coast,
because this is a war. So, that way, I don't like war.
Rintaro laughs.
But when the war is happening, they are right or this, which are two way they lost
war, they must die. So, this is a-I'm really glad that the government move us to the
(?) coast.
I agree with that, because if Japan is near (?) sky come down here, and bomb Seattle,
(?), Vancouver, Victoria...
AS
There would be trouble.
RH
Very big big trouble. For (?).
AS
Do you agree with them selling your property? And keeping you away so long?
RH
Well, in that time, there was almost-they don't like-the government don't like Japanese
people come back to the B.C. This way, they said oh, sold out Japanese property.
AS
Do you feel angry about that?
RH
Oh, I can
Rintaro laughs
I can (?), I cannot agree-
AS
At the time, at the time.
RH
Yeah, so we protest the letter to the government, but-
AS
Right, yeah okay. You joined the the Japanese Property Association with
Dr. Shimotakahara
?
RH
No.
AS
No?
RH
I didn't. In that time, the war's over, and in the (?), you go to Japan, why you go
East?
Rintaro laughs
You cannot stay here! So I go to the East. That's all.
AS
I see. This-the property association, they made that in 1943, when they learned that
property was to be sold.
And they tried to take a case to court. Do you know of that?
RH
Yeah, I know that, yeah.
AS
Do-did you know Dr. Shimotakahara?
RH
01:10:45.000
No I knew him, yeah. He's my good friend. He was one, he's going to university. He's
Japanese hospital, you know.
Cooking over there and working in Japanese hospital, study for university. And my
last girl-
01:10:45.000
RH
He was take care of my (?), his was in Kaslo.
AS
Oh, yes yes, I know. I knew-
RH
And my friend almost died in the hospital, it was injury in logging camp, and he died
in that time, I help
Dr. Shimotakahara
.
Audio break 01:11:20
In Kaslo, were you with Steveston people?
RH
Yes.
Kaslo
is
Steveston
, and the
New Westminster
is there, and (?), and some from
Vancouver
. Mostly Steveston is-(?).
So, that evacuation is we do it that, you know.
AS
So you stay with friends.
RH
Yes.
AS
And you can help each other.
RH
And last day is June the second.
AS
Did your family spend long in
Hastings Park
?
RH
No. Steveston people in Hastings, I don't like the-they send people to the Hastings
Park.
Last day is June the second, that day is (?). And, about 20... 20 to 30 people move
to Hastings Park.
That is last one from Steveston. And I-there's a time as you know, (?) company will
be watching. And he is long time working (?) and company.
So only he's remaining in the Steveston, and we are move out. And my brothers
pause
we are about 10 to 15 move June the second. That is the last of the Steveston.
AS
You moved to Vancouver. And then your family went right away?
RH
Yep, my family was before (?) they moved to the Kaslo.
AS
Ah, they had moved already in April then?
RH
Yeah, in April.
AS
And be near the first-yes. Did they leave directly from Steveston?
RH
Hm?
AS
Did they go straight from Steveston? Or did they go through Vancouver?
RH
Yes, train come from Steveston.
AS
Ah. So they didn't go to Hastings Park?
AS
I see. So you were able to avoid Hastings Park.
AS
Did you know anything about the
Nisei Mass Evacuation Group
?
RH
Well I know, yes, yes.
AS
Were you a member?
RH
01:15:45.000
Uchibori Shigeichi is my good friend. And still, the is one of the (Kajinkai?), naturalizations
association.
And mass evacuation group. They (?), Uchibori and Mr. Kinoshita, and other people
that were not good friendship.
And the other day, (?) Shinbun (Newspaper) write about Uchibori, and mass evacuation
is done by Uchibori,
01:15:45.000
RH
And, the government agree that he's away. And Mr. Kinoshita would say no is not to
(?), man was okay from the government,
and the family would go to the interior-
AS
Self support. Yeah, I-
RH
But this way, they say this is-we need this way, so you come this way. They say but
it is-both things not right.
It is after Midway. Midway is...
AS
June 6.
RH
Yeah. It's start June the 4, 5, and 6. And Japan lost four air transit carrier. And
they all move back to the west of(?), they didn't come to the-
AS
To the west coast.
RH
United States and Canada. So,
pause
the Canadian government everybody think about no more air raid from Japan. And you
see blackout is you know, that's 19-no, June the 15th, the blackout.
So they think about this-
AS
Why didn't they stop the evacuation then, then?
RH
No I don't know, but they think about no more air raid from Japan.
AS
Right. Okay.
RH
So don't need to hurry to the Japanese people from the (?) area, you see? This way,
they agree to the family move.
AS
I see.
RH
After, that's after July the fourth, the government. That case I thought the Shige
Uchibori when he was in Lemon Creek. I tell him, you know. This way, not-
AS
Right, ‘cause at this time they also-
RH
Yeah so he said you know
Rintaro's voice drops to a whisper
Oh yeah, that's right. When the mounted police (?), but after the July the fifteenth,
see him, and (?), and (?).
AS
I see, he was outlaw-(?)?
RH
(?). But, one day catch him, and send him to internment camp. But after June the fifteenth,
he don’t do that. So-no, after Midway.
No need hurry to Japanese send out from protected area.
AS
So they slow it down.
RH
So they low down. And after the July the fourth. This is why...
AS
01:20:44.000
Right. I had not realized that the blackout was lifted that early.
01:20:44.000
RH
Yeah. June the fifteenth. June the fifteenth, 1942 is the blackout gone.
AS
That is-
Audio break 01:20:49
RH
(?) meet the
Mountie
and (?) of the provincial (?). This two people call me and Mr. Sato, and talk about
pause
you should cooperate us, because maybe Japan will air raid-
AS
This was in April? They talked to you this way?
RH
Yeah, April in-yeah sometime in March I think, and-
Audio break 01:21:31
The United States, they do it, and Canada-
RH
Yeah copy the United States.
AS
There is a certain amount of that in it, yes-
Audio break 01:21:46
RH
United States is not separate from, but in Canada, they are being separated already,
and build house (?) and then send away.
But Canada cannot do that because not enough material. Not for the labour, and just
only interior housing. So, in that way,
families cannot send down there. So, the (?) of that (?) areas, move to the lower
camp.
AS
Yeah. They had-
Audio break 01:22:47
RH
Control the Japanese (?). But the mass evacuation group and the Naturalization Association,
they are against
Morii
. So,
Phone rings loudly in the background, drowning out Rintaro's voice.
AS
Yeah. I have read some documents about the
Commission
talking about Morii. And one reason they took him was they had used him before, and
they knew-they felt he could keep the community calm, but I gather-
RH
I'm not-the Morii’s people, you know. But in Steveston, Hashimoto is my relations,
and they to go with Morii, and doesn’t good leader in Morii people.
So, Hashimoto says you come in and help. But-I'm not Morii’s people you see.
AS
Right.
RH
And so I told Hashimoto if Sato and myself joining, (?). Hashimoto says you are end
up (?) the (Noguchi?). He'll be alright, but I said, No, no (?) for me.
So, I went to work with Sato. So agree and Sato and myself, joined the committee.
AS
In Steveston.
RH
In Steveston. So, our evacuation done by myself and Sato. So Hashimoto is went out
with (?) by (?) union station to the Squamish, and going to the...
AS
Right. So you have the problem of organizing, getting people packed and on trains.
RH
What is that?
AS
Your job? You and Mr. Sato, you organize.
RH
01:25:46.000
Yeah I organize and then I move to... from Steveson, and possibly, pick and possibly
pick to move from Steveston.
01:25:46.000
AS
I see.
RH
Because the (?) Steveston is a-
AS
Prime target, yeah.
RH
And (?) another one is Fraser River one but, you know. And maybe riot is... they come
to Steveston.
AS
Yeah, right. Yeah, well, since Steveston had experienced much hostility from White
fishermen, it would be a prime target.
It would be the first target.
RH
So, I think the-(?) is a positive.
AS
I see. When did the sugar beet people leave?
RH
You see-
AS
The beginning of May, end of April?
RH
No, no, I think it was April, I think.
AS
So you were the last to leave. You were among the last to leave Steveston.
RH
Yeah. June the second. And,
pause
(?), and Mister... Mission people come with him. Many people come-go to the sugar
beet. Alberta and Manitoba.
And Sato go Manitoba sugar beets, and he go and his father died after his evacuation,
and he come back, and told me, Mr. Hayashi, you should not come to Manitoba.
He told me because in Manitoba sugar beets is a pretty hard job.
AS
Yes, yes.
Audio break 01:28:09
RH
Mr. Aoki, the (?). His student is nice people in the, you know, Hirose or Kado...
Kaduguchi.-
AS
Where was Mr. Aoki's school?
RH
Before he was in
Cumberland
.
AS
He was in Cumberland.
RH
And then after Vancouver.
AS
Ah, yes-
RH
(?) day, you know.
AS
I know his son. I know Ted Aoki.
Audio break 01:28:52
Where are you from?
RH
He's a father and my father's cousin.
About the time during that pioneer days, a government project used to select the (?),
like for (?) hard to live in. Well
Mr. Hayashi
said
Shiga-ken
and
Wakayama
and
Hiroshima
. Those, especially wide areas in Shiga-ken very but at that time it's very forward
on connection. But after all, the largest rice field plot in the country,
and goes in Japan now. Because they put the water to flood it for the (?), they empty
it into the lake, just like a prairie when you go there-I went there months ago,
and see there with my own eyes, look at it, one in the city has been part of the lake.
But after (?), place in Japan, small country, small island, they put some soil in
there,
sand and soil, and makes great big cities...
Audio break 01:30:29
they've been part of the swamp like, you know.
AS
Well, I should note, Steveston is called what, America-mura (American Town)? So I
should have known you were from Mio.
RH
01:31:06.000
Oh yes, many of the Mio people from the Mio-mura since 1886 or '87.
Recording ends abruptly at 01:31:02
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Title
Rintaro Hayashi, interviewed by Ann Sunahara, 04 December 1977
Abstract
In this interview,
Rintaro Hayashi
talks about working as a fisherman along the West coast of
British Columbia
before the war, and his concerns of Japanese air raids. He talks about his time spent
in camps in
Kaslo
, B.C. and the establishment of a farm used by his family. He talks about his time
working as a farmer, and moving from province to province. Rintaro talks about separating
from his family when they had to be evacuated because of his job,
and his frustrations with the Canadian Navy, who impounded his boat. Throughout the
interview, Rintaro expresses his frustrations with the
Canadian government
and his struggles with money. Rintaro talks about signing day, and how he felt it
made sense for Japanese Canadians to move East because it would move them away from
the West coast, away from possible air raids and bombings from
Japan
.
(This oral history is from the
NNMCC
's Sunahara Collection. Accession No. 2018-16-1-70-27)
Credits
Interviewer: Ann Sunahara
Interviewee: Rintaro
Interviewee: Unidentified Voice
Transcriber: Emma Sjerven
Audio Checker: Sakura Taji
XML Encoder: Sakura Taji
Publication Information: See Terms of Use for publication and licensing information.
Setting:
Richmond, B.C., Canada
Terminology
Readers of these historical materials will encounter derogatory references to Japanese
Canadians and euphemisms used to obscure the intent and impacts of the internment
and dispossession. While these are important realities of the history, the Landscapes
of Injustice Research Collective urges users to carefully consider their own terminological
choices in writing and speaking about this topic today as we confront past injustice.
See our statement on terminology, and related sources here.