Keiko Mary Kitagawa, interviewed by Rebeca Salas, 17 June 2017

This Rebeca Salas, I'm here with Mary Kitagawa, at her home, in Tsawwassen, on June 17, 2017. And we're here to do an interview for the Landscapes of Injustice project. So as we discussed, I think um, starting from the beginning is easiest. And so, maybe we can start with, where you were born, and where your family lived before the war.

Okay. My name is Mary Kitagawa, um, I have a Japanese name, Keiko, which is my first name, but usually I'm called Mary. I was born on Salt Spring Island. My parents were Katsuyori and Kimiko Murakami. And my grandparents were Kumanosuke and Riyo Okano. My grandfather came to Canada in, 1896, so I think this year, we have been in Canada for 121 years. We. . . my grandparents initially, were fishermen. And my mother was the first Japanese Canadian baby born, in Steveston. And, uh, they fished, until. . . 1919 and early 1920, when they moved to Salt Spring Island. And, my mother met my father in Japan. When she and her younger sister went to celebrate her grandmother's. . . eighty-eighth birthday I think, I think that was a special day for all Japanese people. And. . . she met my father there. Now, my father, comes from a very, uh, privileged family. His father's lineage started from the seventh son of the sixty-second emperor of Japan. The son's name was Nariaki. And the emperor's name was Emperor Murakami. And. . . my father came to Canada in 1926, after the marriage. And. . . he came from a very wealthy family, so, my grandfather - or actually. Yes. His father was, had never worked in a day of his life. And he just, went and made sure that the workers that he, hired were doing their job. So, anyway when my father came to Canada, he didn't know, what end of the hammer it was. Because he didn't have to do anything, in Japan. And so, he was a fast learner. It was amazing, what he learned. How to do. From, from fishing, to, building homes. And so. . . with my mother, he built this pristine seventeen-acre farm, across the road from my grandparents. My grandparents owned 200 acres. Which consisted of. . . pris-virgin forest. And a, lush valley where they farmed. And then they had a waterfront too. And they lived in this two-storey building filled with. . . antique. Furniture. Mostly oak. And they had the, the latest appliances in the kitchen area. And they hired, what they did was they um, hired young men from Japan. I think they were called. . . not indentured but. . . I can't really, the word doesn't come to me right now, but, they had to work for the person who sponsored them? For at least three years, and then they were free, to either leave Canada or apply for citizenship.

Now, on our farm, my father built all the, all the buildings, including our home. And, actually it was quite, a forested area so my father, had to cut the trees down, they were huge trees, mostly cedar, and then he had to use dynamite, to blow up the stump. And that way, clear the land. So, it was a really, you know, difficult, job to create a farm at that time. Because there were no, bulldozers and heavy equipment. So, that was an amazing feat, I would say. And then, within the nine years that they had worked, until 194. . . 1, they had created a really thriving business. They had - their crop consisted of strawberries, loganberries, raspberries, and different vegetables. And they had 5000 chickens. And, each chicken house that my father built, there were a thousand chickens. And then he had another chicken house where, my mother used to. . . have a, you know, she used an incubator to hatch the chickens? The chicks? And so. . . they were self sufficient. My mother was a really good cook so we always ate organic foods, beautifully prepared. And the children, I had - I have, three sisters, so there were four girls in our family, and I had a, a young brother, in 1942 he was only one year old. Later on, in the prison camp, my youngest brother was born, so there were six, in total, in the end. But . . . the children, really had an ideal, childhood. Because, we were, you know we were, free to roam, we had parents who really looked after us, we had grandparents to look after us, and, we interacted with. . . The only time we really interacted with the. . . children of our age was at school. And mostly we, you know, played amongst ourselves. Because, it was quite far to go to another person's house. So anyway. When they started to produce their, crop after my father cleared the land, the Empress Hotel, kept asking, for their produce. Like, strawberries especially. And when the King and Queen of England came, it was my parent's strawberries that were served to them. And then later on, I don't know if it was Prince Phil- um, Prince Charles and Diana that came, they asked for their strawberries again. So. . . that was later on, of course. After we moved back to Salt Spring. But then. . . our ideal life. . . collapsed. In 1941 when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. On that day, my father had come back from the hospital, after having his appendix removed. And when he heard, for instance. . . the news, hit my older sister who was only thirteen at that time, because she always was listening to these soapies on radio, and all of a sudden she hears this, breaking news that Japan had bombed Pearl Harbor. And, my mother said, “are you sure? Are you sure?” But um, when my father found out, that Japan had bombed Pearl Harbor, the first thing he said was, “stupid.” You know, how can a tiny. . . country like Japan attack a powerful country like America and expect to win? So he was really angry, and disappointed.

When he was growing up. . . he was conscripted at the age of eighteen, to train in the military. And he had a terrible, terrible experience. Where the commanders were cruel. So he hated the Japanese military. And so when, the war began, he hated them more. So, anyway. . . he said, nothing could happen. . . nothing good will happen from this day on for Japanese Canadians. He just felt that right away. And, of course, that turned out to be quite true. So, we waited for something to happen. And. . . on, I think. . . early January, you know everybody was on pins and needles. Nothing was happening, you know, it was just. . . what's going to happen to us? That was, the conversation. There were seventy-seven Japanese Canadians living on Salt Spring Island at that time. Most, most of - most of them were children, born on Salt Spring Island or somewhere in British Columbia. And a lot of the people didn't have telephones at that time. So, you know, there was a lot of movement, you know, visiting, talking about this. And. . . when we first heard, about what was going to happen to us, was from the Custodian – actually, I guess he was the AGENT of the Custodian of Enemy Alien property. His name was Gavin Mouat. And ironically, my grandparents and my parents had helped Gavin, you know when he was growing up. Because I think they needed help for, financial help. And when he came, he came with a piece of paper. And it was a document that said. . . blah blah blah in trust. And, so. . . because my mother knew Gavin, and trusted him, because she had known him, all his life. . . and when he said. . . he put his arm around my mother and said, “Kimi. . . when you come back, not one chopstick will be missing from your home.” And so, she trusted him enough, and my father and mother signed the paper. And then, later on, he came. And told us that our father would be taken away from us. That he was going to separate my father from our family. And we dreaded that. Because, we didn't know what that meant. You know, was he going to be taken from us forever? Was he going to be. . . killed? We didn't know.

So, on Decem- March the 17th Saint Patrick's Day. . . an RCMP came. . . roaring in through our property on a pickup truck. And at that time. . . we were prepared, because Gavin had told us that. . . we should be prepared to have my father taken away. So when the RCMP came. . . my father, lined us all up in our living room, in order of our birth, and Pause. tap - you know, tapped us all on our head and said to my mum. . . and the children. . . “now be strong, I'll be back soon.” And, told us children. . . to be good to mum, and to help as much as we could. And then he went out and we followed him. And as he approached the truck Pause. the RCMP officer told him to hurry up. And then, as my father was getting into the, truck, the RCMP officer shoved him on and, and my father fell on his stomach and, and also hit his face on the, the flatbed of the truck. But my father jumped right up. To reassure us that he was fine. And he kept smiling and saying, “I, I'm okay, I'm okay.” And then, we- we had to load, you know, what little, amount of belongings he was allowed to take? And we pushed it on to the back of the truck. And then he. . . well actually my, sister asked the RCMP officer, if my father could ride in the passenger seat of the, truck. But the RCMP officer said, “No.” And so, as. . . as he, my father was being driven. . . out of our property, the RCMP officer jerked the gears in the truck and my father almost fell again. And as he was driving away. . . the girls, the four of us, ran after the truck, you know, crying and waving, and saying. . . “Daddy, Daddy, come back.” And as he was driven away and he disappeared. . . into a void. But in my. . . seven-year-old mind, mind, as my father was being, taken, onto the truck, I saw the gun, in the holster of the RCMP officer, and. . . I thought for sure, that he was being - because of the way that he was being, manhandled, I thought for sure that my father was, being taken away to be shot. And it was a terrifying, terrifying time. So we all ran back, to my mother. . . my mother was still standing where, she was, holding onto my one-year-old brother. And I. . . I feel that. . . at that time, every cell in my mother's body must be, must have been exploding with pain. And, we all ran back to her and clung to her. But she, did not cry or anything, she just stayed very strong for us. And she led us back into the house. And she. . . tried to make each day as normal as possible. Well fortunately, my thirteen-year-old sister was so mature beyond her age. And so she took the role. . . of my father. And she. . . did a lot of the tasks that my father did. Like feeding the chicken and, collecting the eggs, and. Doing all the physical things. And she was also a great help to my mother. By. . . sewing these. . . bags that we were supposed to stuff our belongings into? And then. . . judging from what my sister had written, you know my mother was always, every day she was so tired. Because she was doing double duty.

And. . . anyway. It was. . . and then Gavin came one day and told my mother that she had to get rid of the chickens. And somehow, the Chinese people, in Victoria heard that the chickens had to be. . . sold, from our farm. And so, they came, and they tried to buy the chickens, at a very low price. But these were the chickens at the prime of their egg-laying period. And these were the chickens that my mother hatched, with her incubator. And so, she was very very attached to these chickens. And then. . . my mother was a really good business person. She had a business head. So she negotiated a much higher price. But it broke her heart as these, chickens were tied, you know the legs together and thrown on the back of these trucks. And she asked the, these Chinese people to leave, about a dozen, because we needed to eat something, right. And we needed eggs too. So they did leave some. And apparently when, they got back to Victoria, thousands of eggs were in the truck, because the hens had laid them. And then after that. . . we were told that we had to leave the island. All the people on the island had to leave on April the 21st. But. . . I'd like to relate, how it felt that day. . . normally, our farm would have been full of sounds. The chickens, our dog. . . our horse. And, all the people working there. You know, it was full of life. And, on that day, when we were leaving, as we left our house. . . was silence. It was this eerie silence. Of ominous, future. And then, as we were getting into this car of a friend that came to pick us up to take us to the, to the boat? The Princess Mary. My oldest sister noticed, that our dog that we had given away was under one of the steps. And she had given birth to these puppies. And, she and I ran over there, trying to. . . well I mean, she had nothing to eat, right? Because she had escaped from the people that we had given the dog to. But this, this friend, Mervin Gardiner, who was taking us to the boat. . . said “don't worry,” he said, “I'll take the dogs home. And I'll look after them.” So that gave us a bit of, peace. That our dog. . . I think her name was Mune, because she had a white, uh, white spot on her, chest, and Mune means, chest or breast. And so, we were taken to the wharf in Ganges, on Salt Spring Island. And, there was just a pile of suitcases and bags. Because the children were allowed only. . . one suitcase each. With. . . I think it was only, fifty pounds we were - no no, seventy-five pounds, I think we were allowed. And mother was allowed. . . to suitcases, about, so that's 150 pounds. Of belongings. And when we got to the, to the dock, all the other people from the island were there. And we. . . but, you know the people on the island, were not there to say goodbye to us. Uh, there were a few who were there, staring at us. But no one said anything to us.

So, as we were being loaded onto this ship, it was quite a large ship. I think it was a two- or three-funnel ship so it was quite a large one. My grandfather was in a state of shock. He really didn't know, what was happening to him. And so, when we got onto the ship, my mother had to buy him, one of these rooms on the ship so that he could lay down? And, when we got to Mayne Island, Mr. Iwasaki, who had the largest amount of land, 640 acres, three miles of waterfront, today it's the most sought-after piece of land on Salt Spring Island. And, he, he - ran off the boat. He said, I'm not going anywhere. I have a home. I have a place that is my home. And I'm not going with you. So the RCMP who seemed to be with us forever. . . wherever we went, there was an RCMP officer accompanying us. He talked Mr. Iwasaki to come back onto the ship. And then we were taken to Vancouver. When we reached Vancouver it was getting dark. . . and then, I don't remember exactly how they took us to Hastings Park, but I have a feeling it was, one of the old buses. And, we had to, my mother registered us, to say that we had arrived, and then we were told to, go to the barn. And my mother was shocked because, when we lived on Salt Spring, because I was an asthmatic child, our house was always spotless. And then to be asked to live in a barn, was - you know, unacceptable to her. Because she was thinking, that, you know, if there was enough dust there, that I would get my asthma, and I would die. So anyway. Reluctantly, we all walked in, to this barn. We were all dressed up. We shined our shoes before we left, so. And as we walked in, we could smell the urine and feces of the barn. And we could feel the straw still, on the floor and it would crunch under our newly polished shoes. And my mother was assigned. . . I think there were, uh, let's see. . . there were five of us, so. . . I think we were assigned four bunk beds. And, as we entered, we could hear. . . some of the elderly women crying, and sobbing. Pause. and. . . they weren't, I think we were one of the first to arrive there, so. They weren't really, ready for us. Because, they were still filling those, ticking bags with, straw. And, they gave us two army blankets, and there were no pillows. And a lot of the women - this is the area where just women and children were allowed. And the children had to be under the age of twelve. The men, and the children, were housed in the Forum. Separately from the women. Now, that evening, you know we were all hungry, but we were not fed. And luckily for my mother, she. . . I don't know why, she put a pound of butter in one of her suitcases. And so, my brother. . . you know, licked on this butter, to keep him from being hungry. So we were not fed until the morning, when we were led to the poultry section of the barn. And there, there were rows and rows of this roughly hewn table and benches. And we were given these tin cups and tin, dish - plates? And we went and lined up to get our food. But, as soon as my mother saw what was being put on those plates. . . you know, she knew that we wouldn't be able to eat it. Because, we were. . . accustomed to eat the best of foods, and what was on our plate, was slop, really. And I remember these big bowls of. . . stewed prunes? I don't know why they wanted to give us stewed prunes because that causes diarrhea, right? And we didn't have, uh, toilet facilities.

Um. . . Pause. we, you know, on the front side of the stalls - because some women and children, had to live in the stalls. Where maggots were still coming out. And, just at the entrance of the stalls, there was a trough. Where, all the animals', um, feces and urine were flushed away. And that was our toilet. There was no. . . privacy, and so a lot of us didn't want to go, you know, go to the toilets. Because everybody was there, sharing, you know, the same thing. And. . . it was. . . you know, it was so dehumanizing. And there were these old – for instance my grandmother. She was separated from her husband, from whom she was never, ever separated, after their marriage. And all of a sudden, my grandfather's gone. She's worrying about him. And, she was in a state, Pause. I don't know, she just. She was stunned. But, luckily for her, you know, she had us, to look after her. Now, they were in their seventies. They were retired. And they lived this, you know, really really, wonderful life. . . because they didn't have to work, they had, their two older sons, and hired hands to run their farm. So anyway, my grandfa-my, grandmother was not allowed, to visit with him. And then. . . my mother, every day, after. . . after, the so-called breakfast, she would let us, take us outside, to air our hair and skin and, clothing from that horrible smell in the barn. And then. . . we were told, my mother was told that if she registered with the RCMP, and promised to come back, at a certain hour of the day, that she would be allowed out of the compound. And so she did this as much as she could. She would take us down to Powell Street. Because some of the restaurants, Japanese restaurants were still open. So she would feed us there. Because she had enough. . . sense to get as much money out of the bank account. And she made a. . . money belt, that she wore around her waist. And so, she had a lot of money on her. So she was able to do that. Whereas, a lot of people couldn't, so they had to uh, you know. Just continue eating that slop. But. . . after a while, a lot of people got diarrhea, and food poisoning. So there was a strike. And they did improve the type of food they fed us. After that. But still it wasn't, you know. Not the kind of food we would have chosen.

Um. . . my grandparents were sent away first from Hastings Park. We stayed there - like, we were sent. . . to Alberta - Magrath, Alberta. Where they were assigned to a farmer, and forced to work on a sugar beet farm. But we didn't know where they were, when we left. So. . . we were told that. . . mother and her five children will be sent to Greenwood with several other people on this rickety old train that was brought out from the siding. It was really, not even cleaned. And the seats were all slats, wooden slats. So. . . when we got on the train, we didn't have any food. Because we didn't know how far we were going, and we ended up in a place called Greenwood. But on the way, everybody was so hungry, that when we got to Penticton, there was an RC- well, actually, there was an RCMP officer accompanying us, on the train, and he was sitting by the door. I don't know if he thought we were going to escape. But, he said that we couldn't, we couldn't leave the train? But everybody was so hungry, that, you know, everybody made a, a beeline, and - pushed the, officer, you know, to one side and got out of the train, and bought every piece of food that was at the station. And we came back onto the train. But the children were suffering a lot, because. You know, uh. There was no - you know, diapers like they have today. And. . . I don't know how the parents managed their babies. Without any facilities on that train. So when we got to Greenwood, there was no one there to. . . meet us. So, all the women, and the children dragged our suitcases and whatever we can into town. It wasn't too far. So. . . the commissioner assigned to Greenwood saw us and took us to this undertaker's home to feed us. So the undertaker's wife boiled up some eggs, and made toast, and fed us. And then we were taken to these abandoned buildings that the miners used to live in? And, my mother, we were assigned to the upstairs. But it was just a tiny cubicle, that five of us were supposed to stay in, and. . . there was no bed or anything. So, we, at night, we just lined up like sardines on the floor, and slept there. And there was this little kitchen on the top floor. That all the women, had to share, to cook their food. So everybody had to take turns cooking. And. . . when we got there, the place was so filthy, that everyone had to, you know. . . wash and clean the place, but there was, no pots or pans or buckets or anything, so everyone had to go down to the hardware store. To buy, you know, pots, pans, and dishes and buckets and cloth and brooms and brushes. And so they managed to clean that place out after several days. But that's how we lived there for. . . until we were told to move, but when we were in Greenwood, mother received a letter from my father. That's when we found out that he was still alive. So that was a relief.

What happened to him was, he was taken to Hastings Park, where he stayed for a couple of nights, and was put on the train, and, shipped to a place called Yellowhead Pass. And he was, it was near Banff. And he was. . . assigned to a work crew, where Japanese Canadian men taken from their family were assigned, and apparently, every hundred miles or so, there were, there was a crew of about a hundred Japanese Canadian men? Working. So anyway, it was a relief to know that my father was alive. And then. . . in the next letter, we were told that the government had decided that if the men. . . well, they can't say volunteered. You know, agreed to go, and work on the sugar beet farms on the Prairies, that they could reunite with their families? So of course. What do you say? You know. Of course we wanted to get reunited. So we agreed to go to Alberta. Magrath. Where my grandparents were. So first my. . . father, and several of the men. Actually five, five men were taken. From Salt Spring Island. And so, the five men, together, uh, went by train to Magrath. But my father was telling us that while they were on the train, they could hear the Caucasian men, saying, you know, are they Chinese? Are they Japs? You know. And so they were afraid. You know. If they found out that they were not Chinese? So they kept very quiet, until they reached Lethbridge, Alberta. Where they got, uh, where they were met, to go to the different farms. And I think most of them went to Magrath. And, anyway. My father got to Magrath, about. . . early July? And he was living with my grandparents. You know, they were living in these horrible shacks. And my father. . . helped, you know, helped them with the sugar beet. And then when we got there, it was late. . . later in July. We were assigned. We stayed with my grandparents. For one, one day. And then we were assigned to another farmer's place, farm. And this farmer, his name was Lolavie Jensen, he was telling the people of Magrath to treat the Japs like criminals. And when he picked us up at the Keeler farm where my grandparents were, he took us the farm and deposited us in front of this little. . . building. It was, ten by fifteen. For, six people. Pause. There was nothing in the buil - in that, building. It was just a dusty floor. No cooking facilities. No beds. And he expected us to live there. And, so. . . you can't live like that, so. My father, with my sister, asked the farmer to take them into town, so my dad could buy some lumber to build bunk beds along the outsi- you know, the, um, along the wall. And then he also had to buy a small two-burner kitchen stove, because my mother needed something to cook on. So he built the bunk beds, and they built small tables. There was no room really, to put anything in there, because it was so tiny. You know, this room is uh, twenty-nine by nineteen. So can you imagine what that little house was like? And we had to drink the water, from the pond that the animals drank from. And we ate mostly canned goods, because there was no place to store any fresh fruits. And my sister was assigned to work for the farmer's wife.

Now this farmer lived in this beautiful white, antebellum type of house with pillars and balconies, and. And they had two daughters. And they would be dressed in these flouncy white dresses, sitting on the balcony. Looking at the slave family. You know. And it was a very uncomfortable feeling to see them staring at us day after day. And my father had to work for the farmer. So, the farmer took him every morning to the field that my father had to work in. But. . . after a couple or three months, my parents said if we continue to live like this, we will all surely die. Because our health was deteriorating, because of the living conditions and the lack of proper food. So my sister wrote a really impassioned letter to the commissioner in Lethbridge. And he came one day. And it was a sight to see, because he was kind of a rotund man. And it was a very hot day. And he came. . . and the first thing he did was swing his jacket, because our house sitting next to the pig pen, was constantly covered with flies. So the, actually the house looked more, as if it was painted black. That's how many flies there were. And he, he didn't even look - he didn't even go into the building. He just said, okay. I'll move you to one of the camps. So, in November Pause. with the accompaniment of the RCMP, we were taken to Nelson, BC. But on the way to Nelson. . . I remember being on the bus, and we stopped at one of the communities, I don't know where it was. But there were a bunch of teenagers, in front of this coffee shop? And, the bus driver went in, I don't know if he went to relieve himself, or, get himself a cup of coffee. But the teenagers ran toward the door of the open bus. And I heard them saying Japs, and, you know. I thought they were going to attack us. So I think the bus driver saw them. And he came running back into the bus and closed the bus door and we took off. But then. . . we went from Nelson, to one of the camps along Slocan Lake. The first place we landed was Popoff. We stayed there for a few days. And then from Popoff we were moved to Bay Farm. And I remember Bay Farm because, in these buildings we were taken to the upper floor, where we had to stay, and sleep. From Bay Farm. . . it was, next taken to Slocan, where we were assigned a tent. We lived in this tent, and all the area was covered with snow because, it was, it was the middle of winter, right? And the snow was really deep. And paths were dug between the piles of snow, to get to the communal. . . communal. . . area where, a building where we were fed. And, as children, because the tent was so cold, um...we stayed in this building, as long as we were allowed to stay. I don't know how my mother managed to keep my brother clean. You know, he was still in diapers. And we were. . . we slept on the floor, right. I can't remember if it was on the dirt floor, or if there was some planking that we could sleep on.

But on, on January 1, 1943, we were told to, go to Rosebery, another. . . incarceration camp that was built specially to house us. But, unfortunately. . . those shacks were not completed. You know it wasn't finished. But we were forced to live in them. So it was more like living, in a basket? Because, you know, the shiplap. . . floor, there were, you know. . . spaces where the wind was whipping through. Because, remember there was snow on the ground. It was one of the coldest winters in BC history. And then, the doors were not doors like we know today. It was just, shiplap strung together. With a board, cross board. And so, you know, it didn't fit. The opening of the door, so the wind was whipping through there. And the windows were just, I think it was handmade. So, the wind was whipping through that. Around the, that. And then Pause. And then the building, which was, I think fourteen by twenty-eight on the outside, was wrapped in tarpaper. And we had no roof, I mean, no ceiling, so the cold air was coming up from the floor and going up to the ceiling. And we had this, tin. . . you know, kind of an oblong, oval-shaped stove. Which we were, assig-well, we were given these raw wood? Uh, and they didn't burn very well. Because they were still wet. And then mother in her kitchen had a two-burner kitchen stove. And a sink that was made out of wood. No, water coming into our house. We had to go out, at a communal faucet. Between the, you know, two rows of houses. And then. . . that room was so cold, you know my father tried to keep the fire going, but. . . the raw wood. . . you know, would not sustain the heat. So in the morning when we woke up, because of our breath, breathing, the wall was a sheet of ice. And. . . so my mother would tell us children, you know, not to move, because our bedding was frozen to the wall. You know, there was no inner wall. Just the outer wall, plus the two by four still sticking out. And Pause. then, because my little brother was still crawling, you know, we had to lay blankets on the floor, to keep him from getting slivers, into him. But then, somehow, I don't know if the government supplied these round tubs, and that was our bathtub, that was where my mother did her washing. That was where she. . . well. That was what she used for almost everything. You know. And then, we had this tiny – because the rooms were so tiny, um, the inside was divided into three rooms. So-called bedrooms on each side and the common room in the centre. And luckily for us we had enough people to fill that one shack. But people who had only about four people? Had to share that small space with another family. So one bedroom was for one family and the other bedroom was for the other family. And they had to share this small common room. So it was. . . a terrible situation.

So anyway. . . in the spring. . . you know when the sun began to shine, the men went into the forest to get cedar that were fallen, and they made, shakes? Cedar shakes to cover the tarpaper. So at least, you know, there was a bit of warmth in the winter that way. We had no lights in the house, no electricity. They gave us six candles to light the night. And because it was winter, and the night was long, we had to go to bed early because six candles won't light the night for very long. And then, I think my mother had to feed us in shifts. Because we only had this tiny table and two benches on each side. And. . . I remember her constantly washing my brother's diapers. And then. . . we stayed in Rosebery for quite a long time, I think we spent the longest time, of our - no, I can't say that. Longest time of our incarceration in camp, in Rosebery. That's where we met the Morishitas, across the road from us. But, you know it's amazing, how people in this kind of condition. . . persevere, and try to create a community. . . trying to create a community so that the children will feel as if it's normal. So, as children, I'm sure you've heard stories. . . of children, even today saying, oh, we had a lot of fun in the camps! Of course we had a lot of fun because our parents, you know, suffered, to create this atmosphere for us. To make us feel as if, you know, to create a situation where, we WERE having fun. And made us feel as if it was normal. But. . . the women created different groups like, sewing groups, and the men were playing, you know these board games called shogi, and things like that. So, it became a community. And. . . it was interesting, living just within the Japanese Canadian community. The only person who was not of Japanese descent was the RCMP officer. And. . . and then, after about a year. . . the parents, you know, were demanding schools for the children? So, the, apparently the government refused to fund schools? So, anyway, um. Some of the shacks on the second ranch were converted into schools. And...high school students who had graduated before they were incarcerated, became our teachers. I don't remember too much about what I learned in school. The only thing I remember is. . . the only thing I remember is Pause. the word 'clam'? Um, I learned it as 'cram'. As a child. So, I don't know what the conversation was, in this class. But I kept saying, you know the teacher would ask something, about this clam or, you know, seafood, or something. And I would say 'cram'. And she was mean. She kept saying, you're wrong. And I kept saying the same word over and over again. And I didn't know it was wrong. So, that's the only thing I remember about my schooling.

Yeah. But, you know, the fathers built these desks, so that two students - desks and bench. So the two students shared one desk. And then, during the summer, we swam in Slocan Lake. So that was a fun time. And then, also, the fathers helped to build this great big bath house. So that at least we can keep ourselves clean. Instead of bathing in that tiny tub. And so, that was kind of a fun thing for us too, because we used to go and, you know, get scrubbed on the outside of the tub. And then we would go into this great big common tub that was heated from the bottom. And those things were kind of memorable. But, you know, we were. . . we did things among the Japanese Canadian community that we were not accustomed to. Pause. So that was. . . an experience. Yeah. And then, not everyone in the camps got along. Just like any other community, right? But there were enough people around in our rows that were really really good. They got along really well, so. In the evenings, the older boys and girls, and - they, they tolerated us little ones, they would build a bonfire between the shacks. And, we would have nightly, you know, conversations, you know what teenagers do, yeah. They. . . so, in that way it was kind of fun for us, little ones. And we used to play these, games like, Aunty-I-Over. . . of course you don't know that. Laughs. We used to throw the ball? We used to pick teams. And one would be on this side of the shack and the other would be on this side. And we'd throw the ball over the roof. And if the other side caught the ball, then they would run, and try to hit us with the ball. And if we get hit, then we have to go to the other team. And then the other one was, this stick thing that we would dig this little channel in the ground. And then we would put this short stick about six inches across this little channel. And then we'd have a longer stick, and then we would flick the stick. And then see how far we could flick the stick. And so the one that flicks the stick farthest is the winner of that game. So anyway, we had a lot of these, these games that occupied us, if we weren't swimming, or. In the wintertime, our parents, built sleighs, sleds, I guess they were called, for us, out of wood. And we used to slide down the mountains that way. But, you know. Like, if your gloves and your coat and everything got wet, now, we could just throw it in the dryer. But we had to wait until everything dried, so we couldn't go out for the whole day. Because we had to wait until our clothes got dried. But in that way we occupied ourselves, and in the summer, the mothers. . . in the spring especially, we. . . all the mothers, because. . . we didn't have fresh vegetables, during the winter. . . all the mothers would go out into the field, which was next to the railway tracks.

We harvested dandelions. So. . . I wish these women would come now and Laughs. do my garden, and that. Laughs. But you know, we harvested all the dandelions. So it was really really Laughs. cleared off. And that was our vegetable for the longest time. Until our gardens around our shack started to produce. And everyone had really nice gardens. Really, really, productive gardens. And that's how we, you know, got our vegetables. But I think our fruit we had to buy. But sometimes, my mother used to take us along the railway tracks. And there would be. . . there would be. . . these wild strawberries. And everybody used to just dive for them. Because you know, it was very sporadic, right. And the strawberries were really tiny. Yeah. So anything we could eat, we harvested along the way, and then. We had. . . there was no sources for tea. So the women harvested, this. . . oh, in Japanese it's called niwatoko. But they stripped the buds from this tree, bush. And they would steam it. And dry it, and make tea out of that. But, you know, when I think of it now, I don't know how those bushes and trees survived. Because before it was, you know about. . . an inch or two inches? Everybody would pick it, right, so it never had time to, Laughs. feed itself, really, because it needed leaves to keep alive. And also. . . in the fall, we used to go up into the mountains. And we used to harvest hazelnuts. And we were lucky if the squirrels didn't get there first. Because, we know that all the ones that were on the ground, the squirrels had decided that it's not edible. You know, it was empty inside. So anyway, we lived like this. My father actually worked there, he was paid twenty-five cents an hour to chop wood that fed the stoves in the shacks. And we stayed there until. . . just about when the war ended. And then the second uprooting began. Oh, but before I tell you that, in January of 194. . . 3, my parents were informed that. . . Order-in-Council 469 was passed. And our property was sold, without our consent. And that was a shock to my parents. It was devastating. Because, my father kept saying, you know one of these days, Canada is going to come to her senses. And allow us to go back. So he wanted to go back to Salt Spring, to continue the dream? That he was building. But that was not to be. And then, like I said before the second uprooting started. . . to me, it was an ultimatum. Although they said it was a choice. Go east of the Rockies or be repatriated. To Japan. In other words, they were ethnically cleansing all Japanese Canadians from British Columbia. Because Ian Mackenzie, who was heading this project, said as long as I am in public service, I don't want any of them to come back to BC. So, their goal was to eliminate all people of Japanese descent from British Columbia.

So to me at this time, I feel that. . . the security myth. . . you know, they kept saying it's for the security of Canada, was a ruse. Because I learned later. . . from the reading of. . . Maurice Pope. And. . . Escott Reid. That, at this. . . January the eighth conference in Ottawa, about the Japanese problem? That, for instance, Maurice Pope, Lieutenant-Colonel, said that, when he agreed with the RCMP and the military that Japanese Canadians should not be removed from their homes, he said that I was afraid that the BC politicians would leap over the table to attack me. And then. . . Escott Reid said, when I left that conference room, I felt dirty all over. He said that they spoke about the Japanese Canadians the way Hitler would have spoken about the Jews in Germany. And then one of the delegates from BC told Maurice Pope, that. . . Pearl Harbor was a heaven-sent gift to the people of British Columbia, because it gave us. . . it gave us a chance to get rid of the Japanese, economic threat forevermore. So anyway. Okay, I'll go back to where I. . . started here. When they said repatriation. . . they use a lot of euphemisms. To try to. . . make this merciless. . . project they had against Japanese Canadians. . . apparently they had a committee, to create these euphemisms. Yes. I read it, not long ago. I was quite surprised at that. But anyway. . . anybody who can read the dictionary knows that you cannot - repatriation means sending people back to where they were born. Well. There were a few people, you know, in the 22,000, who were born in Japan. That includes my father. But most of the people, that were coerced to. . . choose to go to Japan, were either naturalized, so they were Canadian citizens, or they were Canadian born. So, in other words, they were deported. You know, they were not repatriated. So, after - well, of course, my father wanted to go back to Salt Spring Island. So, he wanted to be as close to British Columbia as possible. So, reluctantly, he chose to take our family back, to the sugar beet farms. Because that was the only choice we had. But, in the meantime, the government was separating the people who were going to Japan, and those who were staying in Canada. So we were moved from Rosebery to New Denver. And we were there, um, a year or two after the war ended. You know when they said that. . . they would free us, after the war had ended, why were we still there? You know. And so we lived in New Denver for a couple of years.

And from there. . . they said they were going to close that camp so we were shipped back to Magrath, Alberta. And we were assigned to a different farmer there. And we were living in this horrible horrible tiny. . . tiny, tiny. . . house. And my parents had to walk five miles to the field, to do their sugar beet. And, what I remembered really clearly was, my mother had injured her hip. But she still had to go out to the fields. And in the evening we would all run out to the road to watch them coming home. And in the twilight behind them, I could still visualize my mother dragging her right leg home. And it must have been so painful after working in the field. And there was no hot bath to ease her pain. Pause. and my sister, who had graduated from high school while we were still in Rosebery. . . they had to walk five miles to New Denver to attend this school called Lakeview Collegiate run by the missionaries in New Denver. And, she wanted to really go to university, to become a journalist. But we were destitute. We had no money left because the government had frozen our bank account. And all the money that was there, they used to incarcerate us. So, anyway, she got a job as a clerk in one of the grocery stores. And her income was crucial to our survival at that time. So she never got to. . . go to university. She used to write sonnets, and. . . you know, she. . . her, essays and poetry, her sonnets, were just, amazing! For such a young person. Yeah. So. . . anyway, she never did, get to go to university. But anyway Pause. We lived there. I did most of the cooking. I don't know how old I was then. But I wasn't very old. Maybe twelve or so. And I would - oh. I forgot to tell you that in Rosebery, my youngest brother was born. And at that time, you know, my mother couldn't give him all the nourishment, you know, after she stopped breastfeeding. And she wasn't - she wasn't being nourished either! And so. . . as he was growing up, you know. . . he lost his teeth early, you know in his adulthood, and he was never really strong. So I'll tell you about him later, but. Anyway. . . So. . . now, Bruce was about. . . oh, he was just a baby. So we used to put him on a wagon. We used to put Richard and Bruce on a wagon. And us girls would take them, walk the five miles, to visit our parents. Just to let them know that we were fine. So they wouldn't worry about us? Because we were on our own. And so this went on for a whole year. And, my parents said you know, this isn't enough, to sustain us.

So we moved to another farmer's place. And he was a Mormon elder. But I don't think he had that much compassion for us. And we lived in this horrible shack. It had an extra room, but still it was a SHACK. And we were able to work more acreage. And then, the owner of the grocery store that my sister worked at. Also took compassion on us and said that, you know I'll help you earn more money. So he used to drive us about six o'clock in the morning, I used to go with my mum and dad to pick beans and, you know, do chores like that. So that we could earn a little bit more money. And my father was also paid a little bit more because he looked after the farmer's livestock. Like the horses, and the...and the sheep. And in the winter, he had to harness up the horses, the team, and hook on the sled. And go...you know, REALLY really far away, I don't know how many miles it was. To pick up the feed for the sheep. I think it was. . . some kind of hay or something. And. . . you know in the winter. . . the roads weren't as good as it is today. So it was quite narrow. And when the cars came, they forced my father off to the side of the road. And you know, like if he went even an inch further, he - the whole sleigh, it was a huge sleigh. . . would have tipped over, and he would have had to reload and get the horses back on the road. So this went on for. . . until 1949, we stayed there. And at that time, just before that, my grandparents moved to a place called Cardston and started a restaurant with a partner. But this partner wasn't very. . . didn't have noble mind. And he was stealing, mostly, you know, robbing them blind. And so the restaurant got into trouble, and they asked us to come and help out. So that was another struggle. We went there, and. . . they, my mother worked double shift and my dad, who never came into the kitchen normally, ended up being the baker. And he made the best bread in Cardston, that sold out right away. But anyway. . . my parents, and my uncle ran this restaurant. And, for. . . five years. So by 19. . . 54, we had paid off the debt, and had enough money to go back to Salt Spring Island. And. . . I remember, while in Cardston, you know, we were given franchise? On April the one? '49, so. My father. . . got dressed up right away. And went with my younger sister Rose, got on the bus and went to Lethbridge, and got his citizenship. Because, while he was in Salt Spring, he tried many times to get citizenship, but he was denied. Because they weren't going to give any more citizenship to people of Japanese consent. I mean uh, descent. So, anyway. He was so proud, he said, now we are all Canadians. So anyway, after, then, in 1954, in September on my mum's. . . fiftieth birthday, we headed back to Salt Spring.

In the meantime, while we were still in Cardston. . . my sister, who had a pen pal, an American – Japanese American soldier. Pen pal, I don't know how she got the name. Anyway. She started writing to him. And. . . Laughs. anyway, I guess they got enamoured with each other. And he did come to see us, while we were still living in the Keeler farm. And I guess. . . they decided to get married. So while we were in Cardston, she went to Chicago where he was living, and got married. They lived there for, I don't know how many years. Maybe five years, and then he was transferred to Los Angeles. So, that's where she is right now. Her husband Ted died about three years ago. So, we packed up our stuff and we went home to Salt Spring. And. . . we were shocked at the racism still, boiling, on Salt Spring. Um, we were threatened. We were told to get off our island and. . . we don't want you back here. . . the RCMP came and said we can't, we won't, give you service. . . we don't give service to people of your race. And, you know. . . a lot of the islanders threatened us, in all different kinds of ways. But my parents were brave. They weren't going to let them. . . you know, off the island again. And even today. . . although the population of Salt Spring has changed a lot. And attitudes of Canadians have changed too. But still there are a few people who are. . . you know that the story of our return to Salt Spring is a book in itself. But, I won't repeat that right now. But. . . we did get back to Salt Spring, in 1954. Now my father was fifty-five by that time. You know, people about that age is thinking about retiring? But they were starting all over again. First of all when my dad got back to Salt Spring he went straight to the farm, that we owned? It was already chopped up. Okay? Di-subdivided. And he went to the fellow living there, and he said, will you sell us back my property. And the fellow said no. So he was only paying ten dollars a month, mortgage. So my father and mother said, okay. That's done. We're not going to get our farm back. So, anyway, they bought another piece of land, five and a half acres, near the town - village of Ganges, it's right close. . . it was a five-acre scrub land. So we had to clear that land. I had graduated from high school in Cardston. And I was going, I wanted to go to university. But I stayed for a whole year to help my mum and dad clear the land. It was really hard work. Because everything was done by hand. There were - there were no farm machinery that would help us clear the land or plow the land or anything that was done. The closest thing to a machinery was a rotor tiller. Which had to be handled by hand, you know, like. And so, and we planted the. . . five acres of asparagus, strawberries, raspberries, boysenberries, and vegetables.

And. . . so, after one year, I left to go to University of Toronto and. . . so far away, I don't know why I chose Toronto, I could have gone to UBC. But I think it was meant for me to go there. Because of all the experiences I had there, was very very. . . good for what I am doing now. So, anyway. So my parents started this farm. And it was really hard work because they were, you know, they're aged, they weren't as physically strong as before, because they lost the most productive years of their lives in that seven years. And us children, we lost our childhood. Because by the time I got out, it was like seven - I was fourteen, right? So anyway. Back to Salt Spring. I used to come home every summer to help them with the harvest. But anyway. My parents, sold a lot of their goods from this uh, building that my father made, and people from the island supported them by coming to buy their produce. And they shipped a lot of their goods to Victoria, to a wholesale house. And. . . before the war, when they were still on the Island, when Queen Elizabeth and King George came to Victoria? To the Empress Hotel? The chef at the Empress Hotel ordered all the strawberries from our farm. So, that's the first pair of royal family Laughs. that had our vegetables and strawberries. And then when Charles and Diana came. . . it wasn't the same chef, obviously. But they ordered the strawberries, from my parents' farm. So they had, Laughs. their dessert Laughs. from our farm. So anyway. They struggled, and they worked, and worked. But they got a reputation, of, you know, of producing really really top quality vegetables and fruit. And so. . . yes. Everybody depended on my parents for fresh vegetables and fruit. And, it was really great. But. . . and so, with all their hard work, they were able to send four of us through university. My younger sister, Rose, and my two younger brothers, Richard and Bruce. They all went through UBC. They weren't crazy like me and, didn't go across Laughs. Canada. So, anyway, but. I don't know if I should continue telling the struggles of racism on Salt Spring Island. So, do you want to stop now?

Sure.

Yeah. Tape is stopped and continued at a later time.

Alright, we're recording part two. Of, one of two, for Mary Kitagawa's oral history. Okay. So Mary, you can go ahead.

Okay, um, I think I'll start with leaving for university. . . I chose Trinity College at the University of Toronto because it has the Anglican affiliation. And. . . well actually I was so naive at that time. I just looked at that and it says Anglican so I. . . registered at Trinity College. I didn't realize that. . . almost ninety percent of the student body there came from old, wealthy families. And here I was just. . . given the franchise, just. . . five years before. Naive, you know, no. . . social experience except, amongst the Japanese Canadians. I didn't know how the, you know the wider, white. . . community operated. So everything was like a shock when I got there. I didn't know anybody, and I had to find a place to stay. Because I didn't have the insight to find a place before I left! And so, a family that my mum knew said they'll take me in until I find a place. So, I stayed there. . . a couple of months. And then, just outside of Toronto in Etobicoke, there was a family from Salt Spring Island who said that they'll take me.

Okay.

So, that was fortunate, that was in Etobicoke. And uh, it was quite a long ways, by bus from campus to their home. And in the winter it was brutal, because I was so poor I didn't have really good winter clothing. And you know, waiting for the bus on this, you know little island, it was really really cold. But anyway, I survived. And then from there, I. . . one day I was looking in the Torontonensis, which is the University of Toronto newspaper and I was looking at the ads, and there was an ad that says, family looking for a caretaker for their. . . year, or two-year-old son. And they, you know offered certain amenities. So I thought oh, gee, that sounds good. And so I phoned them. And then, I got the job right away. And they lived just outside of Forest Hill village, which was the wealthy part of Toronto, up north. And, you had to get there by taking the first subway, that they had, and then take a bus. And there, I found this. . . really nice couple. This family. . . history in Toronto is long, and. . . you know, they're there from very young. Well-known family. And so, I was to look after this little boy. Blonde and, whatever. And. . . they happened to have graduated from Trinity College. So we had something in common right from the beginning. They were very very kind people. But they didn't know anything about what happened to Japanese Canadians. And I don't think I really talked to them about anything, so, they just took me as a really naive, you know uh, first-year student. So, anyway, I stayed with them throughout my, you know, until the end? When I graduated? But. . . by going to Trinity and living with this family, I realize how much I had missed. You know during the seven years? You know, there are a lot of things that I learned from associating with the students at Trinity, and the association with this family. Pause. But, I can't - you know, when I think about how naive I was, at that stage of my life, it scares me, really. Because. . . I really didn't know how to deal with a lot of problems. But then, anyway, the first year I was there, I think I cried until. . . Christmas. My sister and her family. . . were living in Chicago at that time. So, in order to, you know, feel comfortable and, in a family set, setting, I went to Chicago. And that was so relieving. Yeah. There was family there.

But then I came back and I did what university students do. Yeah. I didn't, do a lot of socializing and things like that because I didn't fit in. Yeah. But I - and then I joined, a Japanese Canadian, Nisei. . . students' club. But even there, I felt I didn't belong. I felt I was a little different somehow. And so I, I left that. . . I left that, organization. And then, I. . . at that time, I thought all white people were white? But then I found out from, you know the voices coming from all over the campus, that there was a group called the Jewish group. And I heard so many racist comments about them. And it really upset me, you know? And you know, even when I was waiting for the subway, or the train, I mean the streetcar, I could hear people shouting, Oh, there goes a. . . you know, Jewish bitch in this. . . you know, fancy car and this and that and, and...that was a shock to me. Yeah. But anyway, and then, the Jewish kids would go to Mexico or somewhere at Christmas break. And they would all come home really tanned and everything and. . . and I could hear people talking badly about them. You know. So anyway. . . Other than that. . . I didn't have much social life. I did have a really good friend who was a Japanese Canadian. Who also, we were the only two Japanese Canadians at Trinity at that time. So we chummed together a lot. Other than that, I really didn't make any friends there. Maybe I didn't know HOW to make friends. Because when I think back, and we had all those moves, you know during the incarceration. . . I think after about the third move, I decided I'm not going to make any friends. Because, I'm going to lose them anyway. I'll never see them again. So I, I think at that time I decided. . . that, I'm not going to get really attached to anybody. Yeah. So even today, you know? I've started to make friends, especially with the young people, because you know, we're working so much with UBC and UVic. Pause. I feel as if I've found friends that I want to keep. And these are all, young people, not, not the elderly, of our age group. I. . . can't seem to um, have the same interest as the elderly now. Because my mind is still on the academic side, yeah. So in that way, you know, right now I'm very comfortable. So I graduated, I was a, 5T9 - in Toronto they, you know, they give you the year that you're graduating so I was 5T9. And then I came back to UBC. And I went to get my teacher's, it wasn't a degree, it was like a. . . they called it a PB, so what can I call that, teacher's. . . certificate I guess, yeah. To be able to teach secondary school. And I, after I got my certificate, I went to Salt Spring Island. To try to get a job. And I went to the school board and the fellow said to me. . . “no Jap is going to teach our kids.” So I thought well I guess that must be a rejection. So anyway. I left. And I went back to Vancouver, and I made an application for teaching in Vancouver somewhere. And, very fortunately, I got hired by Kitsilano. And that was SO good. Because they were making an addition to the school at that time, and I got the newest room. It was so nice. It was big, it was sunny, and I didn't think the other teachers. . . were very happy that a rookie had come in, and usurped their room. Laughs.

So, anyway. And so I taught there, until. . . I got pregnant. And, at that time, if you got pregnant, you were asked to leave. You were not, allowed to be a teacher. I think they maybe thought it was, shameful, or whatever. Whatever the reason, I was gone. So, while I was teaching, there was another fellow who started at the same time as me, at Kitsilano. And he kept. . . bugging me that he has a friend, who would like to meet me, and I said, no no no, I'm not interested. Pause. So anyway. . . this kept on for about two years. You know, he kept slipping these notes into my teacher's box? And so he wouldn't quit. So I said okay. Just once. I'll meet your friend. So anyway, we went on a blind date. And when I first saw him, I thought, man what an arrogant. . . I can't say the word I said, Both laugh. person this is. So anyway, he was very persistent, as much as his friend was persistent, to get me to meet - Tosh. So anyway, I finally. . . I guess I must have broke down and I said, okay. We can date. So we dated for about. . . two, two and a half years. And then, we got engaged, and then we got married. And then. . . a year later, I got pregnant with my son. And then, we had a family, so. Pause. well we, got an apartment in Vancouver. Until then, I was living with my sister and brother who were going to UBC. So anyway, we got an apartment, and then from there, we went to live in Richmond, in this little house. And that was the best thing because we got to meet our lifelong friend, which my children call Aunt Bea. She was a Caucasian lady of Scottish background? Her husband was. . . one of the Scandinavian countries. But they were both Canadian-born. And so, I. . . we lived there for a little while and then. . . Aunt Bea and I decided to go and see this new subdivision. With no intentions of buying a house. So we go there, and we see these five houses. . . sample houses, and then next thing you know, we buy that house. And Tosh says, how did I get into this jam? Laughs. Because we were still struggling financially. Because I was supporting my sister and brother, to go through university. Well anyway, we bought the house, and. . . after we were there for a short while, my daughter was born, there. And we stayed there, and one day for I don't know what reason, we. . . came to Tsawwassen. And we were just driving around different places. And we saw this piece of board on a tree. Said, you know, house for - uh, lot for sale. Phone, da da da. So I wrote the phone number down. Because Tosh had no intentions of buying a place. So anyway, next thing you know, Laughs. we buy this place. And. . . anyway, and then. . . we started building here. We had an architect design the house. And we, started building. So, we contracted most of the house, except Tosh decided that he wants to do the finishing inside? So, he did the finishing inside. And we've been here for, forty. . . we're going onto our forty-ninth year, living here.

And so, our children. . . I think Landon was six at this time. He had started grade one in Richmond. And. . . he couldn't read. You know, even in grade one. And his teacher told me that he might have learning problems. So, okay. And then my daughter was four years old. So she started preschool here and, Landon started grade one here. Within three days he was reading. And he never looked back. He skipped grade. . . two, and went into grade three. And, he's really a Laughs. brilliant person. I'd like to meet that teacher who told me he has learning problems! Laughs. So. But. . . we were the only non-white family in Tsawwassen. So they experienced a lot of. . . racism. Landon used to come home, black and blue from being, hit and punched and kicked. And he was little. You know he wasn't as big as his classmates. But when he. . . when he skipped a grade, then everything, changed. You know, they felt that. . . you know, Landon was. . . superior in a certain way. So anyway, he went through junior high here, and high school here. And then he went to UBC. And he graduated from UBC with a teacher's degree, and then he got married, and he and his wife Karen-Anne, went to, New Aiyansh, it's, that's the First Nations group that. . . dealt with the. . . the land titles? Yeah. So they taught there for. . . one year. And then they came back, and he went to um. He wanted his, master's - no, he taught one year at Burnaby South. And. . . he said, he used to see Michael J. Fox coming to see his former teacher. Yeah. But anyway he. . . somehow felt that there was a, very. . . low ceiling? He had lots of ambition. And so he wanted to get out of teaching. He was an excellent teacher, he still is an excellent, you know, person, who can teach anybody. But he's no longer a teacher. So he. . . decided that he is going to get his MBA. So he went to University of Western Ontario. And after his first year, my son-in-law also decided that he's going. He had a. . . he had a, not a geography - geology degree from UBC. So, the two Karens went and supported the two husbands. And they both got their MBAs. And then Landon came back, and he worked for a company, I can't remember what it was, but then he decided to work for. . . WCB. WCB is Workman's Comp. And there, he was the boss of another person. Dave, I can't remember his last name. So anyway, they got along really well together, and they had a project, they took it down to one of the competitions in the United States and they won first prize. So they came back, and then Dave decided to leave WCB and start - and buy a company. It's an IT company? And so. . . he wanted United States also to come, and join him. So after, I don't know, a couple of years, at. . . couple of years at WCB, United States decided to join Dave. So, today, Dave is the CEO and United States is the COO. After he was. . . he started off as a VP. And, now they have an office in Burnaby, and an office in Victoria. So. . . you know, they do a lot of government contract. And the company name is Quartech.

So anyway. That's my son's story. And he used to, he and his family used to live just five doors down. And now his house is all smashed up and a new one's going up and he moved down by the beach, in Tsawwassen. And they do a lot of travelling. And then my daughter. . . who is two years younger than Landon. . . she went through the whole school system in Tsawwassen. And then she, started - oh, she went first to a religious school in Saskatchewan, I can't remember what the name of it was, but anyway. After that, she registered at UBC. And she only went there one or two years. And then she got married, and then she had to go with, her husband Laughs. to University of Western Ontario, so. And she became the right hand person for the Dean of, Dean of. . . Western. . . of the program that Landon and Dave were in. And, they got. . . yeah, they got along really well. And so. . . and then after that she came back, and then she went to - enrolled at Simon Fraser. But then she got pregnant so she had to quit. Laughs.

Mhm.

Poor thing. Laughs. But anyway. Then after Dave and Karen got married, they. . . they had the two sons, and then they started this tae kwon do school because they had enrolled the two boys in tae kwon do and they kind of liked it too, so they started their own school, now they have two. And she is. . . she's really a capable girl - person. She not only runs her business, she also does a lot of volunteer work. She also teaches junior achievement in the school system. And now she's teaching two days a week at Trinity Western University. And, I don't know how she does it, and she's. . . an amazing. . . grandmother of three. And she. . . she is so talented it just makes me feel as if I'm just standing still. Rebeca laughs. Yeah, I'm so proud of my two children. They have accomplished so much. Okay, and then. . . you know, for Tosh and me. . . family is so important. And their education is really important because that's what my parents stressed. Tosh - well I should let Tosh tell his story but, uh, anyway, because of a. . . financial situation, his father didn't allow him to go to university. And I know how brilliant he is. He always wanted to be an engineer. And. . . yeah. But I mean, he's done well. Otherwise. You know. But, Clears throat. and, anyway. . . when the Redress. . . process started, you know, like, we're isolated here. We're the only Japanese Canadian family here. We're the only Asians here. And so all we did was interact with the white community. And like, Tosh did a lot of coaching of flag football, baseball, hockey. . . Karen's what do you call it, softball team. . . and he started the first girls' hockey team here. Because he wanted Karen to have the same opportunity as Landon?

And so, Clears throat. we were really involved in the community that way. And so I think the people accepted us here. You know, after the difficult start. And then slowly, slowly, a few ethnic people started to come in to Tsawwassen. And, when I was gardening one day, you know, we didn't have all those tall trees there. And I heard this one. . . two ladies walking. And by, and then this one lady said, yeah, she said, we had to get out of Richmond. Because I couldn't stand all those Chinese people. So she moved to Tsawwassen because it was so much whiter, right? Yeah. So. . . anyway. . . We started getting involved with Redress because Roy Miki and Tatsuo Kage started having these uh, home gatherings? They went to different homes, like, each host family would ask so many people to come, and talk about the experience of the incarceration and so on so forth. So, we went to this one in North Delta. And at that time I felt, wow, you know, I get to tell my story. Yeah. So, anyway. . . I, I really got connected with the Japanese Canadian community that way. Until then we were totally isolated. And so from then on, we decided that we're going to. . . join the community. And then, after the Redress, we joined the Human Rights Committee. Because that Human Rights Committee started right after Redress. And. . . with Redress. . . there was a bit of a conflict within, the Japanese Canadian community. And the government was trying to, you know, use that conflict. To try to do the least amount of what the committee was trying to ask? So, anyway. . . we've been with the Human Rights Committee for, like Tosh said about twenty-five years. And we, Tosh and I did most of the fundraising for them, by selling donated greenhouse vegetables. And you know, it got to the point where we were able to raise about two thousand dollars, at Powell Street? And that allowed us to do the different functions? Advocacy and whatever. But then. . . we felt that we did our job on the committee so we left, I think about three years ago. And then, they still needed help, fundraising. And they kept asking, please please, you know, keep selling those vegetables. But, by that time, we were physically not capable, because there was a lot of physical work like, lifting those heavy crates and going to get the vegetables from the greenhouse, that was a lot of work. And then we had brought all the vegetables and things to our house here, and then we had to transfer it back on to the trailer. It was getting too much and I just said, no more. And I think Tosh wanted to continue, but I put my foot down. And then he said, well we've got to find ways to earn money for the Human Rights Committee. Even if we weren't on there. And then, he was looking through some website, and he saw this. . . Spam sushi in Hawaii, and he kept, you know, researching and researching more about this. And he though oh, wow. That's a good idea. And he. . . you know, explained this to the committee and they said, who would want to eat spam sushi, you know? Laughs.

Hm.

Because the reason is, when we were incarcerated in the camps, we ate canned meats? A LOT. I don't know how many different dishes the mothers were able to create with that, you know, the can of. Rebeca laughs.

So nobody wanted to look at it. Laughs. And so, anyway. So anyway he just kept on and Pause. oh maybe I should let him tell this story. Yeah. But, it's interesting. So, from then on, we're still selling Spam sushi and it's really really popular. We, I think, we must make about two thousand dollars. You know, that's a lot of Spam sushi. So anyway, everybody's happy now. Laughs. And then. . . we were doing a lot of advocacy type of work at the Human Rights Committee. One day, I was reading the Vancouver Sun. . . and there's this half page article. This. . . federal building, you know, there was a beautiful, glass federal building on 401 Burrard Street in Vancouver. Was being named after this Pause. former member of parliament. And then the name hit me. Like a bullet. Howard Charles Green. And I said, oh my goodness. You know, because my parents always included us in their conversation about anything that happened in their lives. And they mentioned a lot of these racist BC politicians' names at the dinner table? And so I thought. . . Charles, Green. Howard Green. You know, it didn't click right away? But then, I. . . I sent one of my friends down to the public library, Vancouver Public Library, and I asked him to find out all about this Howard Charles Green. And he got headline after headline after headline. I don't know, three or four pages of headline, pertaining to Howard Green. And they were all so. . . terrible against, the Japanese Canadians. And so I wrote to the minister, Michael Fortier, who came to dedicate this building. And then he. . . and then I sent him a copy of all the headlines of Howard Charles Green. And I told him, how can a government that apologized and gave us Redress in 1988, come and honour one of the most racist BC politicians ever, who sent us away from our homes? And the email I got back was almost like, uh-oh, I think we made a mistake, you know. They didn't admit it, but I could read between the lines. And so, there was a lot of back and forth, and I, I. You know, I always feel that you can't really do things on your own. You need the grassroots people to help you. So, I asked Grace. . . Eiko Thomson, who was the president of the NAJC at that time, and Roy Miki, who was one of the leaders in the Redress movement, to come on and help me. So, the three of us did a lot of back and forth with the government, and also with the grandchildren of Howard Green. Because Barb McBride, who is one of the granddaughters. . . she has a sister named Donna Green, and a brother named John Green, but I didn't know of them until later. I only communicated with Barb. And she was so angry at me because she said, how can you. . . do this to my grandfather? He was such a nice man and. . . blah blah blah. And so I said, well you know, most grandparents are really nice to their grandchildren. And I said, that's not what he was to us. So I said, would you like to read about how we were incarcerated and why? So she was open-minded. And, Roy and Grace stopped communicating with her. They didn't want anything to do with her. But I kept communicating with her because, I thought by educating her, that we might have her on our side. So I sent her titles of books, and articles, and websites, that she could go into, and. . . educate herself.

She still wanted her grandfather's name, still, left on that building. But, in the end, she and her siblings. . . not all her siblings, apparently, just Donna and John. . . agreed that their grandfather was a racist. And they accepted that. And so, we got the government to agree. It took us about a year, a little over a year, of back and forth. And Roy and Grace and I went to present our case to the committee that was chosen to make the decision. Pause. So the vote was two for and two against. And so. . . the minister sided with us. So it was three-two. And so we were able to change the name of that building. So it went from Howard Charles Green building, to Douglas Jung building. Douglas Jung was the first Chinese Canadian Member of Parliament in Canada. So. . . that was a victory. And that made us very happy. But the minister did not come when we. . . you know, the ceremony was put together. And then the next thing was. . . about the. . . 1942 Japanese Canadian students. . . registered at UBC. Well I was. . . looking through some website and, I came to one, and there was a. . . graduation ceremony at the University of West - uh, Washington. State of Washington. And I thought, gee, is this a play? You know, because, some elderly people were crossing the stage. Some on, you know wheelchairs, some on crutches, some on, you know, one of these walkers, and others, cane and, whatever. Ahh, gee, but they look real, like, like real people! So, um. I, I looked, I watched the whole ceremony, and I heard one of the professors. Well there were many speakers, but I zoomed in on this one professor. His name was, Tetsuden...Kashi, Kashiwa. He was one of the professors at the University of Washington so I wrote to him right away, via email? And he told me exactly what was happening. He said that all the universities. . . along the west coast - California, Oregon, and Washington - were giving honorary degrees, to the students who were expelled from their university in 1942. So I thought wow. That's really nice. So I wrote to UBC. May. . . early May. 2008. And the first letter I got. . . well actually, I wrote to the president, and I think the president. . . sent my letter to the. . . Senate tributes committee? And the chair wrote to me and said that. . . the university only gives honorary degrees to individuals who have accomplished great things in their lifetime. So I said no no no no, that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking for an honorary degree, for. . . students who were expelled, from UBC in 1942, and. . . I want them to be acknowledged, and I want them to be, invited into your alumni association. So she kept - and then the next letter she wrote to me was, she said. . . the Japanese, Canadian - I think she called them Japanese students. Which annoyed me. . . said that, these students were not expelled, from UBC like. . . the students down south of the border. But they left because of circumstances they were in or something like that. So I thought - and then she said. . . also, staff and, faculty, of Japanese descent, were also sent away.

So I thought, well, this lady really doesn't know her history because. . . at that time, no Asians were allowed to be in the professions of any sort. So how could there be faculty and staff? So I started to educate her too, you know. But my problem with them, was. . . the lack of communication? And some of the. . . what do you call those secretaries and whatever. They kept saying, “oh we're working on it, we're working on it. As soon as we, you know, hear some news I'll let you know.” But I'm waiting and waiting and waiting. And so I thought at one time I thought maybe they're ignoring me. Because, they think I might just go away. And forget about this. But, I'm not that kind of person. So. . . I got the Japanese Canadian community involved. Because I wrote this explanatory letter in the Nikkei Voice? Which is the Japanese Canadian newspaper, in Toronto, and also to the Bulletin. And then, a lot of families of the former students, and also some of the students, who were still alive at that time, started contacting Tosh and myself. And so. . . you know. I kind of, awoke the sleeping giant? So the community got on board, and, later on I found out that a lot of faculty, at UBC were also working for me. But I didn't know this, at the time. Because they never said anything to me. And then, I started this. . . letter, not letter writing campaign, but. . . sign, what do you call that where they. . . sign their names. Um.

A petition?

Yeah, a petition.

Hm.

And then I got hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of names that kept coming to my mailbox. And then. . .I didn't use that at that time, because I thought maybe I could convince them without that. I thought at the, you know, I could use that later on? And nothing happened. And so I thought, okay. I am going to go to the media. Because if the media is on your side, they're very powerful. I don't want them to be against me, because, they're just as powerful that way. And the year before, I had gone to a women's conference. Of these really really, you know, highly achieved women. . . in Victoria. And I was one of the speakers there. And I met Patricia Graham, who was the editor in chief of the Vancouver Sun at that time. So I wrote to her and explained what my goal was, and she says, great. We'll go with it. So she had a reporter contact me, interviewed me, and he also asked if I knew of a student who would agree to be an interviewee? So I phoned Mits Sumiya, who. . . was, fortunately, very articulate. And uh, he agreed to be interviewed. By this reporter. And then I think he interviewed the chair of the Senate tributes committee. And then, a half-page article came out. In a few days. Well then, Laughs. it was - it was really, gratifying for me because, all of a sudden, this news is all across Canada. I get interviews from - you know, CBC, from NW, from different radio stations, TV stations, you name it, you know. The news was all across Canada. That's when UBC reacted. And another thing I'd like to say is, the editor and the reporters of the newspaper, the Ubyssey? They were SO good. They wrote, I don't know how many articles. In the Ubyssey about this. And, it - their message was, you know. You were culpable. Just do it. And so they were very helpful, I, I'm so grateful, even to this day.

So, anyway. . . I get this, email from the, executive assistant to President Toope. Saying, “Dear Mrs. Kitagawa. . .” Laughs. The Senate Tributes Committee had, you know, unanimously voted to honour the, 1942 students. And, they have three prongs to offer. One is to have a congregation. Special one. Another is to create an educational component, at UBC. And the third is digitization of historical documents, that they have, across Canada. So I thought, oh, hallelujah. You know? I really. . . I wasn't really, happy for myself. I was happy for those students who were still alive. Because when I phoned them all the next day. . . most of the message was, I don't believe this. I didn't phone you. . . you know, I didn't contact you because I didn't think it was real. They said, I never thought that this would happen in my lifetime. You know. So they were all very very happy. So the next thing was. . . where do you find these students? Where do you find their relatives? And luckily. . . one of the, one of the, nieces of the student, 1942 student had a list. Of a hundred and one or two. . . names. And. . . but where do you start, right? We don't have phone numbers. We don't know where they live. We don't know if they're dead or alive. So anyway, we went, Tosh and I went to UBC, and asked the associate registrar, Chris Eaton, and. . . at first, he was kind of. . . I think he was kind of, uncomfortable. But when he got into it, he was really great. He looked into all the yearbooks, all the records, everything. And helped us, find these people. And we found out that there were two or three names, that sounded very much like Japanese Canadian. And, one was Lithuanian and one was Jewish, in name. But, another person that really helped us, in finding these students was, the editor of the Nikkei Voice? Her name was Mika Fukuma. And I have to give her so much credit. She just worked - I mean, she had this, really difficult job being an editor of a newspaper, and yet she made time, to help us. So she found a lot of people. Made connections all over the place. So that they would contact us. And. . . they formed. . . tributes committee. At UBC. Headed by Shirley Nakata, who is the ombudsperson for students at UBC. And Alden Habacon, and his title was. . . something to do with. . . ethnicity and multicultural things. And. . . they asked us to be on the committee. Apparently there was some kind of a. . . some people didn't think that was, you know, a good idea because, it was almost like saying, “Are you going to let those, Laughs. troublemakers onto your tributes committee?” So everybody looked at this person and said, “Yes!” Laughs. So we were on there.

And, Tosh was, starting. . . January, second, second or third, he was on the phone and on the computer, every day. Every day until the convocation. From six o'clock on. And, that was his whole job. I mean, we didn't do anything else. We just, completely dedicated our time. To trying to find all these, either the students or a relative. And, at that time we found out that there were, twenty-one or twenty-three, students still alive. And when we asked, we asked for their, biographies and some photos and things. And, then. . . we. . . we were. . . like Tosh has all their biographies and photos and everything on his computer. And then, however, we found out that the youngest. . . student was eighty-nine years old and the youngest

✱

Oldest.

was ninety-six. And when we invited them all to the convocation. . . only ten were able to come. Because the rest were too frail. And I was so. . . so sad that they couldn't come. Because, that's. . . what they were dreaming about, to be able to, say, I graduated from UBC. But, they saw the ceremony. Because it was livecast? All across Canada? So I think they were quite emotional when, it happened. So, anyway. On March the 21st. . . the committee had a symposium where I explained the journey that I took, to this stage? And then on May the 30th, 19. . . I mean 2012, a convocation occurred. At the Chan Centre. It was so emotional that even the men, who were attending, who had attended. . . being, and were interviewed after the ceremony, they had tears in their eyes, they were so emotional. Yeah. But it was wonderful to see. . . those students. Tosh made signs, that said UBC welcomes, and then. . . put the names, - like, we went to the airport, to. . . welcome, each student separately, so I don't know how many times we went, to the airport. . . Rebeca laughs. But they were so happy. And they were all, either. . . put up by relatives, or, at St. John's College, at UBC. And. . . yes. And, I thought, that our job was done. But then they started - you know, the education component, is the Dean of Arts and the. . . now let's see. Pause. Dr. Farrar is. . . the provost. They came to the symposium and they promised, that Japanese Canadian history will be taught at UBC. In a new program called Asian Canadian, studies. But they changed that to Asian Canadian and Asian Migration Studies now. So, this year is the fifth anniversary, of the start. No no, the, honouring of the Japanese Canadian students is five years now. But. . . they were going to start this ACAM, which is you know the Asian Canadian Asian Migration Studies course, was supposed to start in 2013. But it didn't happen in 2013, it started in 20. . . 14. And, they have a special graduation for the students, at St. John's college, or, elsewhere on campus every year. This year was the fourth, fourth year? Of grad, and we had that at the Asian Centre, last month. And so. . . they're going to start, see, they worked, for the four years, they weren't really teaching the history of the Japanese Canadians. They were mostly teaching about the Chinese Canadians. So, Tosh wrote. . . well I don't know if we'd call it nasty. But anyway, a demanding letter.

You know, it was the Japanese Canadian students who, allowed you to create this program. Why aren't you teaching it? So, I think the first class. . . for Japanese Canadian, studies will be. . . January, of next year. Yeah. It was late in coming but at least it's coming. You know you have to keep, demanding from bureaucracy. If you're quiet they don't do anything. So anyway, I'm glad Tosh is that way. He - Laughs. he got results. Rebeca laughs. Yeah. So, anyway we're still, involved in UBC in so many ways, that. . . you know, at our age, I kind of feel tired? Because we don't have the physical strength and recovery as much. Yeah. So, I would like now to talk about, my sisters. I told you about my sister Alice who. . . now, you know she's eighty-nine years old today, and she lives in Gardena, California, where a lot of Japanese Americans live. And, she never renounced her Canadian citizenship. All these years that. . . she's lived in the States longer than she's lived in Canada. But she still keeps her, Canadian citizenship. Now Rose, is younger than me. She was always a brilliant, scholar. She never got anything lower than Honours. If she got an A, she thought it was a failure. So, anyway. All through school she was always a top student. Always a leader. She graduated as a valedictorian from the Salt Spring Island high school. And then she went into nursing - you know at that time, women, were told that they should either be a nurse, or, a teacher. We were, in that, we didn't have very much choices then. And some brave soul, you know, went into other professions, but. We did not. So Rose went to. . . Vancouver General, and got her RN there. And she worked a bit, and then she went to UBC and got her nursing degree. And then she um. . . worked in the, more in the administrative area at UBC after that, like teaching. And then she got a scholarship to go to McGill, University. And she did her master's in one year. And then she came back and started teaching the master's program at UBC. And she, apparently the program that she created? Is still being used, today. And, then. . . a few years later, she got a scholarship to go to Boston University. And she did that, master's in one year. Actually, you know, she would have made a really good doctor. But she didn't have that choice at that time. So anyway. . . she started teaching the master's program. But she made sure in her contract that she. . . would be allowed to teach the, students. You know, like, students, not just the master's program. Because she liked, being on the floor. And interacting with, you know the, people and the students. And then she became. . . she became the vice-president of the three UBC hospitals in nursing. From where she retired. Yeah. Now, my brother Richard, he graduated from UBC. . . when he was in high school, his. . . one of his teachers was interested in boxing. So he got Richard to do boxing. And he became BC's Golden Glove champion. And then he took him to Seattle, to fight, and he was all over the front pages, of the Seattle Times and the Seattle, well there were two big papers. And here's Richard's picture Laughs. on the front page of the sports section.

But anyway, and then when he got to UBC, he joined. . . the weightlifting, team. And he became the champion, I think it was the BC champion for his weight class. And. . . anyway, he graduated. He wanted to be a doctor. And he had a really really wealthy, white friend. And his white friend did not have, marks good as Richard's. But because his father donated to UBC he got in. And Richard did not get in. So anyway, after he graduated he. . . went into different, employment. And then, since our parents are getting older he thought well, I'll start a business on the island. So he started this, business in. . . repairing cars and fixing, smashed-up cars. And his business really grew. And the white competitors were very very, jealous of him? And angry, and tried to. . . do all the horrible things, and try to stop him, from. . . even. . . like, trying to close his business down. But then he persevered. But it got to the point, where the racism, and the horrible things they were trying to do to him, got to him. To the point where, even my parents. . . and he could not, deal with anymore. So, I contacted the Greater Vancouver Japanese Canadian, Human Rights Committee. And they came to help. And they, we put on a workshop about how to deal with this type of racism. And they had a professional counsellor there. And she was very helpful. And so, we. . . notified people on Salt Spring who were abusing us that, you know, you're not going to get away with this. So anyway, it just went on and on. . . it's a story in itself about the RCMP and, racism on the island, perhaps I could tell that later. But anyway, Richard became very very successful. And he. . . saw a lot of people who. . . who were, I wouldn't, I don't know if I could say destitute but you know like, homeless, and they had cars that were, you know, unless he did something to it, wouldn’t, you know, it wasn't operational? So he started doing, a lot of things free for them. Like fixing their cars, and bringing in trailers and things to his property? And letting people live in there? Otherwise they would have nowhere to live? And he started doing this and then. . . he got. . . you know. For, what he was doing, he got awards. He got an award from the. . . Lieutenant Governor at Government House, I think it was. . . that First Nations, Lieutenant Governor, I can't remember his name. Oh, anyway. And then he got the Citizen of the Year award, and he got the, Queen Elizabeth the second Golden Jubilee, medal, and, he got, he has a lot of awards, for his, for helping so many people. The biggest thing that he and Rose. . . contributed to the lives of the. . . poor people of Salt Spring. . . he donated a, piece of property that was worth 1.5 million dollars. They raised five million dollars to build the six million dollar low income housing. They call it Murakami Gardens right now. And, all these people who, who are living there would not have a place to live if it wasn't for that. It's a twenty-seven-unit complex. They have rooms for bachelors, two bedroom, one bedroom, family. . . area. And so. . . anyway. That was their contribution. . . to the community that once. . . you know. Did not support them.

So that's about. . . the story about Richard. He's still working, I mean, he doesn't have to work. Because he has - he's quite wealthy now. But he loves interacting with people. Just the way my mother was. They just love interacting with people. I think they would go stir-crazy if they didn't, have people to talk to. So, anyway, when Rose went home to the Island. . . the house, their house was. . . burnt by arson. I think this, fellow wanted to destroy them, totally. And the RCMP wouldn't look into it, the fire marshal wouldn't look into it. And we had about three people who witnessed what was happening. They saw these people with jerry cans. And. . . it was about five o'clock in the morning. And yeah, there's lots of. . . people who. . . witnessed this. But anyway. So the house was gone, all the memorabilia, the. . . heirlooms, everything's gone. They just got out with their lives. I have another sister who is older than me. Her name is Violet, and she is, she was mildly challenged. And nobody knew that she was challenged, because she spoke two languages, she wrote English, she could, read and write, and carry on a conversation like, an ordinary person. Yeah. She is now, in a care home. Because my sister Rose cannot, lift her anymore. And so. . . that was, another devastating, occurrence in our family. And so. . . I think I'll go to, Bruce. Bruce was our youngest brother, he was born. . . while we were in Rosebery incarceration camp. And he was born in the hospital at New Denver. It was five miles from Rosebery. Because we didn't have the, the nutrition that, you know babies should have and mothers should have, I think, his. . . he suffered from lack of calcium? And other nutrients that he needed, in his growing up years. But anyway, he went to UBC, and, he, after he graduated, he worked for a little while for someone, in the electronic field, and then he started to. . . he got into business of his own. And he. . . He called his business, Beam Riders. And, by the time he died, he had six stores. All over the place. And he had two daughters. And, one grandson. And. . . anyway, he. . . he died too early, he died when he was only sixty-four years old. And I think he died either, I think he died from. . . probably, because his body was so weak, died from a heart attack. Yeah. And so that was. . . you know, we said, you know, this isn't right. You know, he's the, last one born and the first to go? Yeah. But then, he has two daughters. . . one daughter has a son. He only saw. . . his grandson when he was. . . I think the last time he saw him, he was only one year old.

And then. . . Kimi became, they moved to. . . she never married. She just wanted a child. So she did get a child. And, she got her. . . she went to university, down in the States, and then she. . . when she went to Toronto she got her master's in social work. So that's what she's doing now. And her younger sister. . . went to UBC, and she was a top English student there. And everything she wrote, the professor put online for other students to, look at. And she became a poet. And she went to Concordia, and got her master's. Now she's in Toronto. And, one of - her very first poetry book. . . she got nominated for the Governor General's Award. She did not win, an elderly man won, but she came in second. So, she's still doing that, she's. . . writer in residence at U of T until a few months ago. But she teaches literature and poetry. Yeah. So that's his story. Which is short, and uh, kind of tragic in a way. Yeah. So I don't know what else. . . you have some questions now?

Yeah. Yeah, well I've been. . . So as I told you before, I've been taking notes, as you tell your stories, and, maybe what I'll do is I'll go. . . back right to the beginning, when I started taking notes? And. . . we can, get a little bit more detail on certain things, or, you know, delve into new, sort of questions. And so the first question I have, was actually based off of. . . a comment, you made before we started, the second part of the interview. Which was a. . . thought that you had about, the different types of losses that your, family had experienced. So maybe you can talk a bit, about that a little bit.

Alright, now, when people talk about, our incarceration, they. . . focus in on, the physical losses like, homes and property and, boats and whatever.

Mhm.

But, they don't realize, that the. . . the loss was, greater, on the psyche. Um, we lost friends, we lost. . . our community. . . We lost. . . education. We lost. . . a lot of. . . you know, our dreams were shattered. Um, because, the goal that we were working toward? Was no longer possible, after we were uprooted. Um. . . and then, for me, also, the loss of friendship. And also, you know, it really, affected the Japanese Canadian people psychologically. And, they tried to be white, after the war. You know, it was too painful. . . to look like a Japanese. They want to somehow cling to, somebody or something that was white. And so. . . about ninety-five percent of the people who went through incarceration, began to. . . intermarry with the white community. And so most of their children are, half. And then, in that way, it was destroying the community, the way we knew it. It was no longer a Japanese Canadian community. It was a. . . a combination now. It was neither Japanese, nor, Caucasian. It was something new that they created. Um, so. . . Tosh and I are one of the. . . few. . . people who chose to marry within, the Japanese Canadian, group. And so. . . and then I think a lot of people. . . are very silent?

In fact, I think that, that group that went through the incarceration, they're known as the, silent? Silent, community? Because, even when, we were having that convocation, some of the. . . children, who came to, pick up the diploma here said, I didn't know my dad was at university. I didn't know my mum was doing this, you know. They were totally ignorant, about their parents' history. So it was an eye-opening event. And so I. . . feel that, a lot of the victims, who survived, they were. . . they were ashamed. To be made victims. And they had a lot of pain, that they couldn't express. So I think that's why they remain silent. Whereas with my parents, they were just the opposite. They wouldn't stop talking about it, and they shared everything with us. That's why. . . you know we were always in communication with each other. They didn't think that because I was seven years old I was, you know, not capable of understanding. Like my dad. We were not allowed to sit at the table. . . unless my dad sat down first. And we were not allowed to leave the table, until he left. And that meant, an hour. . . at least an hour, sit down. And at that time. . . we talked. And that's why, you know, I, I know, a lot, about. . . about the incarceration that I wouldn't have known if they had not. . . you know, communicated with us in that way.

Mhm. Hm. Um. . . that sort of. . . I have other questions that would come before this, but, ties into a question about, perhaps stories that were passed down to you from your parents or grandparents that you didn't experience, on your own, during incarceration? Perhaps maybe when you were reunited with your, your father, if he. . . had talked about any of his experiences when he was separated.

Yes he did. Um. . . he said that he spent, you know, a couple of days, a couple of nights at Hastings Park, and was sent to Yellowhead. And. . . you know, he had. . . well, he had not lived with Japanese Canadian menN, for a long, long time, right? And then. . . he said it was so funny. Some of them, some, or, a lot of the men, were from poor families? Whereas he ate the best foods. And so. . . these men were so happy, that they were given steaks, and you know, things like that. And one day. . . they served liver. And my, dad knew what liver was, because my mum used to feed him that. And they were all saying oh, how good it is, how good it is, and so. After everybody had cleaned their plates, my dad stood up and said, “Do you know what you ate?” Both laugh. And he said, “that was liver.” And, Laughs. everybody started gagging! Both laugh. So he said that was SO funny. Laughs. But anyway he. . . when he was, moved to. . . Yellowhead Pass, they were. . . forced to live in these railway box cars? With bunkbeds, in, bunkbeds? And it was very crowded. And they didn't have washing facilities and things like that, so. And, for someone who had a bath every night. . . it was, it was a real. . . piece of suffering he had.

Hm.

And then. . . I guess his health became. . . started to deteriorate. Because what the men were doing was, with a pick and shovel, they were trying to build this road. And, I guess my dad hadn't really recovered from his operation somehow. And so they. . . put him into the kitchen. As a, kitchen helper. And. . . he learned to, wash dishes. Laughs. Which he had never done before. And he learned, to cook a few things. And set the table, and things like that. So that was a new experience for him.

And then in the springtime they were moved to live in tents instead of, railway boxcar. And then, I told you about, him. . . getting notice from the government that, they'll release him, if he went to the sugar beet farm. So then he left there. But you know, during, I think they were given, maybe Sundays off? So they used to climb the mountains around there. And they used, they used to find these beautiful, crystal clusters. Beautiful crystal clusters. And then he used to go and dig these. . . root of some kind of, tree? Small tree. And they had kind of bumps on them so they would sand it down somehow. Well they never had sandpaper, they, somehow, were able to do it, and they made vases and things like that. Just to, while away the time. And. . . yeah, he didn't really. . . you know, tell us day to day things. Just things that, he remembered as standing out in his memory, yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Okay. Um, one thing I was curious to hear, a little bit more about, was. . . this, I guess what school, was like? In Salt Spring, before the war? Um, you were mentioning that, and you were quite young at the time, but. That you would go, and then basically just come back home again? But. . . yeah, maybe if we could, learn a little bit more about what the school situation was?

Okay. In 1941. . . a new school was built. And the Japanese Canadian community contributed either money, or labour to build that school. And, when it opened in, '41. . . you know, all the Japanese Canadian students were there, right? Attending. And my sister, and, my two sisters. My two older sisters, and. . . I was enrolled there. I think. . . because I was asthmatic, I missed a whole year. So I, at seven years old, I should have been in grade two, but I was in grade one. Um. . . and even, during grade one, I missed a lot of school, because my asthma would come back, in school so I would have to go home. And, my sister, Vi and I used to walk, she was way ahead of me in the grade. But. . . we used to walk to school. . . it was two miles from our house. To the school. Every day. And we used to also walk to Sunday school on Sunday. So the only time we didn't walk the two miles was Saturday. Yeah. So, Vi and I would walk really really quickly because, if we got to a certain point on the road, a gentleman would be going to work. And if we were there, he would pick us up. But if we were not there at that spot, and we were just, a few feet away, he would just take off. Both laugh. He wouldn't wait for us! Laughs. So we would run like, like a horse and, Laughs. try to get there as fast as we could. So anyway. Pause. School was, kind of normal. At that time.

Hm.

Um. . . kids were kids. Vi and I used to take, really really. . . outstanding lunches. Like my mum would put in, maybe roasted chicken, and vegetables and all kinds of really good stuff. And all the kids would come around us at lunchtime. “Can I trade you with my peanut butter sandwich” - or Rebeca laughs. or jam and butter sandwich or something like that,

No way!

So Vi and I would have to hide. Laughs.

Oh, no.

Laughs. To, to eat our lunches. Both laugh. And then. . . my sister, you know, really got along well, with, her. . . classmates. Until. . . the day Pearl Harbor was bombed. And the next day when she went to school, the teacher pointed at her and said, Alice started the war. And everybody looked at her. You know, I mean, all eyes are on her?

And, one teacher wouldn't come to school. Because she said that the, the Japanese submarine was. . . I think she came from Vancouver Island, on the ferry. Uh, would bomb, the ferry. So, she couldn't come. And then, they started abusing her physically. One day she was going, in the start, out of the school to go home? And. . . she saw this pile of rocks. And she thought oh, that's strange. But then she walked by it, and started walking home. Well she used to take the shortcut through the forest. And then, a bunch of boys appeared and started stoning her. She said she was hit all over her body, her head, everything. And she started bleeding, you know. And she was a fast runner, so she. . . was able to get away. You know, and, um. But she didn't, go running into the house and crying to mum. She went to the, chicken house. And. . . washed all the blood away. And she covered up, you know, all the wounds she had with her sleeve and everything and. . . she washed her hair part and everything so, Mum didn't know she was hurt. And she just went in as if, it was everyday thing. And then. . . couple of days, oh, and then, when she went back to school the next day, some of the boys jammed her face into the, water fountain. And she said, luckily she didn't lose her tooth. But then, within a few days, we were not allowed to go to school anymore. We were prisoners in our own, on our own property. And the. . . our Anglican minister told us not to come. You know, he didn't want us, in his church. And we were all, baptized Anglican, right? And so that was, our experience, as far as school and church is concerned.

Hm.

We went to church every Sunday. You know. Took part in everything. And the Japanese Canadian community contributed the organ? To the church, helped to build it. And so, anyway. . . I'm going to go a little bit ahead on that church thing. When we got back to Salt Spring Island, in '54, the first visit, one of the first visitors that my mother had, was this Anglican minister. Pause. He said he came to tell her. . . not to attend, his church, because. . . his congregation and, he, feel that we were evil people. So, at that moment, we all left the Anglican church. Yeah. So I told that story to, the bishop. Last year. In Vancouver. Yeah.

Hm.

Mhm.

So when you were, before you were no longer allowed to go to, school or church,

Mhm.

Um, was it mostly, Caucasian kids that were at the school at that time?

Oh yeah. No, no, no.

Yeah.

There were. . . few scatterings of Japanese Canadian.

Yeah. Mhm.

I mean, there were - most of the Japanese Canadians there were young people, so there were quite a few students there.

Okay.

Yeah.

Hmm.

You know, like, the class wasn't half, white and half Japanese Canadian, but. There were enough,

Right.

-Japanese Canadian students there.

I see. Um. . . let's see. Oh, you mentioned, in a previous story that you told. . . that when you went to board the Princess Mary with your family, that there weren't many goodbyes? Was that reflective, of the neighbourhood, and. . . I guess that, brought a wider question to me of what the neighbourhood was, was like, leading up to the war.

Well, you know, all these people. . . that my parents were interacting with, and all the students that we were interacting with at school, and at church. . . because they weren't there, to bid us goodbye. . . I thought they were either, afraid of us, or. . . they really hadn't, accepted us? As part of their community? Maybe they were just tolerating us. I don't know. But. . . no. They weren't there.

Hm.

But the, agent for the. . . Custodian was there.

Hm. Was this, Gavin Mouat?

Gavin Mouat.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah.

I was actually going to ask you if you ever. . . you know in later years, ran into him, or ever heard anything about him, or.

Well, um. When my sister came, to visit us, from Chicago, when her son was one. . . she went, to, Gavin Mouat's, real estate office. See, what happened, is, he took advantage of his position, and he acquired, you know, that six hundred and forty acres? And, a few of the other. . . properties that were really, valuable. And. . . he had the Secretary of State, transfer the properties to the real estate company.

Hmm.

Yeah. But anyway, he - my sister, Alice, went to see him. And, she said, “Gavin. Do you know who I am?” And he said, “no.” So she said, “well I'm Alice Murakami.” And she, he looked at her, kind of stunned? And so, she started telling him, all the things, that we suffered. And he said to her, “Alice, I didn't do this to you. The government did.” So that was his answer. And, you know when we got back to the island. . . my parents paid, for the property, in cash. Like, my mother and father wanted him to know, that, we had money. It wasn't on a piece of cheque or anything. She want - they wanted him to see. To count out all the money. And so, what he did was. . . started, telling people on the island, that the Murakamis came and they paid for, cash for, the property. And so. . . He was saying, I wonder how they got the money. And so, a few days later, a Revenue Canada man comes to my mother's door. And he said, the people of Salt Spring Island want to know how you got that money to buy this property. And so my mother said. . . just go and talk to my lawyer in Lethbridge and he will explain to you how we got this money. And then he went away.

Hmm.

But, the nerve of him. Or, nerve of Gavin. You know.

Right.

So it went around the island.

Hm.

That my mum and dad had paid.

Mhm.

Cash. In a brown paper bag - this great big, brown paper bag full of, thousands of dollars.

Mhm.

Yeah.

Hmm. Interesting.

Mhm.

Sad, actually.

Mhm.

Um. I had a. . . question because I heard you tell a story before and actually we, we briefly talked about it, during lunch, but. Um. . . some of the experiences you had with some of the items, that your family. . . lost when you had to leave, Salt Spring. I know there was one story about, plates, but also some other, appliances and that kind of thing.

h yes, um. I don't know if you know about the Bird Commission. But, my father had to go to Lethbridge to this, commission office and, there was an interviewer. And, his Japanese, I know, was not very good. Because, whatever he was. . . telling my father and grandfather. . . it just made me feel that, you know he was just going through the motion. And my dad, didn't understand what the heck he was saying. And so, some of the answers that were given by my grandfather and father, didn't make any sense to me. And on the list that was. . . that I have, right now, was, there was nothing of value, on that list. Because, they were supposed to - my dad and grandfather were supposed to write down all the things they left behind? Well, there's nothing on that list. Because, when the people, when the Bird Commission people went, you know, to look. . . no I guess it's the, Custodian of Enemy Agent, I think, was sent to all the different homes, to find out what was there. After we left, but there was nothing, of value there. And it's not listed on the, Bird Commission report.

When we got back to the Island, we were told by, there were only five people that came to welcome us when we got to the Island. One of the. . . A couple of those men told us that, soon as the boat left, the harbour, there were, trucks going around, all over. Ransacking the houses, and taking, things out of the houses. So that's why it wasn't there. And when, we got back in 1954, I took my mum. And we went to this antique store. And my mum said, oh, there's my dad's, dining room set. You know, it's the oak table, the round table, with, all the chairs and uh, the buffet and hutch and. . . and. And then, she said, oh. . . there's this, there are the brass beds that were left behind. And, you know, she was looking around and they're all there. And then one day, when my sister was visiting from Los Angeles, she took my mum to a garage sale. And, you know everything was lined up on, you know, on the table? So, Mum was looking around. And she eyed this. . . china set, of dishes. That, they had packed away. When they, when we, left. And Mum says, “those are my dishes!” And then. . . my mum was really outspoken. She went up to the woman and said, “Those are my dishes! You must have stolen them,” she said. Laughs. And the lady said, “get off my property! I don't, ever want you to come back on my property!” And, sent them away. But, Mum said, if she was able to see everything that was on the table, she probably. Probably would have seen more. Of what she left behind.

Hmm.

Like you know, she had the beautiful armoire? That's not on the list. Somebody took it away.

Hm.

Yeah.

Hm.

Yeah.

That's a - must have been a very strange feeling.

Yes!

To see your possessions. . .

Yes.

Yeah. Hm.

Yeah.

Another, um. I think, important conversation, a very strong, conversation, that's come up through Landscapes, is, the separation of families? And, I was just curious? Uh, as to. . . how much time had actually, passed between, when your father was taken by the RCMP and when you received that first letter, to, to know that he was OK.

Okay. He left, March the 17th. And we got to Greenwood, just a minute, in Greenwood, that was. . . about the middle of May, I think. May or June. Of that year. Of 1942? It must have been about. . . June. Yes. So that's what. . . March, April, May,

Almost four months?

About four months.

Wow.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Until then, we didn't know. If he was, dead or alive.

It's an, unbelievable amount of time. To wait.

Mhm.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Hm. Long pause. Just looking through my questions here. . . Long pause. Hm. I was wondering about, so. Through these years where you had been, moved from place to place and had to work for, family to family. I don't, I don't know if there's a. . . if you'd be comfortable answering this question, but, do you remember the names of any of the, families that you, worked for, or. You mentioned that the, sort of the character of, one family, but maybe a little bit more about those people that you were working for? Or your family was?

Okay. When my father went to, the, family that, my grandparents were working on? That was, Keeler farm. Keeler. K-E-E-L-E-R. And then, the farm that we were on was Lolavie Jensen's. The first time. The second time we went, was Mr. Bonderuk. He was an, immigrant. Farmer. And then we went to the Spencer farm. Spencer, Mr. Spencer was an elder in the, Mormon church. Pause. I have to tell you about, the incident my, brother Richard, he was still a young kid, um. He, he wanted to go to church. Because we were. . . you know, we, we always go, went to church every Sunday, so. He got all dressed up himself, and he went to church. To the Mormon church. And then when he got to the entrance, somebody told him, you can't come in to our church. And told him to go home. So, anyway. And when we lived in Cardston, that was a totally Mormon town. And, all the students once a week went to church. And just two of us, in our class – another, Caucasian girl and I. We didn't belong to the Mormon church, so we were left in school by ourselves, in our classroom. Yeah. So that was an experience too.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Hm.

So, let's see. Um. . . yeah, the last, farmer we worked for. . . was, Mr. Spencer. And, the. . . grocery store, owner, that tried to help us, his name was Mr. Ririe. R-I-R-I-E. Um. . . he was the only one that really had empathy for us. Yeah.

Hm.

So, let's see. Um. . . yeah, the last, farmer we worked for. . . was, Mr. Spencer. And, the. . . grocery store, owner, that tried to help us, his name was Mr. Ririe. R-I-R-I-E. Um. . . he was the only one that really had empathy for us. Yeah.

Hm.

You know, my dad had to do so many menial tasks that. . . you know, when he was born I'm sure he never, thought he'd have to do that kind of task.

Mhm.

Yeah.

Mhm.

Yeah.

Hmm.

You know, his parents even, sent him. To learn how to play the piano? And the violin? And the violin. . . was one of the items that we had left. In fact my sister had hidden, it up in the attic. Hoping that, it would never be found. But it was gone. Yeah.

Hm.

Yeah, so I, I sometimes want to, write something in the, local paper there. Lost. Laughs. You know, this violin. Yeah.

Hm.

So anyway. Um. . . so, that's the only people that we worked for. Yeah. And, I would say most of them were quite civil. Except, Lolavie Jensen. Yeah. He didn't - I don't think he considered us as humans, really. Yeah.

Hm.

Mhm.

Um. . . moving forward in time, during the time of the Redress, so this is much later, but, the first, you know, official recognition, of any of this history. . . you mentioned some of the, I guess, the ways that you were connected, and also, what came after that with human rights? But I was just wondering about your. . . you know, what were you feeling, during that time, when, when Redress was, in motion?

In motion?

Mhm.

Well, both of us really really, tried to help as much as we can. In any, even the smallest way? Because it was fighting for justice, right? Yeah. And. . . we did, things in our, very small way. You know nothing like, what the Redress committee was doing. They did all the hard work. And we are so grateful to them, for persevering. And not giving in to. . . you know all those politicians. Yeah.

Hm.

You know after the Redress. . . I think everybody felt. . . almost like a, load was fallen off? To me, it was almost like. . . you know, I still had this. . . sticker on my forehead saying, 'enemy alien'. And when Redress came, I almost felt as if, I could take that off? You know. And. . . yeah, it was kind of a freeing, experience? Yeah. I. . . when. . . my mother, I was there, on the island, when my mother's cheque came, you know, in that roll. Mum just took the cheque and just threw it, she says. . . this doesn't pay for all the sufferings we went through. “What is this?” So the money didn't mean anything to her because she really didn't need the money, you know. Um. . . so, I, I don't know how other people felt. About the money. Yeah, because you know we lost seven years of our lives, and went through all that hell. You know, there was no mercy for us. Um. . . I sometimes wonder, how people could behave that way? What drives them to be so cruel? You know. We talked about. . . this is human nature, I mean, you know. Um. . . I mean, everybody's not like that. But this is the nature of man. That's why war is, you know, continues. Yeah. So, it's very unfortunate that we're going through this same thing again. In the United States. Yeah.

Hm. I think one thing that I've. . . taken away from your. . . life story is the role of education in later years, and I think that's very central to Landscapes as well. And then I guess that ties to, the last question I have, which would be. . . you know for those who are. . . becoming aware of this history, perhaps through this project but perhaps in other ways, if there was one thing that you could say to somebody who's learning about it, what would that be?

Well, what the government tried to do, even after the war, was, write a history, with a piece missing. They didn't want that part, known. So, without the Japanese Canadian history being, understood, taught, and made - you know, made, aware, by all, all of Canada, Canada's history is not complete. There's a missing chapter. And so. . . what Tosh and I are, trying to do and my sister, also. . . is to educate as many people, as we can. . . about, the incarceration, the uprooting, dispossession. . . dispersal, deportation, of Japanese Canadians. Um. . .that's. . . what I would, like, the, audience, or, individual person, to know. Just the other day. . . my sister and I want to change, a road, on Salt Spring Island. This is the Iwasaki property. It's known as uh, they - put a road through that property and called it Sunset Drive. Well we want to have it called, Iwasaki Drive. And so the Clears throat. man from the government who, from the transportation, department phoned me, and he said, well why do you want to change the name? So I thought this is a good time to educate him. And as I was telling him our, the story of the Japanese Canadians, he said, “I can't believe it. I can't believe what you're telling me.” And, so I kept telling him more and more. And, I said, “that's why, you know, we want that name change.” And so. . . I think he is quite empathetic, of the reason we want to change that name. My sister is, quite different from me. She said that, if they don't change that name, I'm going to go and, put a sign up. “Stolen Drive”. Laughs. So, anyway. There's another, road called Sharpe Road where a lot of Japanese Canadians lived. We, we lived on Sharpe Road. And. . . I don't know, we might go after that road too.

Hm.

Yeah. I don't know what we would call it, but uh. Definitely, not Sharpe Road.

Hmm.

Yeah. So, yeah. You know, the reasons, I started telling our story, was, when I was forty-eight years old I went back to UBC. And one of the courses I took was Asian Studies. But this was all about, China and Japan and India. You know, it wasn't anything about Canada. And what, my professor was a. . . a Jewish. . . man? He lost his family in the Holocaust? The last image he, saw of his mother, was a German. . . military man, grabbing her hair and dragging her away. That's the image he, has in his mind. So he encouraged me. I don't know how he picked me out of the whole. . . I don't know it was a huge class in a theatre? He picked me out and said – well he assigned, four topics. And he said, I want you to tell me about, your experience. In the, well he called it internment because everybody calls it internment. So anyway, I wrote, my first essay about what happened to our family. That's where I started. I'm still in contact with the professor. He wrote a book, about his childhood. But not after. But when he still tells me about his mother. . . you know, he. He cries. Yeah. So. Anyway. That was my beginning. And I'm so grateful to Professor Goldman. His name was Rene Goldman. Yes. . . it's kind of freeing, to be able to tell your story. When I first started to tell it, I was so emotional. My voice was always shaking. But now I, you know I'm fine, because I've. . . told the story so many times? That. . . yeah, it. It is, cathartic. Yeah.

Hm.

Yeah.

Well, I want to thank you for, you know sharing it again today and, especially thank you for all of the work and the support, that you and Tosh both give through the Community Council.

Mhm.

Um. . . and, yeah, just for so patiently supporting the students and also the, all the different staff involved with Landscapes and. Um, I'll ask again if there's, anything I didn't ask or that you didn't cover, that you want to add, but. I've gone through the questions that I have, and, again, thank you so much.

Okay. Whenever I give a speech I always start with, from the time, British Columbia joined Confederation, yeah. Tosh and I have an hour, talk to give to the. . . I think it's a heritage group. In Vancouver. In September, we have to do that. So, you know, when we have that much time, I, I could go into deeper. All the information that, gives a background? Of why this happened, yeah. So, do you want me to send you some photos?

Sure.

Okay.

Yeah.

Or is that necessary?

Uh, that's totally up to you.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Alright.

Okay. So shall we - end it there?

Sure.

Sure. Okay. Undertone. Just press - stop here. . .