Thomas Hiroshi Madokoro (with daughters Wanda and Linda Madokoro), interviewed by Rebeca Salas, 17 July 2017

Thomas Hiroshi Madokoro (with daughters Wanda and Linda Madokoro), interviewed by Rebeca Salas, 17 July 2017

Abstract
Thomas Madokoro tells his life story with his two daughters Wanda and Linda present. He begins with where he was born in Steveston and where he grew up primarily in Tofino as a fisherman. He and his four siblings spent time in Vancouver for schooling and he returned to Tofino to work at the co-op and later the saltery until being uprooted during the war. After being moved to Hastings Park, Thomas volunteered to go to the road camps in Ontario along with his brother and many other fisherman. He spent the next 10 years there working odd jobs. The rest of his family was interned in Popoff until the end of the war and his brother John could afford to have the rest of the family move to Toronto. Thomas was offered a job by BC Packers to return to the west coast and fish with money up front to provide a boat and a bank loan to aid the transition. His views on Redress are that it was appreciated but fail to make up for the hardships and treatment suffered, especially in comparison to the Japanese Americans.
This oral history is from an interview conducted by the Oral History cluster of the Landscapes of Injustice project.
00:00:00.000
Rebeca Salas (RS)
This is Rebeca Salas. I'm here with the Landscapes of Injustice project, and I'm doing an interview with Thomas Madokoro, and we're here at his home in Langley, ███████.
Wanda Madokoro (WM)
The transcript is not always clear which daughter is speaking. In those instances, we are alternating their names.
Okay, so why don't we start with where you were born and then we'll just hear a little bit about your life. I'll take a seat here.
Linda Madokoro (LM)
The transcript is not always clear which daughter is speaking. In those instances, we are alternating their names.
Okay, so you go ahead.
TM
Ah, born in Steveston. 1920. That right?
RS
Yes. Both laugh.
TM
Then we like laughs moved to Tofino in 19-, I think 1920s-something. No. I was born in Steveston in 1920.
WM
Was it two years later? You left when you were two, right?
TM
Yeah, I was up the coast. I think that was two years later we moved up to Tofino. And that was only a small village when it was so young, all combined. That's white people and Japanese. Yeah.
LM
And what was it like there?
TM
It was, it was nice. But we had no electricity, no phone. Laughs. Real dark ages. All laugh.
WM
And what were your parents doing for work when you moved there?
TM
He was a fisherman, and mother was a housekeeper. But dad died in 19-, what year was it that he died? 1922? Or was that right? 1927? Laughs.
LM
About 1927. Laughs. 1930s sounds like. Yeah.
TM
Yeah. So after that, after dad died, my brother John came back from Cumberland where he was attending high school. And he started fishing to make a living. He was only fifteen years old. He took over the boat and he started fishing. And we somehow got by. Then another started making tofu. They had Japanese Sato (?), Chinese laughs for a living. He made tofu every week, so neighbours, out of generosity, bought one or two each. To keep us laughs that's how we lived.
WM
So he was fishing, but also selling tofu? That he made?
TM
Yeah, my brother's fishing but he wasn't making enough to make a living, so mom started, neighbours felt often, so they bought tofu whether they liked it or not. All laugh. He used to deliver that thing around, like Ucluelet, all up and down the cost. Like Clayoquot?
LM
Right.
TM
That island across from Tofino. There was about eight Japanese families living there. So he and I used to drive there in the car-canoe-over there to island. Half of that tofu. Laughs.
WM
So you were making deliveries?
TM
Yeah.
LM
Oh, interesting.
TM
Laughs. No we were selling, but they weren't good enough to buy tofu. Yeah. And I wasn't very good student, you know.
WM
No?
TM
I didn't go to school at all.
LM
Did your brothers or sisters go at all?
TM
No the school teacher I had, Miss Hacking (?), she was from England. I think she had just graduated from the English Nova (?) school. And she came over to Tofino to a small school, one that just one room, one building. And two teachers. One was from grade eight, five or something like that. Laughs. I didn't get along with her very good. She used to give me a strap every day.
WM
Ooo.
00:05:14.000
00:05:14.000
TM
Laughs. We were good friends after that. When we grew up, she married a local, a local man, and stayed in Tofino all her life.
LM
This was your teacher?
TM
Yeah that was my teacher. And then I seen her all the time when I went to buy gas. And her husband used to sell gasoline, on a float. Yeah, we were friends after. But laughs she really enjoyed slapping me. All laugh.
WM
I guess you put it in the past, eh?
TM
Yeah. And then 1913, no not 1913, but when I was 13 I went up to Skeena, Prince Rupert, to help my uncle fish unit, the Skeena River. That was my first experience fishing. Net fishing. I was a troller, but then this was net fishing. I went up there for three years, up to Rupert. Every summer I would laughs quit school and go up there. Stay for six months. Yeah. Then when I got about 17, I started working in the Saltry, the Saltry Ten Plant (?), salting dog salmon.
LM
Okay.
TM
It's a fish that we call dog salmon. But it's salmon. We'd usually dress it, clean it, and put salt over it. So salty laughs I think in Japanese they'd soak it in the water and took all the salt out of it before they'd eat it. But it was good eating fish. I liked it.
WM
Oh yeah?
TM
Laughs. The salted fish. Yeah. When I first got to that, my uncle decided to retire to Japan in 1939 I think. So '38. So he sold me his license, his boat license, and the co-op license for the co-op share. For six hundred dollars. And I got his boat. You know, this old twenty-eight foot, you this young laughs. Yeah that was the first boat I had. So miserable. I sunk it once. All laugh.
LM
How old would you have been when you got your first boat then?
TM
Sixteen
WM
Sixteen years old.
TM
And I think sixteen, seventeen. The fifteen, not fifteen. Sixteen. Because the war started, what 19-, when was that war?
LM
1942?
TM
No the other one. 1942, yeah. When the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour. I was three years fishing, then. Doing pretty good. But they really confiscated our boat right away. They told us one day, “No. You can't go fishing.” It was confiscated and then they decided to take the boat to pauses Delta, BC. You know that. Just below New Westminster. They took all the boats and just tied it up on the dyke. Laughs. I guess first week, half the boat had sunk. Laughs. No we had to take the boat ourself. It was a navy fisherman, from the navy, looking after us. Laughs. It was quite an experience, taking the boat. Most of the guys never been back, to Ucluelet, on the boats. So we're going to New Westminster. So you had to have somebody that knows the course. Then we got as far as the Commana, noTachina (?) , that was nighttime, eh? And the lighthouse of the Comanna (?) , they turn the light off. For navigation. All the guys got lost. They didn't have a direction to go. And some of the boys got shot at, near the bay. Across the bay. That's across Boundary. That Indian bridge, or navy village. Nobody got hurt but they got shot at.
00:11:17.000
00:11:17.000
WM
Who was shooting?
TM
American Navy, I think. Or Coast Guard.
LM
Oh.
TM
Laughs. We weren't supposed to be on the other side, we were supposed to be on the Canadian side. One person died in the, when we go from, what do you call that? Gee, I forgot. Chuckles.
WM
That's okay.
TM
We'd go across Georgia Straight to New Westminster. The one guy got lost and he was going Bellingham. They found him next day. His throat was slashed. That's what they say. The Japanese they say the Americans slashed his throat. But I think it was just a, they wouldn't dare cut his throat. I think he died from fright. But two different versions of the-
LM
Of the same story.
TM
Yeah, different story. He was low man, anyways.
RS
So when you were, at this time, your boat was being taken away but you were going with them, or?
TM
Yeah I was going with the boat. Taking the boat.
RS
Okay. So when they took your boat, they made you drive it there?
TM
Drive it down.
RS
I see.
TM
Yea, before they drive. Nighttime/daytime. They didn't give us any food. Laughs. Yeah when we got to the nearest, they tied to boat up. And that was it. They didn't know the depths of the boat or anything, so they tied it all on each side. One boat was up dry, the next one would be lean against each other, so quite a few of those boats sunk. Water all around the boat. Yeah. I don't know what they did with the boat. My boat was sold, they sold the boat to somebody. Some of the good boats were sold. But most were junk, the cannery boats, so they didn't give them any money at all. No money.
RS
So you didn't get any money?
TM
No. Laughs. Americans they gave the, they took the boat and everything, but they gave them back right away, eh. Difference between Canada and the United States.
RS
So then what happened? You were there, you dropped off your boat, and then where did you go?
TM
Go home.
RS
You went home?
TM
Yeah, to Tofino. And then they laughs someone says you have twenty-four hours to get out of Tofino.
RS
How did you get back there?
TM
On the train.
WM
On the train.
TM
From Nanaimo, to Port Alberni. Then we got on the boat and came back to Tofino. there's only boat that made the trips up and down the coast. Yeah.
RS
And who was it that came to take the boat away, but also tell you to leave in twenty-four hours?
TM
The Mounties.
00:15:07.000
00:15:07.000
RS
Mounties.
TM
YEAH
RS
I see.
TM
Yeah, when we got home, we were sitting there and the Mounties reported to the Coast Guard, not the Coast Guard but, I don't know who they notified to get out, but we had to get 24 pounds, no 100 pounds of stuff, clothing and bedding, and get out in 24 hours. And the boat was coming back down again, so they stopped at Tofino to pick us up. Laughs. And they had, in the beginning she was kicked out of Tofino, and then people were having a very big party.
LM
Who was having a party?
TM
And there was loud music. And only one person came down to say goodbye. It was an old lady from, Mrs. McLeod. Laughs.
WM
Who was Mrs. McLeod?
TM
She was the fishing officers wife.
RS
And who was having a party? Was it the neighbours?
TM
The locals.
RS
Oh really. Mostly white locals?
TM
Yeah. Laughs.
RS
Yeah?
TM
She was old, but she didn't go to the party. The music was so loud, I could hear it on the wharf.
RS
Right. Was she a white lady?
TM
Oh yeah.
RS
Yeah?
TM
She was a Scottish woman. She come from Scotland when they, when all the good jobs became available, the Scottish and English, they got the first job. Lifeboat skipper, lifeboat engineer. Laughs. Telegraph operator. Postmasters. Laughs. None went to the locals. All went to the immigrants coming from Great Britain.
RS
What was, the house that you had to leave, what was your house like in Tofino?
TM
Yeah it was just a four room shack.
RS
Okay. And how many, I learned about your brother John, but did you have other brothers and sisters?
TM
Yeah.
RS
Yeah? What were their names?
TM
The other brothers and sisters were in Vancouver.
RS
Oh.
TM
They go to school, like a house, what do you call those? School girls.
LM
Right
TM
They used to go to school the one day, in the afternoon they'd do work around the house, cleaning up, washing, or something. Yeah that was pretty popular for those people who lived in, you know, Tofino, Ucluelet, and all that. I thought I seen that.
WM
You did, I think you got it.
RS
So before the war, your sisters were living in Vancouver and you and your brother were living in Tofino?
TM
Yeah.
RS
Okay. How many kids were there?
TM
I think there was five. Three sisters, and two brothers. So six, is it? Six I think. Is that right?
LM
Laughs. I can't say. Wait, there's auntie Kuni (?), there's auntie Ai (?).
TM
Yeah
WM
Who's your other sister? Thomas laughs. You only have two sisters and three brothers.
TM
Yeah, yeah that's right.
LM
Uncle Johnny, Uncle Yosh, and-
TM
Yes, three. And Mitch. Four.
WM
Yeah, so there's six in your family. So there's two girls and-
TM
Five. Five kids.
LM
Okay, wait a sec. Uncle Josh, Uncle Johnny, Uncle...
TM
Yeah, I think it's five.
WM
Okay.
TM
Three brothers and two, the sisters.
LM
Yeah okay.
RS
We can always check later. All laugh. Don't worry. So you had the boys fishing on the island-
TM
Yeah.
RS
-and then the girls, were they in Powell Street area? Or where were they in Vancouver?
TM
Nagi (?), you know where Nagi (?) is in Vancouver?
RS
No, I don't.
TM
It's-
WM
Oh, Kerrisdale.
RS
Okay, yes. Kerrisdale area. Okay. Right, right.
00:20:09.000
00:20:09.000
TM
Laughs. Yes. Go to school. Laughs. I didn't go to school.
RS
Yeah.
TM
I went there, but I didn't learn.
RS
Oh. Laughs. Do you remember, if you did go, even if you weren't you know-
TM
I went to high school, but, interesting that I didn't learn anything.
LM
That's typical, dad.
RS
Do you remember who was there? Was it a lot of mostly white children, or was there a good mix of Japanese-Canadian children?
TM
It was mostly Japanese at the high school in King Edward. I think, King Edward? No.
WM
Yeah, it was King Edward.
TM
Yeah one was the model school, so public school.
LM
Yeah it was King Edward.
TM
Eh?
WM
It was King Edward.
TM
King Edward.
LM
Yeah.
TM
Yeah. That's the high school, wasn't it?
WM
Yep.
TM
Yes. It was 50/50 in this area. 50/50, I think.
RS
This was high school?
TM
Yeah.
RS
This was your high school? Or your sister's high school?
TM
Huh?
RS
Your high school or your sister's high school?
TM
No I was in a different high school, but didn't learn anything.
LM
Oh wait a sec, you lived in Vancouver for a while, right?
RS
Yeah that's what I'm wondering.
WM
Because, because grandma used to walk down to False Creek and sell tofu there. Right?
TM
Yeah.
LM
Right, so you must have gone to the high school in Vancouver?
TM
Yeah in Vancouver.
WM
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
RS
Okay.
LM
So you didn't always live in Tofino.
TM
No.
WM
Yeah.
TM
After high school, I went to Tofino.
RS
Okay, so, so you went from Steveston to Tofino, but then you must have also stayed in Vancouver before you went to Tofino?
TM
Yeah, couple days.
RS
Okay.
TM
Yeah, couple three years.
RS
Oh three years?
TM
I think so.
RS
Before you went to Tofino?
TM
Yeah.
RS
Okay.
TM
The last time I went to Tofino, I got a job at the BC, BC, the packers. The Japanese co-op.
RS
Right.
TM
They had a co-op there. They gave us a job, young fella you know. So I started working for the co-op, then the saltery, yeah I never did go back to Tofino until, after I got the boat. Until I got the fishing boat. Then was 19-, 1921? No, I was fishing in-
RS
1931, maybe?
TM
No, 19-
LM
'41?
RS
'41, yeah, actually.
WM
Maybe '41. That would make you twenty-one. That would make you twenty-one.
TM
Twenty-one?
LM
Yeah.
TM
That's when the war started.
RS
Mhmm. So the war started when you got your first boat?
TM
Yeah. No. Three years after I got my boat.
RS
Okay. Okay. Do you remember much about Vancouver, when you were there?
TM
No.
RS
Just a little bit about school?
TM
No.
RS
No? Thomas laughs.
WM
Yes he does.
TM
Huh?
LM
You used to live on 4th and Alberta. Remember you used to live on 4th and Alberta?
TM
Yeah, 4th and Alberta.
RS
Okay. Thomas laughs. What do you remember about there?
TM
Nothing.
RS
Nothing?
TM
It was just Japanese, and people working at the sawmill there, at False Creek? Yes we used to .... saw mill operating. Most of the Japanese would work there, at the saw mill. Other, I don't know. There's no job for us. Only place I ever worked was in Tofino. Laughs. Co-op, getting paid. It wasn't much of a laughs and claps... terrible. I forget everything.
RS
That's okay. So let's go, so you, the last story you told when we were approaching the war.
TM
Yeah.
RS
You brought your boat back and then you had to go back to Tofino.
TM
Oh yeah.
RS
And then you had to leave-
TM
To get out.
RS
Yeah. So we ended with that one person came to say goodbye, and then what was the next step, after that?
TM
We went to Exhibition Park.
RS
Okay.
TM
That's where they keep the Japanese, all us in, what do you call those? Pig sty, those. Where they kept the animals?
RS
Mmm. Like at where the PNE is now?
TM
At the Exhibition.
RS
Yeah.
TM
I only stayed for nineteen days, there. I volunteered to go to Ontario. They said we were going to the road camp, not road camp, the internment camp. I went to Ontario. Road camp. That's where I spent the next ten years. Doing nothing.
RS
What was it like there?
00:26:02.000
00:26:02.000
TM
Ontario's good. But for a guy like me, who had taken nothing.
RS
Were you working?
TM
Yeah, I was working alright. I made jewelries in one year. Gold rings and all that. Bracelets. Laughs. Jewish firm. They did, they were the only company that hired Japanese.
RS
Was a Jewish firm?
TM
Yeah. Before the, after the war, everybody hired the Japanese. But before, when we first moved, Jewish firm was the only one. And that's in jewellery firm, making rings.
RS
So that would have still been in the early forties then, right?
TM
Yeah.
RS
Yeah, during the war still.
TM
Yeah.
RS
Okay.
TM
About '41.
RS
Okay.
TM
'41, and in '42 you're in Ontario, I think. In Ontario I did all kinds of work. Farming. Mushroom farm. Worked for tobacco farms. What else did I do? I worked in, what do you call those? We killed 400 pigs a day.
RS
A slaughterhouse?
TM
Slaughter house, I think they call it. Laughs. That was a dirty job. Gave me 25 cents an hour. From 8 o'clock in the morning until 6 o'clock in the evening. Laughs.
RS
Do you remember the journey to Ontario? Do you remember what that was like?
TM
It was a nice ride. One Mountie, guiding all of us. Just one.
RS
Really? Thomas laughs. Was it by train?
TM
Yeah, by train. He was a young fella, too. Laughs. I guess the government figgered they'd save money not sending any Mounties out. Or maybe they trusted us.
RS
And did you go by yourself, or was your brother with you?
TM
My brother, yeah. And all the fisherman.
RS
Mmm, kay.
TM
The first bunch that moved out was from Vancouver Island. So you know all the guys were West Coast fisherman, or loggers, saw mill workers. Second that to the Rupert, coming down the train, down to Vancouver. Laughs. Stuff that we ate. Porridge in the morning. Laughs. And when we went to Ontario as a volunteer, we stayed in a road camp for two weeks, no, two months. Then they moved us to another camp, then volunteers would go on the farm. So it was, black camp (?). Just little town in the middle of Ontario. Not Ontario, the next over, Hamilton or something. Laughs. We were working in the mushroom farm, we collected all the crap out on race tracks and riding horses. We worked all day long in the manure. What a stink. All laugh. Yeah, I took a shower one day, bunch of us took a nice clean shower. Washed our hair, clothing, and we got on the street car, and all the passengers laughs got off. All laugh. We just stunk.
00:30:53.000
00:30:53.000
RS
Oh no.
TM
I don't know why, we had a shower and everything. Yet we stunk. It was on the shoes I guess.
RS
Yeah, stuck to your... Where were you living, you were going to camp to camp, but where were you living? What was your living situation?
TM
Oh, good. Living conditions were good. When we were in Minto(?), they had a great big building there that made our room, bedding and everything. And the cooking, we had a real good fancy cooker. He worked in Vancouver there, as one of the city, he used to supply all the food. We lived very good. Yeah, another we worked in the area, what do you call? Tomatoes? Tomato sauce, is that a thing? What's that, Livingston?
RS
Yeah, okay, yeah.
TM
And there's leans on the lake (?), and we worked for that company as well, for a week or two. Picking tomatoes, cucumbers. 25 cents an hour is pretty soft.
RS
And while you were in Ontario for about ten years, did you know where your mom and your sisters were?
TM
Yeah they all, my brother John, he got job as a body man (?) in Toronto, and he was getting good pay. So he bought a rooming house, in Ontario. In Toronto. And mother and his wife came over. Then they started, what do you call those? Girls coming up from the ghost town, living in the room for a week or so before they moved out. They did pretty good.
RS
Where did they stay before they came to Toronto?
TM
I think they stayed in Popoff. That's the ghost town in Slocan.
RS
And they got to stay together, even though you guys were separate, they were all together?
TM
Yeah.
RS
Okay.
TM
They were already ones who get together. And John called them up. So they did alright. Then I wasn't trained for anything, so I couldn't find any job. One of my friends was a tool guy making, and he had a job. And most of the guys were like me, though. Most of the guys had high school education, but laughs me I don't think had that.
RS
It was hard.
TM
Hard. When you're laughs...
RS
So when your brother brought your mom and your sisters, were you able to go meet them?
TM
Oh yeah.
RS
Yeah?
TM
Yeah I used to live in the house once in a while.
RS
Okay. And that was, was that much later? Because you said you were in the road camps for ten years, so did you get to go visit earlier than that, or?
TM
Yeah. Ten years, I was on my own. Five years later, I was on my own I think, doing little jobs like making rings, and laughs my life on that, couldn't sodder anything. But the room kept me going.
RS
Did your mom or your sisters ever tell you about what being sent to Popoff was like?
TM
No, no.
RS
No? Did you ever learn about what their experience was like going from Popoff to Toronto?
TM
No.
RS
Did they go on the train?
00:35:33.000
00:35:33.000
TM
Yeah they went on the train.
RS
Okay.
TM
They had, one, two, two kids I think? Little ones. Yeah I think they had two when they moved. Pause. No my life wasn't worth anything. Laughs.
RS
So, let's see, moving forward. Do you remember what happened when the war was sort of ending and you were free to go to different places?
TM
No we didn't get any word that we were allowed to come back. For ten years. And when we found out that we were allowed to come back and fish, we didn't hear anything, but one of my friends fished out there, and he made 20,000 dollars, just trolling.
RS
Where?
TM
Ucluelet.
RS
Okay.
TM
He was the only one that came back early. So we got all excited and wanted to come back but we didn't have the money to buy a boat. Then what the BC taxes sent a man, he's a big shot, he's looking for fisherman. To come on out to the West Coast to fish. Not gillnet, but for slow. So he came back to Toronto, and he a swath of people to volunteer, to try out for sorting. And I was one of the guys who got a chance. And right of the, guaranteed 30,000 dollars per person to get a boat, get a boat built, and the bank to give us a loan. And to get the, I think it was, two of us, I think it was.
RS
And BC Packers paid for that?
TM
I think the bank, the bank, yeah, BC Packers paid for that.
RS
I see. Okay.
TM
That was a real big, for me that was a life saver.
RS
Do you remember when that was, when you would have gone back to BC?
TM
That was 19-, oh, almost 50 I think.
RS
And what was it like to come back to BC?
TM
Oh chuckles get on my knees and pray. Laughs. That was quite a, to see my boat getting built and then in the water, and then getting ready for trolling. Took about six months to get ready. We were, yeah.
RS
Did you get to go back to the island, or were you fishing from somewhere else?
TM
No, I went to Ucluelet.
RS
Okay.
TM
And from there to Tofino.
RS
So you went back, then?
TM
Then I stayed there the rest of my life. Except for my wife. I met her in Delta.
RS
When did you meet your wife?
TM
In Toronto.
RS
In Toronto?
TM
19-, I don't know what it was. 1951? No?
RS
1949?
TM
'49?
WM
Mhmm. Thomas laughs.
RS
And how did you meet her?
TM
Laughs. She was my friends sister.
RS
Okay. Was it a friend from Tofino?
TM
No, they're from Rupert.
RS
From Rupert, okay.
TM
He was a boat builder.
RS
I see.
00:40:04.000
00:40:04.000
TM
So they started a boat building business in, in Delta. They were the first person to make fiberglass boats. For fishing. They made, did real good. I bought one of the boats, but they're doing real good. They made about seventy or eighty boats in a couple, three four five years.
RS
That was before the war?
TM
After the war.
RS
After the war.
TM
Yeah, eventually it was Deltaga Boatworks was everywhere. They were full boats. Heck, they were everywhere you went, you see. Laughs. The Detlaga boats. They were real good boats.
RS
So what were they, what was her family doing before the war?
TM
Boat building.
RS
They were boat building before the war?
TM
Yeah, then when they went to Ontario, they went to Meaford.
RS
Okay.
TM
That's up north. And they were hired by boatbuilders, there. They were yacht buildings. Building fancy yachts. They stayed there a couple years and then moved on to Toronto.
RS
Okay. So they were able to continue working and keeping business going during the war.
TM
Yeah, yeah.
RS
Okay. When you went back to Tofino after the war for the first time, do you remember seeing anybody familiar that you knew from before the war?
TM
Yeah.
RS
Did you see old neighbours.
TM
Yeah, I'd seen Mrs. Hacking (?). The old school teacher. And all the young fellas that I used to go in Boy Scouts and Wolf Cubs. They were there.
RS
And what was that like, were they excited?
TM
Oh, no feeling at all.
RS
No?
TM
Yeah. “Hi.” Laughs.
RS
Right.
TM
No there was no resentment settling back or anything.
RS
So you started fishing again?
TM
Yeah.
RS
But you were on your own?
TM
Yeah.
RS
Right. So when-
TM
Working for, promised BC Packer we would deliver our fish. Until we could get the boat paid for. I would fish for BC Packer, all my life.
RS
So when did you, if your wife was in Delta, when did you reunite again? Or was she always in Delta?
TM
She was always there. Staying home. But I made a trip, once in a while, from the fishing ground. At first it was pretty hard because there was no road in Port Alberni to Tofino. Just by airplane or by boat. So it was pretty hard, but once they put the road in it was okay. We did more trips. Laughs.
RS
So you returned. What about your brothers, and your mom, and your sisters?
TM
My brothers, they bought the house in Port Alberni.
RS
Okay.
TM
And mom stayed with them.
RS
So they did come back to BC about the same time as you?
TM
Yeah.
RS
Okay.
TM
At the same time.
RS
Mmm. And what did your sisters do after the war? Were they still young, or?
TM
She didn't do anything, she just played curling. All laugh. She didn't do any work, any housework, but she liked curling.
LM
Oh yeah she didn't do any housework. All laugh.
RS
And what about the others?
TM
Other sisters, she's got ten kids. Ten or eleven kids.
WM
Ten.
TM
Ten?
LM
Mhmm.
TM
Laughs. And all the girls are married, and they did real good. In marriage. One's in Australia, and one's in Vancouver Island. Another one's in Kamloops. One girls in Japan. I think that's all. Maybe she's in Campbell, Campbell River.
WM
Yep.
TM
She used to be a nurse, I think.
RS
Okay.
TM
One married a beekeeper. Yeah. Laughs. I better not say too much. All laugh.
LM
Yeah, that's it.
RS
That's okay. So how, okay so you worked for BC Packers and you sort of went back and forth?
TM
Yeah.
RS
From Delta to Ucluelet to Tofino. What about when it was years later and the Canadian government started talking about Redress.
TM
Yeah.
RS
Do you remember much about that time?
00:45:40.000
00:45:40.000
TM
Well, it was when the King, the Liberals, they didn't even bother. Trudeau and that team. You know. Mulrooney, at least he decided on giving us the money. Took quite a few years.
RS
And what was your-do you remember how you felt about that, at the time?
TM
No, I was, we used to go to the meeting. Laughs. I don't know what they were talking about.
RS
Well maybe it's easier to think about what's your opinion about it now? Do you think it was a good thing or a bad thing?
TM
Well for me it was just a thing to get rid of the old boat and get a big new boat. It was okay. But no, they cheated us different from the Americans. The Americans took everything, but they turned around and gave it all back, right away. And they took the boys in the army, and they joined the army, they took them in right away. And they came back a hero. But in Canada, they wouldn't take the boys in the army. They had to go to England, to join the army. And then when that happened, the Canadian government changed their mind and decided to get to boys in the army. They went to India, some kind of an intelligence or something. But they took ten years, ten years, no more than that, until we got our boat back. ... all the money as the Americans. Ten thousand dollars with, each. I think it was ten, or was it twenty?
WM
Twenty.
RS
Twenty.
TM
Twenty. We appreciated that but laughs treated us like second-class citizens. No, no. Laughs. I still vote for the NDP. All laugh.
RS
So it wasn't enough to make up for what actually happened.
TM
No. I know some people really died, waiting for their money. I don't know where the money all went. It all disappeared.
RS
One thing, we talked a little bit about your parents.
TM
Yeah.
RS
But could you tell me a little bit about when they came to Canada? Or? I know you said your father came from Japan, right?
TM
Yeah.
RS
Yeah. So what his journey to Canada like?
TM
Well he decided to come to Canada because his brother was in Canada before that. And he was a, one of those, hunters on the sealboat.
RS
Okay.
TM
On the sailboat. Hunting seals. And what was the other?
LM
Sea otters.
TM
Sea otters.
RS
Sea otters?
TM
Yeah.
RS
Okay.
TM
That's the one that's close to the beach. They're all over the island now. But when my uncle came over, and he had to hunt the seals, they killed most of the sea otters. Laughs. They disappeared. But he got paid lots of money, so the brothers figured they'd to the same thing and come over. I think my father was only a teenager when he come to Canada. That was, yeah, he was pretty young. He worked in the railroads, looked after the house in Granville Island (?) Grandview Island (?). Laughs. Some rich people lived a house on the island, so in the wintertime they wanted someone to look after it. So they got a job.
00:50:44.000
00:50:44.000
RS
Did you say that family was a politician?
TM
Yeah.
RS
Okay. Do you remember the family name? We could look it up later, but-
TM
Polk, Svoltie or something (?). Laughs.
RS
And I saw, there was the newspaper clipping, here. Your father worked in a logging camp for a while in North Van?
TM
Yeah.
RS
Yeah.
TM
Mom used to call it, the oar (?). They need oars. For sailboats, for the river boats. They used to row, when they're making the set. That's why mom thinks a few,. Just the older, logging camp I think.
RS
Okay. And do you remember, when your father first came to Canada, where did he land first? Which port did he come in?
TM
He landed in-I think he landed in Steveston.
RS
Okay.
TM
There was a few Japanese there, quite a few Japanese there, so. He was the first Japanese to go build in the Fraser. There's a little plaque in the park in Steveston, got his name on it. First, one of the early Japanese fisherman. Haven't seen it myself. Laughs.
RS
I'm sure there's a picture we can look at.
TM
I've seen the picture of it. Laughs.
RS
And what about your mom?
TM
Mom came after dad been here. Ten years I think.
RS
And where did she came from?
TM
She was from the same village dad was born.
RS
What was the village called?
TM
Eh?
RS
Do you know what the village was called?
TM
Shimozako (?).
RS
Okay, good.
TM
It's most just small, farming town. I don't know why he became a fisherman, but laughs.
RS
Laughs. It's the way it goes. So your mom and your dad already, were they married already? They already knew each other?
TM
They must have been married already. Because the first-19-, my brother was 19-, he was born 1915? 16? '13 he was born.
RS
Okay.
TM
1913. So they must have been in Canada about a year or two before they got a baby. I don't know how long they pauses my memory's gone so I don't know the laughs whole story.
RS
That's okay. I was just curious where they came from, which part of Japan they came from.
TM
I think they, village.
WM
Yeah, and then they both went to Steveston together, but your mom a little bit later.
TM
Yeah, he must have gone back to pick her up and gone back.
RS
Okay.
TM
He was a British citizen. To get a fishing license, eh? He had to be-
RS
Your father was?
TM
Huh?
RS
Your father?
TM
No, anybody that came, wanted a fishing license.
RS
Okay.
TM
You had to buy, get a British citizens paper. I don't know why they had to do that now, but before they had to all wait for that citizenship.
RS
Okay.
TM
So it must have been ... he must have been a Canadian citizen before. Laughs.
00:55:08.000
00:55:08.000
RS
Okay. Was was, could you tell me a little bit about working with BC Packers? You told me some about when you returned after the war, but how long were you there? You said all your life, but was it until maybe you were retired, or? Like how long were you with BC Packers?
TM
I started fishing for BC Packers after the war. That's 1940, 1950 I think? When I got the boat. Then I fished until 1980, and I retired at 60, 80? Almost 80. I think in 1980. I was retirement age.
LM
Whispers 70s.
TM
Is that right?
RS
You were in your 70s, I think?
WM
Yeah.
RS
Yeah, that's what your daughter's saying. Laughs.
TM
I thought I was close to 1980, 80 years.
RS
Maybe it was the year but you were seventy at the time.
TM
Laughs. I fished 'til BC Packers went out of business. The year they, I have no idea why they went out of business, but they were doing real good. But they, I think they decided going into real estate, they had all that property around Steveston there, you know? Land that was really expensive? They are building houses now. Laughs.
RS
Maybe. And did you do the same thing for BC Packers all those years?
TM
Yeah, all my fishing went to BC Packers.
RS
Did you have a pretty successful career?
TM
Yeah.
RS
Yeah?
TM
I see, I did.
RS
I've heard. Laughs. And what was it like when you started to raise a family?
TM
That was 19-, Wanda, the first one there. So. When was this? 19-.
WM
What year I was born?
TM
Huh?
WM
What year I was born?
TM
Yeah.
WM
1950.
TM
1950?
WM
Yep.
TM
Oh, right.
RS
Thank you very much. Laughs.
WM
Thanks for asking.
RS
And were you still living in the same place at that time?
TM
We were living on River Road. Was that River Road?
WM
Yep.
TM
Sunbury?
WM
Yep.
TM
That's on the Fraser River. Laughs. Oh one year the Fraser River rose so high that the water was on the floor.
WM
Yeah.
RS
Oh my gosh.
WM
Flooded.
TM
After that I thought I was going to move. All laugh.
RS
When did you move there, for the first time?
TM
Oh that's because, Wanda's father decided that, is that your?
WM
Laughs. My father is you.
TM
Oh, not your father. I'm your father.
WM
Okay, take a break. Laughs. Take a rest.
RS
Yeah? How are you feeling, do you want to take a break?
TM
Laughs. Yeah, I'll take a break. I want to go, go walk-
RS
Okay, good.
LM
Oh you've got to go for your lunch pretty soon, dad.
RS
Yeah, yeah. Maybe we'll just take a break and we can close it up. Yeah. Tape is paused.
00:59:15.000
00:59:15.000
RS
Okay we're back from a break here with Thomas. One thing I was curious about and you told me a little bit of, but because you went back to Tofino, did you find the community was very different? Or when you went back, was it just as you had left it?
TM
It was about the same as we'd left it, but that's around a couple of years. Yeah, really changed.
RS
How did it change?
TM
Oh, lot of young people there. Hippies. Laughs.
RS
Still like that. Laughs.
TM
We didn't, people that I used to know, they were all there. Still there. But the young fellow had come in and taken over the businesses and everything. So it changed all together. People around Ucluelet called it, West-Whistler. Like the one on the Whistler.
RS
Okay.
TM
Second Whistler. Because a lot of people coming in there and putting businesses. Changed altogether.
RS
Right.
TM
Before they were very friendly, but now, you go see a guy, he's not even going to say hello. Before you knew everybody there. Really nice little village.
RS
And you mentioned, when you first went back there, that one other person you know went back and he was fishing before you went. But did anybody else?
TM
No.
RS
That you know returned?
TM
No, they all decided afterwards, initially we made such a big catch, 20,000 dollars, that was a lot for fisherman. So we got all crazy and we just laughs hundreds of boats coming out of Japanese fisherman.
RS
So a lot of people went there?
TM
Yeah.
RS
I see.
TM
Not very few troller. They had something about fishing, you'd become a troller. A gillnet, you just throw a net out and you catch fish. But laughs trolling is a little different.
RS
Right. So you needed skills and there weren't that many people?
TM
Yeah.
RS
With the same skills.
TM
The only thing was Tofino, the boy fisherman was all gillnets, seiners, the big boat? Five man on the boat? Seiners. And we were single boat trollers. So we never clashed. And they were fishing for sockeye and we were fishing for spring salmon. So you know, we'd tie together and have fun but laughs different from a river.
RS
And do you remember before the war, did you ever fish aside the First Nations?
TM
Yeah.
RS
Along the area? Did you know anybody there?
TM
I used to know quite a few of the First Nation. And instead, in fact, I knew Dan David (?). He was an old man, then. Quite a few older than me. He died, but Dan David and the guys from houses. And then, two brothers, and then the S'Appelle's, from the houses, not the houses, Danfield. Ernie Edwards (?), Ernie Edwards was it, Ernie Day? Ernie Edwards, or? Native boys. He lived there but same age as me. They all died off now.
RS
Did you have a good relationship with them?
TM
Oh yeah, no trouble at all.
RS
And what about when you were fishing, did everybody support each other?
TM
No we, laughs, some guys wanted to push us right away. If you show a little bit of red light, you can't cross his bow. Laughs. Once in a while. But nothing. We all fished the same way.
RS
So for the most part, everybody used the area and got along pretty well?
TM
Yeah. Yeah we all, the same guys fishing in the same area. Laughs. I used to be different, I used to go somewhere else all by myself, so.
RS
One thing I forgot to ask when we were talking about when you were younger-
TM
Yeah.
RS
-in Tofino, is if you remember any childhood friends? Or remember, like did you have a best friend growing up there?
TM
Yeah, he died, but I got some friends in Tofino. Just one guy there, he's a pilot, he retired in Victoria. He wanted to come over and see me but, Murray McLeod, but I guess he's grown pretty old, too.
RS
Did you meet him when you were a kid?
TM
Huh?
RS
Did you meet him when you were a kid?
TM
Yeah.
RS
Oh, okay.
TM
He used to be my friends deckhand. Ian McLeod's deckhand. Laughs. There was Joe McLeod, Ian, then Slowman, then all kinds of Tofino boys I used to know. Now it's taken over by the cod boats (?). They got Vietnamese Cod Boats? They're taking over the wharf so they're tying them up to the wharfs, so. Yeah, they're all working hard though. Yeah, Ian shot himself, though.
01:05:59.000
01:05:59.000
RS
Oh dear.
TM
Yeah he went to a doctor and he came home and he took a gun and shot himself.
RS
When he was older?
TM
When he was about 60-something.
RS
Oh dear.
TM
His brother had cancer. And he suffered a long time. So I guess he got maybe a little cancer going in his body so he decided to end it all.
RS
Oh dear.
TM
That's the second guy I know that's shot himself. It was a Japanese boy who shot himself in Delta there. He had skin cancer.
RS
I see.
TM
So he shot himself. Laughs. Maybe I should do that, too.
LM
I don't think so. Laughs.
TM
My skin is so bad.
RS
Oh dear.
WM
You could get it like, shaved off, and it's like nothing, you know. Thomas laughs.
RS
Oh dear. One other question I had was, I think for the younger generations?
TM
Yeah.
RS
Some learn a lot from their parents if their parents feel comfortable telling them about what happened when they had to go away during the war or when they lost their boats or their home. And some people have a little bit harder of a time.
TM
Yeah.
RS
Yeah. What, I mean maybe this is a question for your daughters, but did you feel pretty okay telling stories about what happened during the war, or did it happen much later?
TM
Laughs. That's laughs.
WM
I think he always told stories.
RS
Yeah?
WM
Yeah.
RS
So do they know a lot while growing up from you?
TM
No.
RS
No?
WM
No, well, yeah, well.
TM
We don't talk much on war time. Wanda laughs. Things passed.
RS
Right. Do you-what is your opinion now, do you think it's good people are learning about it? Do you think it's good now that people are learning about it again?
TM
Yeah, yeah.
RS
Yeah?
TM
A lot better than before. Before they had some kind of a, I don't know, they didn't like Japanese, Chinese, East Indians. Laughs. But now everybody's equal. I got some, some guy fishing. He's going to keep on fishing 'til laughs he falls face into the navy (?).
RS
So if, I guess if you had to say something to other Canadians who are learning about the history of the Japanese Canadians for the first time, what would you say?
TM
Noth-
RS
Nothing? All laugh.
WM
Find out for yourself.
TM
Bad times and good times, so I don't know. I don't want to go through that thing again, but. Yeah.
RS
Do you think there are some lessons that people can learn from the history? Do you think people can learn some lessons about history when they learn about-
TM
Oh yeah.
RS
Yeah.
TM
See they better change. Laughs. Before they...
RS
It's important to treat everyone equally.
TM
Eh?
RS
It's important to treat everybody equally?
TM
Yeah, same.
RS
Okay.
TM
Just because just different, they're the same inside.
RS
Right. Alright, how are you feeling? Do you want to go to lunch? It's almost lunchtime. Ten minutes away.
TM
Ah.
WM
Linda's not going to phone you because she's sitting over there.
LM
Yeah laughs usually I phone him and say, “Lunchtime.”
RS
Before I-I think it is lunchtime-so before I stop the recorder, was there any memories or stories that you like to share that I forgot to ask you about? And you can tell me later, but I'll ask before I turn off the recorder. Anything important about your life Thomas laughs that you'd like to share. No?
TM
No. Live a dull life.
RS
I disagree. Well for now I'll say thank you for telling me the stories that you told me today. And if we want to maybe revisit anything else or you remember something, we can always come back and record a bit more. Okay?
TM
Yeah.
RS
Okay. We'll turn off the recorder then.
01:11:20.000

Metadata

Title

Thomas Hiroshi Madokoro (with daughters Wanda and Linda Madokoro), interviewed by Rebeca Salas, 17 July 2017

Abstract

Thomas Madokoro tells his life story with his two daughters Wanda and Linda present. He begins with where he was born in Steveston and where he grew up primarily in Tofino as a fisherman. He and his four siblings spent time in Vancouver for schooling and he returned to Tofino to work at the co-op and later the saltery until being uprooted during the war. After being moved to Hastings Park, Thomas volunteered to go to the road camps in Ontario along with his brother and many other fisherman. He spent the next 10 years there working odd jobs. The rest of his family was interned in Popoff until the end of the war and his brother John could afford to have the rest of the family move to Toronto. Thomas was offered a job by BC Packers to return to the west coast and fish with money up front to provide a boat and a bank loan to aid the transition. His views on Redress are that it was appreciated but fail to make up for the hardships and treatment suffered, especially in comparison to the Japanese Americans.
This oral history is from an interview conducted by the Oral History cluster of the Landscapes of Injustice project.

Credits

Interviewee: Wanda Madokoro
Interviewee: Linda Madokoro
Interviewer: Rebeca Salas
Transcriber: Jennifer Landrey
XML Encoder: Stewart Arneil
Publication Information: See Terms of Use for publication and licensing information.
Setting: Langley, BC
Keywords: Steveston ; Tofino ; fishing; road camps; Minto; Vancouver ; Hastings Park ; Popoff ; 1920s-50s, 1980s

Terminology

Readers of these historical materials will encounter derogatory references to Japanese Canadians and euphemisms used to obscure the intent and impacts of the internment and dispossession. While these are important realities of the history, the Landscapes of Injustice Research Collective urges users to carefully consider their own terminological choices in writing and speaking about this topic today as we confront past injustice. See our statement on terminology, and related sources here.