Joyce Harumi Kamikura, interviewed by Tatsuo Kage, 13 August 1992

Abstract

Joyce Kamikura was born in Steveston , British Columbia and resided in Deep Bay in Vancouver Island . A daughter to a fisherman and an older sister to two girls, both of Joyce’s parents have extended family in Canada , with her maternal grandparents having lived in Haney . In this interview, Joyce says she felt torn between being considered Japanese or Canadian, saying she cannot relate herself to being a Japanese Canadian. She recalls feeling displaced in the Japanese Canadian community because she was born in Canada. Joyce emphasizes the importance of heritage and of preserving Japanese tradition and history, and understanding the significance of where she comes from because she was not taught about Japanese history when she was living in Japan . Joyce talks about Japanese history being taught in a Westernized way, and describes how Western religions are being adopted by Japanese people. She describes how she feels that Japanese people are proud, and ponders the beginning of a “new Japan” for the younger generation with a new emperor in power.

This oral history is from the Nikkei National Museum and Cultural Centre's Kage Collection. Accession No. 2021-7-1-1-3. It describes the experience of exile.

00:00:00.000

Tatsuo Kage (TK)

I have a list of questions, this is, a, I made it for other people, but I have a number of questions to cover. Tatsuo’s tone of voice gets higher. In your case, not all are applicable because you were fairly young when you were interned and moved. But first I’d like to have your general background. Some I got from the newspaper article but shuffles papers some information may not be quite accurate. So, first, it’s not so polite to ask age but since you mentioned in your...

Joyce Harumi Kamikura (JK)

Joyce interjects No.

Laughs. Information in your article.

Laughs. I just turned fifty. Laughs again.

Ah, do you-

My birthdate is, January 6th ‘42. Long pause.

Oh, so like, after Pearl Harbour you were born?

Yes.

And do you know the Kamikura’s kanji? papers shuffling.

Yes. Where?

Oh where?

Kura...

Like this? Tatsuo shows Joyce something.

That’s right.

Okay. Long pause. You have a middle name, H is it?

Harumi.

Oh.

Joyce describes what kanji is used for her middle name, Harumi （春美） Harumi is spring, 春. Door shuts.

美しい？(The mi part of Harumi is written with the character meaning beautiful.)

美しい, yeah.

Unknown (U)

Speaking to Joyce. Did Jen give a message that she’s not coming?

No.

Are you sure?

Is it, were you born in Steveston , or-

Yes I was born in Steveston, that wasn’t my home though.

Oh, so home was-

My home was Deep Bay on Vancouver Island .

Oh, so how does it happen?

Well, it was the rumour of the war breaking out, and my parents, my mother came to Steveston .

Oh, I see.

Just for my birth, and then she couldn’t go back to the island after I was born Tatsuo hums in agreement. because of the evacuation order by that time.

Yeah, I see, yeah.

And those days when you delivered a baby, you stayed in the hospital for a month or so. An unknown female voice talks loudly on the phone in the background.

Oh, it’s that long.

That long.

So, in Steveston there was a hospital or?

Yes, a Japanese hospital.

Long pause, Tatsuo mutters to himself. Door shuts again. And your father was a fisherman?

Yes, he was a fisherman.

Long pause. Ah, let’s see. You have brothers and sisters?

Two sisters. Tatsuo hums in agreement. Two younger ones.

Brothers?

No.

Long pause. Do you have other relatives in Canada now, or?

Yes, many relatives.

Okay, you-right cause now your parents are in Canada.

They’re in Canada. Pause. One of my sisters is in Canada Long pause. and then I got my mother’s, all her family live in Canada. A part of my father’s family lives in Canada.

Long pause, Tatsuo taking notes. Okay, that’s enough. And, of course you’re born in Canada, so Tatsuo muttering to himself taking notes. So you, soon after this you went to Lemon Creek right?

Apparently that time my mother’s parents used to live in Haney .

Oh, I see.

People that lived in Haney didn’t have to evacuate immediately as long as you don’t go back to the island, so she lived with her parents and then eventually I think they all had to go to Hastings Park .

Oh, yeah.

Later on.

Tatsuo repeats what Joyce has just said to himself while writing notes. But then, on the same year...

Then to Lemon Creek . Long pause.

So at that time you have, your parents and younger sisters weren’t born yet?

In a corrective tone. No.

So you are just only child then with your parents?

That’s right.

00:05:03.000

Chair moves in the background; long pause. The people that have the same type of history, I feel either are very very attached to Japan , attached to Canada , but not as a Japanese Canadian group. Either Japanese or Canadian.

Oh, so that means that I couldn’t quite get there. That you are thinking, you’re a-

I was a part of the whole Japanese community but, and also I’m a Canadian.

Yeah, right.

And Canada as a whole group, group of Canadians. But I can’t relate myself to Japanese Canadians because my experience as a Japanese Canadian in so small, so little.

Oh, I see okay. So you, in that way that you are feeling maybe senior to those who came from Japan.

I think so, yeah. Tatsuo hums in agreement. I’m probably a Japanese I’m probably a Canadian (Tatsuo hums in agreement.) but I’m not so sure as a part of the Japanese Canadian group.

Oh, yes. Well, this is again, for some people, it’s very political thing without forming the Japanese Canadian group and make a clear position of statement, you can’t go anywhere. That is the idea behind the Japanese Canadian organizations. I think historically too, because Japanese Canadian organizations could be traced back to pre-war times when they (?) franchise (?) franchise right? Joyce hums in agreement. So that’s, some of the root of Japanese Canadian organization. So that’s where the redress movement came.

Mhm. And I really appreciate all, what all these people have done.

Now, we lost the clear target. Redress was very good... or purpose to get people together, work together. Now is a time to explore, and I think the wind is changing like the most Sanseis become adults and (?) much like me, but (?) thing to explore.

If I could take part in any, in any Japanese function that I could feel at home, I could feel a part of it. I would like to do that but so far I feel-I really feel out of place like Homecoming Tatsuo hums in agreement what do I know about those days? Is that really homecoming for me, and I really don’t know other people either.

Well but I, in a way I am similar because I am post-war immigrant, so I, through my involvement with the community I got to know lots of Nisei and Sansei but basically I’m quite different from them. But I would go, so I think I’m interested in the history. Also as a immigrant living in Canada I have to find my, where I’m standing, and so I-

00:10:03.000

Joyce interjects and asks Tatsuo a question. Was it difficult for you to, sort of, have a, not a position but your place-

Tatsuo finishes Joyce’s question. Place in society right? Well okay, I think in a way yes, because lot of people are satisfied probably if you have a stable job so you are able to conduct most of your time and you have a stable nice family. That’s probably what most people are satisfied with. In my case, I always heard that I should be some, I should play some role beyond my own professional work or family in the family life something beyond that, and-

Joyce interjects her thoughts. There’s an artist in you.

Oh it’s not artistic thing...

No the, literally, literal art, not fine art.

Okay, but you see, my thing I have been doing, but writing itself is not really artistic or creative.

In a surprised tone. It is creative! It’s one of the most creative things! Tatsuo tries to interject his point. I can’t, I can’t write.

No no but I’m, I’m not talking about fictions. I have to-

Still it’s creative.

Oh yeah in a way yes.

You write well. Vivian , my daughter, is an English Lit major and she graduated last year and she is getting her-another degree just this month, yeah. And she and I were reading your article and we were just amazed how good you are in writing.

Oh thanks. Tatsuo giggles at the compliment. That’s a big compliment because I am still struggling writing in English.

So am I. Both laugh.

Well-

Joyce asks another question. So you don’t feel your, you have a comfortable position in this society as a Japanese immigrant? Do you feel you’re Canadian or do you feel you’re Japanese?

Well, it’s still you know immigrants is always half way.

Especially in this multicultural society it is.

Yeah well even though you say that you are Canadian, that’s something-

Hyphenated.

Yeah, or your heritage or your background is so strong in the Japanese side, because your language, your thinking, behaviour, friends, it’s all connected to Japan, so even though you live here about 10, 20 years, still you-your roots are there and, you take citizenship and you think that you die this country but still, you are not hundred percent Canadian. That is my feeling.

Oh is that right?

Yeah. Long pause.

I could see your point of view I feel I’m a hundred percent Canadian but if I go back to Japan I feel I’m, partial-partially Japanese.

Well I think what, it’s quite fortunate that Canada is a tolerant country. So even though that’s partially Canadian, you can get by very easily. Joyce hums in agreement. So that, in that way I think it’s much better than Japan . In Japan they-

No tolerance for Japanese there that- Joyce laughs that can’t speak Japanese.

00:15:05.000

Yeah that’s right. And even there’s people who speak Japanese perfectly and look almost like Japanese but, like Koreans or Chinese, have a hard time. Like Nisei or Sansei, you know, that generation, Koreans, still have a hard time getting citizenship.

Joyce hums in agreement. That’s what I understand.

So that’s a really tough one. And if you don’t have citizenship then you can’t get certain jobs.

Yeah if you, you know, as I said when I was attending schools in Japan we had no formal history training, Japanese history training, so all the things I learned, all the history of Japan I learned is through here. I borrowed every library book there is on Japanese history. I really think you start to understand who you are because of that history. When you talk about Japanese being intolerant about other people trying to get their citizenship, I start to understand their thinking too, because of their history. Such an isolated nation, Tatsuo hums in agreement undefeated, uncaptured by anyone except the states during the war, they built such a solid, solid ground in their thinking. I start to empathize with their thinking, and it’s unfortunate that they don’t teach history in Japan, I understand they do now.

Tatsuo hums in agreement. Yeah I think, let’s see if you went, to school until age fourteen, Joyce hums in agreement yeah I’m sure you, oh yeah but post-war period-

No, even old history they didn’t.

Yeah because you see, whole history had to be reviewed and there’s a lot of confusion, like after the war. And yeah I’m a bit older than you so I remember it when, right after the war there’s a textbook which has a lot of nationalistic writing and history and-

Joyce interjects her thoughts In terms of introducing Shinto religion, yeah I could see that but not when it comes to the (?) from twelfth century to sixteenth-seventeenth century, there’s hardly any of that, Japan was-

Well but you see-

There’s not a whole nation, you know there are separate-

Tatsuo hums in agreement. But I think statement of strong nationalism and a emphasis on Emperor system, those kind of likings were criticized by the Americans-

Joyce hums in agreement. So that’s going back to Shintoism, at the beginning of Japan towards the more recent history but in the middle, rich rich history of Japan where how Japan was united all that- we didn’t learn that. I learned that from my grandmother, ‘such and such came to this, you know, shore and Taira was defeated’, you know, all these things I learned that from my grandmother I still remember when I read history books now I can relate to that.

Yeah I think that part was (weak?) after the war. And that a strong fights, ideological fights going on even now how to teach history because-

Joyce interjects and asks a question This is recent history or?

Oh it’s a whole history, actually. But especially recent history and how to describe the Japanese colonized Korea. That was hundred years ago right, and actually the Second World War was quite controversial.

00:19:58.000

I could see that because we’ve been, we’ve been sort of inundated with American version of recent history. As for the beginning of Japan, that’s no different from the Bible, Adam and Eve...

Tatsuo hums in agreement But you see that part too, how the older history is to legitimize the Imperial system. Joyce hums in agreement. So talking about Amaterasu Omikami and so on.

Yeah and grandson descended, and that was the beginning of the Imperial system.

That’s a mix of not real facts right? So there's a mixup. (?) it, that's a good heritage, but that was written as a history, that means that they are-that actually happened.

Yeah, but I think we're getting Westernized when we translate the whole thing into terms of kami (god), we think of it in terms of God, don't we? Tatsuo agrees Yeah, in Japan, I remember my Grandmother talking about 神さん (god). 神さんcould be anything, from sky to wind to tree to anything. When you think of it in that term, Amaterasu and the Imperial system is not the same divinity as Western sense of divinity, is it?

Tatsuo hums as he thinks. That, probably not.

Only because we start to think of 神 as God, and God, what is God? Western thinking.

Yeah, I think it, of course it's quite different from Christian idea of God, because in Japan, I think especially in Shinto, it's a spirit a god is everywhere Joyce hums in agreement. So, like-

It's such a unique, unique history that only Japan could offer, and it's such a shame that part isn't taught.

Tatsuo hums in agreement. Well-

Yet I remember these things really well because of my Grandmother's teaching.

Oh I see, yeah, right. Yeah I think people bow and pray for their-when the sun is rising, you know, that kinds of things? Joyce agrees. That is quite different because idea of god must be everywhere, that is very strong in traditional Japanese.

And it's so unique in entire Asian countries. That's what makes Japan different.

Tatsuo hums in agreement. So do you-do you still have any influence of that kind of ideas.

I think so.

Yeah I notice that lot of Japanese Canadians that lived all the way through here, they are more Christian, whether they are going to the church there or not but, you know, idea seems to be more Christian-

Western idea.

Yeah, right. I think, and even Buddhism here has transformed more Western style because they call it church, right? But in Japan they never call it- temple than church, so they adapted to style of Christian church, I guess.

Joyce hums in agreement. And the concept of being able to combine religions like the way we did in Japan, it's so unique too. There's no conflict until Christianity came in, and the Bible said, Thou shalt be no other God before me. And that ended the whole thing. But there was the idea of combining religions too.

00:25:06.000

Yeah, (collected?) ideas.

That's very Japanese too, these things have a, the type of things that should be taught to Japanese people. And what we should appreciate too here is Japanese, that heritage.

Well, (?) that may be unpopular here because already there are many churches and they want to keep their own territories.

That's right-

Tatsuo laughs as he speaks. If you still think about the, oh there's no borders and (?) Joyce laughs together and so on, maybe (?).

Yeah.

Yeah but I think that's very good-good idea to explore that culture heritage in that angle. I think that people might see that there's always heritage from different point of view. Joyce hums in agreement. Cause you see here-

Joyce interjects her point. And it's so different from any other heritage, any other nationalities, it's so uniquely Japanese.

Native Indians have a little similar ideas I think. Like Totem, it's quite different idea of their ancestor, kind of story that come from eagles and bears and so on. I think Totem idea, is it has a spirit right? Like also seems to have a lot of gods around-

And every nation seems to have their own version of how their nation was born too, which is interesting.

Yeah, right.

You know, when you live in Japan, all these things become a part of your lifestyle without really realizing where it came from, without really realizing why you're doing it. I remember Obon-during Obon time you put that bamboo thing on the river? Watch it drift away? Joyce indirectly asks Tatsuo if he knows what she is talking about.

Yeah, right.

That sort of thing. You know, we used to do it but not really realizing what we're doing. I remember Grandmother telling me this is meeting dead people-living meeting dead, but then you don't know why or you don't know the background behind it. Only through English version of Japanese history I learned why, and I-really feel richer for having experienced all these things in Japan.

Oh that's interesting because probably my-some of my kids growed up in Japan and my third daughter was grade 3. She remembers a lot of things.

Does she know why she did it or the history behind it or?

No, not really-

That's what makes it interesting, that's what makes it realize why you think the way you do.

Yeah, yeah but the strange thing about that daughter who's in drums, had recently some performance with (?), have you ever heard of him?

Yeah.

At the festival. And she did a little bit of (?) also. Chanting Sutra-

Joyce hums in an interested tone Oh.

And we didn't know she was doing that. But anyway, that was taught by my mother-her Grandmother. She's lived next door so when kids were small, it's always been... and Sutra, doen’t make any sense because you don’t understand. Like Latin right, it was? Joyce hums in agreement to Tatsuo's question. But she remembered before, fifteen years later, so.

Ah, that's amazing.

She used to (?) for part of her performance.

00:30:00.000

Does she appreciate having lived in Japan?

Oh yeah, I think all our children appreciate. They, I think they don't say so really, but since they are involved with the Japanese Canadian community (?) all our children learn Japanese language and some learn martial arts, things like that. So I think they are interested, and we didn't nearly, explicitly encourage them to do that but we always talked about it and and we have always doing things together. And we try to not give any negative image-

Joyce interjects her thoughts. Of Japan.

Japan. Or even about Canadians as well. So I think that must have a very good imprint because since I am a teacher, I know that-

Were you a teacher in Japan?

Yeah.

Oh were you!

Teaching things can lead to something different than the (?) educational (?) rather than showing what you do that kids do, so.

Joyce hums in agreement. You were talking about Koreans and other nationalities having a hard time getting citizenship. My daughter criticizes Japanese for being some of the worst discriminating people in the world, and that's probably true. But, when I mention to my cousin from Japan-my cousin is semi, my family history, he's a very modern Japanese even though he's only a year older than me. When I told him that if you really understand how Japan started that our history and how isolated Japan was, you really understand why Japanese want to have their solid sort of purity sort of thing. And he was totally against that kind of idea, That's an old kind of thinking. You shouldn’t think like that! Both Joyce and Tatsuo laugh.

Is that right?

Joyce laughs. Yeah.

Yeah I think-

Even you know the things like Dejima was created in order to purify Japan from the rest of the world? I could see, I could understand that-now I understand that because of what made Japan what made the beginning of Japan.

Tatsuo hums in agreement. Well of course it’s old days they could've done that. But nowadays... Long pause. I don't know how to resolve that, only exposure I think for the-

International pressure.

Yeah, I think even I was (?) open-minded and (?) so when I was in Japan, after I came here I realized how much bias I had, being brought up in Japan. It's kind of a struggle to overcome those biases. Yeah but-

I think that's probably because of our very proud people. Very proud after we got defeated. There is no history to really show that we're-we're second to any other nation until the World War.

But most people are proud, aren’t they? In their own way. Tatsuo clears throat. Canadians-

Other nationalities? Not as proud as Japanese I don't think, Japanese don't say it. But I know they feel it. Both Joyce and Tatsuo laugh.

I see. Yeah.

00:35:01.000

Japanese have a habit of not saying it but they-

Oh yeah, right.

Some ways they express their feelings.

Well that's-to be proud is nothing wrong and I think it's fine but-if that becomes negatively superimposed to other people, other cultures...

That's right, like a prime minister that inadvertently said that Japanese have a little- what did he say? He said compared to other nationalities Japanese are a little smarter or have a- IQ is a little higher.

Well yeah something like that, I think-

Yeah I thought it was, I thought it was really typical of the Japanese except that nobody says it. Joyce giggles.

Tatsuo refers back to the statement made by the prime minister which Joyce was trying to remember earlier. I think American workers are lazy and Black people are IQ is lower, things like that. Yeah those-

Joyce giggles. That's unfortunate.

Well but probably they think that way, that's why they- Conversation is temporarily drowned out by an airplane overhead. So anyway I shouldn't take too much time of yours.

Oh well I enjoyed talking with you. Tatsuo gathers his papers.

Yeah I think in between- Recording device temporarily cuts out at 00:36:31

A little too extreme but- Both Joyce and Tatsuo laugh.

Yeah he seems to be very, long pause how should I say, he's very very smart guy and also he's totally familiar with Western culture. Still he-

Joyce hums in agreement. And Japanese.

But still he's quite so involved in traditional idea and thinking so, in a way he's quite unique. But something went wrong. Tatsuo laughs.

Yeah. With this new emperor's reign, I think Japan is probably-it's probably the beginning of new Japan isn't it? Tatsuo hums while pondering the question. Mishima's idea is completely, probably forgotten.

Well, probably. It's hard to say. When I went back a few months ago, I noticed that all things-not very tangible things but people thinking (?) still were maintained even though-

Older generation?

No, not my generation, my-my sister's, brother's sister's. I think peer pressure very is strong so they conform to the way other people do think, so I think so that way that old things or traditional things are maintained. On surface, so many changes took place and everything is modernized and (?). Yeah, it's more actually Japan probably most prosperous country in the world now, right? But still I think old things, I think-

That's the way with younger generations.

Well that's, again it's hard to see what happens in next ten, twenty years.

And that will be the same as Japanese Canadians here too, wouldn't it?

Right. There's always two factors that whether that remains old fashioned or get something new or to attain some new level of things, that's hard to say. Like Japan became an economic superpower now and that is a big achievement. Now, whether that’s a Japanese ideology or attitude towards other countries. It can be adjusted to that level or not is a big challenge. It doesn't happen so quickly.

00:40:00.000

That's right.

So that is, I think, big challenge for Japanese young people-

Even a hundred years is not enough. I remember my Grandmother saying Bakufu all the time. Joyce and Tatsuo both giggle. She was still saying Bakufu.

Oh is that right? Oh wow. Joyce continues laughing. So that's, people's mind I think it was still quite strong.

Yeah.

Okay, I think I shouldn't take too much time.

00:40:44.000

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Title

Joyce Harumi Kamikura, interviewed by Tatsuo Kage, 13 August 1992

Abstract

This oral history is from the Nikkei National Museum and Cultural Centre's Kage Collection. Accession No. 2021-7-1-1-3. It describes the experience of exile.

Credits

Interviewer: Tatsuo Kage

Interviewee: Joyce Harumi Kamikura

Transcriber: Emma Sjerven

Audio Checker: Sakura Taji

XML Encoder: Sakura Taji

Publication Information: See Terms of Use for publication and licensing information.

Setting: Canada

Terminology

Readers of these historical materials will encounter derogatory references to Japanese Canadians and euphemisms used to obscure the intent and impacts of the internment and dispossession. While these are important realities of the history, the Landscapes of Injustice Research Collective urges users to carefully consider their own terminological choices in writing and speaking about this topic today as we confront past injustice. See our statement on terminology, and related sources here.