Tak Matsuba, interviewed by Tatsuo kage, 21 May 1991
Abstract
Tak
and his family were interned in
Lemon Creek
prior to being exiled to
Japan
. In Japan they stayed in
Wakayama
for a month where their father had a home before moving to
Tokyo
. They discuss some of the reasons why people decided to go to Japan and the types
of information that were available at the time regarding the
country’s state. In Tokyo, Tak worked at Haneda for the
Occupation forces
alongside American Niseis. After working at Haneda he became a proprietor
of a company that manufactures printer ribbons. He had multiple factories overseas,
requiring him to make multiple overseas business trips every year.
Tak mentions that despite himself thinking his Japanese was alright, he has been told
that his Japanese has improved over the years.
Side 2: Tak describes to Tatsuo what he saw in Lemon Creek last time he visited the
location. He then talks about how education is valued in Japan and how he
was able to find jobs by connecting with people. He also mentions being bilingual
was an advantage at the time because despite the demand there
were few who understood both English and Japanese. They then discuss the wall between
the Nisei, Sansei and the new immigrants within the
Japanese Canadian communities as well as what will happen or change after Redress.
This oral history is from the Nikkei National Museum and Cultural Centre's Kage Collection. Accession No. 2021-7-1-1-3. It describes the experience of exile.
00:00:00.000
Tatsuo Kage (TK)
Lots of talking and music in the background.
あのまずですね、私もうあまり時間が...お取りしない方がいいと思いますので急いで用件だけお伺いしますけれども...
Lots of talking and music in the background.
First of all, because I think I shouldn’t take up much of your time, I’m going to
get straight to the point.
TM
はい。
TK
で、その関係で日系人、特に日本に送還された日系人の方の事について調べたいと思っています。それであの、大部分の方はその送還じゃなくていわゆるその強制移動をさせられた事で政府の政策の影響を受けて色々財産を(?)あったわけですけれども、
それに加えて日本に帰られた人の場合には、その、二重の（不正？）の対象になった、そういう事がカナダではまだあまり...そういう事実があった事は知られていても調べられた事とかあるいはそういった事は書かれたことはなかったわけです。
And in relation to that, I’m now thinking of studying Japanese Canadians, especially
those who were repatriated to
Japan
. For most of those people, it was not repatriation but so-called forced relocation,
and because of the government’s policies, they (?) their property.
In the case of those who went to Japan in addition to (losing their property), they
faced doubled injustice. These things haven’t been known very well in
Canada
yet... Even though those facts were known, they haven’t been studied or documented.
TK
それで私としてはその部分について研究したい、調べたいと思っておりまして。それであの、（皆さん？）のお話をお伺いしているのですけれども、それで今までカナダにもうすでにまた戻ってらっしゃった方の話もお伺いしているのですが、
それぞれの方、昔の事について色々受け止め方が違いますけれどもそれを経験された方、年齢によって昔の事の受け止め方が違ってらっしゃるんですよね。それで一番はっきりしてましたのは、それを経験された歳が非常に若い方の場合、
まだ子供だった人の場合にはそれほど辛い覚え、経験してらっしゃらないんですけれども、やはり成人されたような時に近い方の場合にはですね、やはり一家を支える(?)おっしゃて。まあ、その、戦争が終わる前後の事から戦後日本に
お帰りになってどういうふうに過ごされたかについて皆さんにお話を聞いているわけです。
So I’m thinking of studying and investigating that and have been interviewing (everyone?).
I have also interviewed those who have already been back to
Canada and learned that everyone took what happened in the past differently. Depending
on their experience and age, each of them took it differently.
The clearest difference was that those who experienced it at their young ages, especially
in childhood, don’t remember it as tough,
but those who experienced it around when they came of age said they needed to support
their families (?)....
So I’m interviewing and asking everyone how their lives were around the time when
the war ended and after they went back to Japan after the war.
TK
それであの松葉さんの場合は、失礼ですがお生まれは何年ですか？
Excuse me for asking this, but in what year were you born, Mr. Matsuba?
TK
ああ、そうですか。それで、そうしますとも戦争が終わった時にはもう二十歳...
Oh, I see. Then, by the time when the war ended, you were already twenty...
TM
レモンクリークに行ったんですけどね、あまりよく覚えていないんですよね。えっとね、十五歳でしてね。で、十六歳になってrestrictionさせられまして。あの、Hastings
Parkは入らなかったんやと思います。
I went to
Lemon Creek
but actually don’t remember much. Um, I was fifteen, and when I became sixteen, I
got restriction. And I don’t believe I went to the
Hastings Park
.
TM
Cordova Street。メインとCordovaの角から近いと思います。
On
Cordova Street
. I think it was near the corner of
Main
and Cordova.
TM
当時弟一人と妹二人いましたけどね、弟はその後日本に行ってから亡くなりましたけど、もう一人レモンクリークのキャンプの中で一人弟が生まれました。
I had a younger brother and two younger sisters at that time, but my brother passed
away after we went to
Japan
later. And another younger brother was born in the
Lemon Creek Camp
.
TK
あの、それで1944年、戦争が終わる前ぐらいに、一年くらい前にですね、その、日本に帰るかあるいは東の方に行くかっていうような調査があった事は覚えてらっしゃいますか。
And in 1944, around the time before the war ended, about a year before that, do you
remember there was a survey asking whether you were going back to Japan or going to
the east?
TM
一年も前からそんな話があった記憶はないですね。
I don’t remember that they had already talked about such a thing as early as a year
before.
TK
00:05:00.000
そうですか。あの、それでまた二回くらいですね、調査があったはずですけれども、
I see. Um, and then there should have been two more surveys later.
00:05:00.000
TK
その頃にですね、松葉さんの場合は(?)十八か十九歳ですけれども日本に帰るかあるいはどうするかって事についてご両親と何かそういった事でお話なった事は覚えてますか？
Around that time, ...when you were eighteen or nineteen, Mr. Matsuba, do you remember
discussing with your parents whether to go back to Japan or what to do or anything
like that?
TM
お恥ずかしい話なんですけど自分はあまり記憶は無かったんだけど今回このmeetingで妹が来てね。
It’s embarrassing, but I myself didn’t remember well, but my sister came to this meeting,
and...
TM
それで兄貴はEastへ行こうって言ったけど親父がね、日本に帰った方が家もあるし、田んぼもあるし、だから日本へ行こうって言い出してそれでしょうがなくついて行ったんだよね、ねえ兄ちゃんって。
Gives a small laugh.
妹の方が記憶があったみたいです。
And she said that I suggested going to the east but my father suggested going to Japan
because there was a house to live as well as rice fields,
so we reluctantly followed him. Right, brother?, she said.
Gives a small laugh.
My sister seems to remember better.
TK
ああ、そうですか。じゃあ妹さんは覚えてらっしゃったんですね。妹さんは歳はいくつくらい違いますか？
Oh, I see. So your sister remembers it. How many years younger is your sister?
TM
僕と一つ半違うくらいです。
Tak gives a small laugh.
She is just around a year and a half younger.
Tak gives a small laugh.
TK
それでそうしますと
short pause with loud piano in the background
日本はそれで結局どちらにお帰りになられたのですか？
Then
short pause with loud piano in the background
where in Japan did you go?
TM
あの、三尾っていう...
Difficult to hear due to shuffling of tape at 00:06:22.
Um, it was called
Mio
...
Difficult to hear due to shuffling of tape at 00:06:22.
TM
でも僕は一ヵ月くらいしかいなかったですけどね。すぐ東京に出て羽田へ行きまして、駐留軍の空軍関係の仕事をしてました。
I was there only about a month, though. Soon, I went to Haneda,
Tokyo
and worked for the Air Force of the
Occupation Army
.
TK
日本にお帰りになる時期の事からまたお伺いしますけど、日本にお帰りになる時期、日本に帰られたのは夏ですか？
I would like to go back to the time around when you went back to Japan. Was it in
summer when you went back to Japan?
TK
じゃあ第二回くらいのほうで。じゃあ他の今回いらした方の、ご一緒だった方も...
Then maybe you were in around the second group. Then, among those who are here (for
this meeting), some of them might have gone to Japan with you...
TM
中にはおると思います。妹が、一番下の妹がね、なんかちょっと病気になって、それで乗るべき船から一隻遅れて、みんなで行くのが行かれなくなって後で乗ったっていう記憶はありますけど。
何隻か出ましたからね。
I think some of them did. My sister, ...the youngest sister got ill, and we got on
the ship after the one we were supposed to get on.
I remember that we were not able to go with the other people and got on a later ship.
Because there were several ships.
TM
その中でこう予定しているgroupが組まれて、で、僕達が組まれたgroupに乗るべきだったのがその間際になって妹が麻疹だったかな、なんか病気してですね、
それですぐ行かれなくなって遅れたっていう事はあった。
They grouped people, and we were supposed to get on the ship with our group, but at
the last minute, my sister got measles or something,
and we were not able to leave and postponed the departure.
TK
ああ、そうですか。多分ですね、三月頃に一番はやい船が行ったんじゃないかと思います。
Oh, I see. I think that the earliest ship was in around March.
TK
それで二回っていうのが八月だったんじゃないかな。まあ兎も角それで、その頃ですね、家財道具をかなり皆さんお持ちになってお帰りになったんじゃないかと
思うんですけれども何か覚えてます？かなり大きな荷物を...
And the second one was in August, I think. Anyway, I believe that everyone had to
carry a lot of household items to Japan. Do you remember anything? A lot of luggage...
TM
ええ。荷物はありましたけどね、家財道具って言ってもあれあの、キャンプの中の家は小さな家でしたからね。入る物もしれてますからね。
ただ親父は割と大工仕事のような事が出来て器用だったので手作りのsuitcaseなんかありましたね。
Yes. We did have luggage, but there was not much stuff we could call household items
because our house in the camp was small. We didn’t need so many things.
But because my father was quite handy with carpentry, we had a hand-made suitcase(s)
and so on.
TK
私あの、まとめてですね、まず記事に、雑誌に書きたいと思っています。
Um, I’m planning to compile them and to write journal articles at first.
TK
それであの、そうですね、あとその頃の事でですね、日本に帰られた時に食糧事情が非常にに悪かった事皆さんおっしゃるんですけれども、
何か(?)で日本に帰られた当時のですね印象としてこの物資の不足とかそういう事は何か覚えていますか？
And then, after that... Everyone says that the food situation was very bad when they
went back to Japan, but do you remember or have any impression
on the shortage of goods or anything like that when you went back to Japan?
TM
すぐそういう仕事に就きましたから。多分一ヶ月ぐらいしかいなかったですからね、和歌山には。それですぐに仕事に就いたからもう食料の心配は無くなりましたから。
当時はあの食糧事情は悪かったくらいの記憶はありますけれどもね。
I got that job right away and was in Wakayama probably only for about a month. Because
I got a job right away, I didn’t have to worry about foods any more.
I do remember the food situation at that time was bad, though.
TK
00:10:09.000
ああ、そうですか。それからですね、もう一つ帰られる事を決められる前後の事なんですけれども実はレモンクリークの方は他のキャンプに比べて日本に帰られた方が非常に多いんですよね。
それでまあ、その理由が何故かっていう事をちょっと皆さんにお伺いしているのですけれども、一つは日本が戦争に負けたっていう事についてあまりそれをはっきり信じてない方。
Oh, I see. And one more thing about the time around when you decided to go back to
Japan
, ... In fact, more people from
Lemon Creek
went back to Japan comparing to those from the other camps. So I’m asking everyone
why that was. One of the reasons was because some people didn’t
quite believe that Japan lost the war...
00:10:09.000
TK
そんな事があったんじゃないかと思うんですけどね。それはその当時実は帰られる直前にですね、その、戦争が日本終わったからまあ日本に帰られるようになったにしても日本が
戦争に負けたって事について何かはっきりした情報ってのがあったようにお考えでしょうか？
I think that was one of the reasons. You were able to go back to Japan because the
war ended in Japan, but aside from that, do you think that
there was definite information that Japan lost the war at that time, right before
you went to Japan?
TM
ええ、あの、ラジオ...ラジオを持ってはいけなかったんですけど何人かは持ってましたからね。それでそういうニュースはずっと流れていてですね、大人の人達が涙流してたからね。
Yes, um, radio... we were not allowed to take radios with us, but some people did.
So we were listening to such news all the time, and adults were crying.
TM
(?)したからですね。もう半分負けたという、僕は(?)思ってました。負けてないというような事は聞いた事は無いですね。
Because (?), I had already half believed that Japan lost. I had never heard anyone
saying Japan didn’t lose.
TK
ああ、そうですか。ただ他の方、まあ、少し歳の若い方なんかのお話ですと日本に初めて帰って米軍が色々(?)な事でやっぱり日本は負けたんだなという事をですね。
日本に帰ってからはっきりしたっていう事をおっしゃる方もいるんですけど確かにキャンプの中でもそういったラジオやなんかの情報で、それとか原爆が落ちたとかですね、
そういった事についてある程度皆さんご存知であったという事も聞いておりますので多分ある程度分かってらっしゃたんだろうと思うんですよ。
それであの、日本に帰られてからそうしますと米軍のお仕事はどれくらい、どんな事を？
Oh, I see. During the interviews with other people, ...well, a little younger people,
some people said they didn’t clearly realize that Japan lost until they
went back to Japan and (?) the US Army (?). But I also heard that, even in the camps,
everyone knew the news such as the atomic bombs to some extent from
radios and so on. So I believe that everyone probably knew it to some extent. Then
um, after you went back to Japan, how long did you work for the US Army
and what kind of things did you do?
TK
それで、その時期にですね、米軍からの待遇っていうのはいわゆる日本人並みだったのですか？それとも第三の(?)っていうのですか、日本人でもアメリカ人でもない人としての待遇だったのですか？
And at that time, was your pay in the US Army around the same as Japanese? Or were
you treated as so-called the third (?), neither Japanese nor American?
TM
その第三（人？）待遇っていうか、アメリカの二世も一緒にいましたからね。
Tak mumbles something.
待遇は一般の日本人よりは良かったです。当時は他にも封鎖って言いますか？
Something like that third (?)... because there were also American Nisei with us.
Tak mumbles something.
Our pay was better than regular Japanese workers. There was also a system called (封鎖?)
at that time.
TM
っていう制度がありましてね。500円までは(?)。大体の日本の方の給料500円くらい(?)と思います。当時は、初めのうちは。僕らは必ずそれをオーバーした分は日銀に預けに行ったりそれを出しに行ったり。
それと宿舎も与えられて。食事は兵隊の、アメリカの兵士と同じ食堂で食事はとりました。
There was such a system. Up to 500 yen (?). I believe that around 500 yen (?) the
salaries of general Japanese workers(?). At the beginning, at that time.
We always deposited the surplus to the Bank of Japan or withdrew it. We were also
provided the accommodation. And we had meals in the dining hall together
with American soldiers.
TK
その時期にいわゆるカナダ国籍っていうのは一応ですね、カナダ生まれの方でもカナダ側の政策で日本に帰られた方は国籍を喪失したっていう事になってたというのですけれども、
松葉さんの場合はその時期はどう...
At that time, the Canadian citizenship was... I believe that even Canadian-born people
lost their citizenship if they went back to Japan due to the policies of
the Canadian side, but in the case of you, Mr. Matsuba, ...
TM
あのね、ちょっと前後してはっきり覚えていないんですけどね、第三（人？）の場合国籍が無い、無国籍のような扱いになったのかも分かりませんけど、
大使館から確かその出生証明書を持って行く所にですね、出生証明書がある以上日本人ではないという証拠はございませんかなんかそういうようなね、証明の様な物を貰った気がしますね。
そしてそれを届けたか、必要だったのかちょっと思い出せないけどそういう事がありましたけれども。
Actually, I don’t remember exactly when, ... The third (?) might have been considered
somehow stateless... I remember that I got some kind of document from the
embassy to prove that, as long as my birth certificate is in the office where we
submit ones, there was no proof that I was not Japanese, or something like that.
I’m not sure if I submitted it somewhere or if I needed it for anything, but I remember
it.
TK
00:15:04.000
もう一つ逆にね、日本でもう少し年の若い方の場合学校に入る時に無国籍だったのでそれでは日本の公立学校に入れない。そういう問題があったとおっしゃる方(?)。
だから逆に日本の国籍が無いという様な事で何か問題はあったのかなという気がするのですけれども、松葉さんの場合は直接そういった記憶はない...？
On the other side, somebody a little younger than you remembers having a problem in
entering a public school in Japan because he/she was stateless at that time.
So I think that those who didn’t have Japanese nationality might have had such problems.
In the case of you, Mr. Matsuba, do you remember anything like that?
00:15:04.000
TM
僕は抜きました。入ってましたけどカナダ国籍になる時に、カナダの国籍(?)ましたよね、後ほど。
I removed my name from it. My family registry was there, but when I got my Canadian
citizenship, ...Canadian Citizenship (?), right?
TK
あの、でも日本にお帰りになった頃はまだ日本の国籍はあったんですね。
Okay, but when you went back to Japan, your family registry was still there.
TM
まあ、そういう所に入ってしまったんですからね。僕は無国籍の人と同じような状態でしたね。
Well, I got a job in such a place, I was same as stateless.
TM
そうです。まあ、貿易関係でした。当時は日本に来ている外人、ホテル向けの食料品や物資の輸入する関係の会社でした。
Yes. In trade. It was a company to import foods and goods for hotels and foreigners
in Japan at that time.
TM
ええまあそれから
Tak mumbles something to himself.
OSSっていうのがありまして、office suppy storesとか言って。それは軍隊で言えばPX (post exchange) のような。
Yes. And then
Tak mumbles something to himself.
there was a place called OSS, office supply stores, which was something like a PX
(post exchange) in the Army.
TM
民間のPXのような。それが特別許可が降りた日本の企業が何年かやりました。そういうので大阪で、東京から大阪へ行きまして、(?)の仕事もやって、
そのまま百貨店の貿易部に行ってそれから商事会社へ。十八年ぐらいいましたね。それで今の会社が十四年ですかね。
Something like a private version of PX. I worked for a Japanese company that had a
special permission to do that for a few years. For that job, I worked in Osaka...
moved from
Tokyo
to
Osaka
. I also did (?), and got hired by the trade division of a department store right
after that, and then at a trading company. I worked there for about eighteen years.
Then I’ve been working in my current company for fourteen years.
TK
松葉さんの場合は二十歳近くまでカナダにおいでになったという事は英語が非常になんて言うのでしょうか、強かったと思うのですけど、
カナダを出る段階では日本語はどれくらいおできになりましたか？
In your case, Mr. Matsuba, because you were in
Canada
until around the age of twenty, I think that ...how do I say this... your English
was very fluent, but how fluent were you in Japanese when you left Canada?
TK
その日本語は日本にお帰りになってから、まあ、普通の仕事をしたりする、日常生活で不自由ない...
So, after you went back to Japan, you didn’t have any problems speaking Japanese for
work or in your daily life...
TM
なかったと僕は思っています。当時から知っている人はですね、随分今は日本語上手くなったなって言っていますけどね。あの
Tak gives a small laugh.
あまり日本語が上手だったらね当時はイジメられたんですよ。
I don’t think I did. Those who have known me from that time say that my Japanese improved
a lot now, though. Actually
Tak gives a small laugh.
the people who were very fluent in Japanese would be bullied at that time.
TM
ある程度は読めました。今でもね読むことは不自由ないですけどね。書くことはあまり得意ではないです。書くのは英語の方がいいです。
しゃべるのは英語も日本語も同じぐらいで、読むのはやっぱり英語がいいかな。漢字が時々分からないのがありますけど前後で分かりますからね。
それと漢字は絵でしょ。Pictureだから読めなくても意味は分かるんですよ。
I was able to read to some extent. Even now, I still have no problem reading. I’m
not very good at writing. For writing, I’m better in English.
In speaking, my fluency is about the same in English and Japanese. For reading, maybe
I’m better in English. There are some Chinese characters that I don’t know,
but I can understand them form the context. And Chinese characters are like pictures,
aren’t they? They are pictures, so even thought I can’t read them,
I still understand the meanings.
TM
日本の読み方とか(?)の読み方とかありますけど「木」っていう字を「モク」って読む時も「キ」って読んでも意味は分かります。
In Japanese reading, there are (?) reading and so on, but even though I read the letter
木 as ki when it actually has be to read as moku, I still understand the meaning.
TK
そうですね。ただあれでしょ、キャンプにいらっしゃった頃というのは学校、日本語学校なんてのはまだ通ってなかったわけで...そうしますとキャンプにいらっしゃる前にバンクーバーでは日本語学校...
You are right. But, you know, when you were in the camp, you didn’t go to school,
the Japanese Language School, ...so before you moved to the camp, you went to the
Japanese Language School in
Vancouver
...
TM
(?) Streetの学校でね。六年生と（補習科？）二年とかありましてね。僕らが最後の卒業生ですよ。なんか今年で五十周年記念だとか言ってますけどね。
The school on (?) Street. There were six grades and two grades of the supplementary
courses. We were the last graduates. They say that this year is the fiftieth anniversary.
TK
あの、それから日本にお帰りになってからのカナダとの縁といいますか、あの、ご親戚なんかがカナダにそのままいらしゃった方なんかかなりいますけれども...
And after you went back to Japan, ...how do you call it... your connection with Canada,
... Many people had their relatives and so on who stayed in Canada...
TK
00:20:05.000
そうしますとあともう一つはですね、日本に送還された方の内で、まあ、半分近くじゃないかと思うんですけれども、その後カナダに帰ってらっしゃいますよね。
松葉さんの場合はまあそういった、その、カナダにまた帰ってくる事をお考えになったかどうかですね。あるいはそういうチャンスがあったかどうか。
Then, one more thing I would like to ask you is... among those who were repatriated
to Japan, about the half of them, I think, came back to Canada later,
didn’t they? I would like to ask you whether you, Mr. Matsuba, considered coming back
to Canada, or whether you had such an opportunity.
00:20:05.000
TM
まあねぇ。どうなんでしょうね。その、落ち着いたら生温いお湯でも居心地がいいので。
Tak laughs.
出る勇気がなかったのかも分からないですね。
Tak laughs again.
あんまりね、そういう、一時は行こうかと思った事はありますけど。友達が沢山いっぺんに...友達って言いますか、同じ境遇にいた人達が帰って。どっち行っても帰って来てッて言うんですけどね。二世は。
Both Tak and Tatsuo laugh.
港を送り迎えした時は少し寂しいなという気もしましたけど。
Well. I don’t know. Once you settle down, you start feeling comfortable even in lukewarm
water.
Tak laughs.
Maybe I didn’t have courage to get out of such an environment.
Tak laughs again.
I didn’t... um, I once thought of it, though. Many friends, ... or those who were
in the same situation as I was, all went back at once. ...
Either way we are going, we use the words go back. We Nisei do that.
Both Tak and Tatsuo laugh.
When I saw them off at the port, I felt a little lonely, though.
TM
ええ。当時はまだ飛行機も高いし、船賃、やっと工面したなんてありまして。そういう時は少し寂しいな思ったりしましたけれども割とのんきな性格なのでその日その日で
Tak gives a small laugh and mumbles something quietly afterwards.
。
Yes. The flights were still expensive at that time, and people had a hard time and
finally managed to save their shift fares. On such occations,
I felt a little lonely, but I’m kind of easy-going, so just day by day...
Tak gives a small laugh and mumbles something quietly afterwards.
TM
(?)。
Tak laughs.
Wifeに聞かれたらいつもそう言うから。
Short pause.
1958年。
(?)
Tak laughs.
... because I always say so whenever my wife asks me.
Short pause.
In 1958.
TM
はい。三人いますけど皆カナダ国籍です。日本国籍になれない。
Yes. I have three children, and they are all Canadians. They can’t be Japanese nationals.
TM
日本国籍持ってなかったから。下の子がね、生まれがおそかったからなんか最近また日本の(?)事がありましてね。今は二重国籍になっていますけど二十一歳になったら選ばなくちゃならない。
Because I didn’t have the Japanese nationality. My youngest one was born late, and
recently there was (?) in Japan, so she has dual citizenship now but will have to
choose at the age of twenty-one.
TK
お子さん達はどうですか。こう、カナダに来たいとか。またその様な事は言う...
How about your children? Do they say they want to come to
Canada
or something like that...?
TM
あのね、アメリカには行った事あるけどカナダには来た事ないんですよまだ。
Well, they have been to the
US
but have never come to Canada yet.
TK
ああ、そうなんですか！あの、お父さんが、その、カナディアンっていう、カナダ国籍であるという事について何か、お子さん達はどういう風に思っていますか？
Oh, they haven’t! Um, what do they think about you being Canadian, ...having the Canadian
citizenship?
TM
ええ、その、カナダ国籍という事は知っていますよ。知っていると言うのもあれですけどね。自分達も英語の分からないカナダ人だなんて(?)ますけど。
Yeah, um, they know they are Canadian citizens. It’s weird to say they know it, though.
They are (saying?) that they are Canadians who don’t understand English.
TK
そうしますとあんまりじゃあお子さん達に関しては実質的なカナダとの縁はあまりない...
Then, as for your children, they don’t have much actual connection with Canada...
TM
ないです。アメリカにも兄弟がいてまして。それで従妹とかがアメリカにいるからどちらかと言うとその人達の方が...こっちにも親戚はいるんですがそういう風に来た事もないし。
兄弟じゃなくて従妹とかそういうのですがちょっと縁があります。
No. I have my siblings in the US too, so my children have their cousins in the US.
They are rather closer to those cousins... We have our relatives here too,
but my children haven’t come to see them. So my children have a little connection
not with my siblings but with their cousins.
TK
そうですか。それからですね、あともう一つお伺いしたいのは例えばそのまだリタイヤされてないと思うんですけど、リタイヤされたら例えばカナダは生まれ故郷だという事で。
I see. And one more thing I would like to ask you is, ...I don’t think you have retired
yet, but once you retire, for example, ...because you were born in Canada, ...
TK
カナダに帰って来るかという事をですね、お考えになるかどうか。例えば井手さんなんかはね、そんなことをちょっと...
...whether you are thinking of coming back to Canada. For example,
Mr. Ide
said something like that...
TM
帰りたいという気持ちはありますね。ありますけれどその前にちょっともう自分が今住んでいる社会と違いますからね。こっちに帰ったら同じ社会と横滑りに入れるか問題になりますね。
I feel like I want to come back. I do. I do, but here is completely different from
the society where I live now. I have to think, once I’m back here,
whether I will be able to blend in here and live just like I do in
Japan
now.
TM
多分retireしたらしょっちゅう行ったり来たりするでしょうね。お金が続けば。
Tak gives a small laugh.
Maybe, once I retire, I will go back and forth. If my money lasts.
Tak gives a small laugh.
TK
00:25:04.000
カナダ側の...カナダの日系人、実はこのウィークエンドに全カナダの日系人の会議がありまして私役員をしていますから行ってきたのですけれども。
On the Canadian side, ...Japanese Canadians in Canada, ... Actually, because I am
a board member of National Association of Japanese Canadians,
I went to the meeting this weekend.
00:25:04.000
TK
その時に今までその、日本にいる日系人の方にカナダにいる日系人が何もしてないから(?)何か(?)。例えばカナダにリタイヤしたいという人達に対して色々情報を
提供したりなんかしたらいいんじゃないかっていう話が出てたんですけど。
There, they were saying that, because Japanese Canadians in Canada haven’t done anything
to those who are in Japan, (?). We talked about, for example,
providing various information to those who would like to come back and live in Canada
after they retire.
TK
ただ私が伺った範囲では、カナダにリタイヤしたいって言う方はあまりいらっしゃらないので、果たしてそういう事をするだけの意味があるのかどうか疑問だという事は申し上げたのですけれど。
ただ、お子さん達の世代に関しては外国に留学するチャンス(?)。そういった方に対しては何かお手伝い出来ることはないかってお話をしたのですけれど...ただ実際問題日本で四十何年かおすごしで、
しかも大体結婚された方の場合、特に日本生まれの日本人の方(?)。そういう意味では実質的なカナダとの繋がりはあんまりない方が多いと思います。
Short pause.
But as far as I have heard, there are not many people who want to move to Canada after
their retirement. So I told in the meeting that I doubted if
it would be worth doing that. But as for the generation of your children, (?) opportunities
to study abroad. I suggested that there might be something
we could help them with. ...But in reality, I don’t think that the majority of the
people who have spent forty-odd years in Japan and got married there,
especially Japanese-born people, (?) have much actual connection with Canada in that
sense.
Short pause.
TM
まあ、僕の場合はね、そういうのではね、wifeはアメリカには何回か来てるんだけど(?)初めてなんですよwifeは。それで親戚にも会いましてけど、
逆に親戚は日本で生まれて育ってカナダに来てるから英語より日本語の方が楽だって何人か言いますからね。そういう意味では(?)カナダっていうか、親戚っていうか親しみは増しました。
今までは名前を耳で聞いただけだったけど今度は初めて会って...その様な事はありましたけれど、これは非常に僕の個人的な立場からの事であってカナダからどうこうって意味じゃないですけどね。
Short pause.
Well, in my case, my wife has come to the US several times, but it’s her first time
to (?). We went to see my relatives.
Actually, some relatives say that it’s easier for them to communicate in Japanese
than in English because they were born and grew up in Japan and came to Canada.
In that sense, (?) now has more affinity with Canada, or our relatives. She had only
heard of their names but now actually saw them for the first time...
that’s what happened to us, but this is just a very personal experience from my position,
so I didn’t mean to say that we would like something from the Canadian
side or anything like that, though.
Short pause.
TK
あの、あとですね、これは非常に、えっと、実際とは違いますけれども、カナダに...仮に日本に帰られなかった場合とですね、まあ、そういう方もかなり多いじゃないですか。
And, this is, um, very different from the reality, but in Canada... if you hadn’t
gone back to Japan, ...well, there are quite a lot of people who didn’t, aren’t they?
TM
あのね、どうなってたか答えは出ないですけどね。
Tak laughs and gives a short pause.
でも今のね、今の日本におけるpositionにそれ相当のpositionをカナダで得られたかっていうとちょっと疑問はあるけど。まあ、僕の所は小さい会社ですけれども、大阪二部上場してまして。
従業員850人います。会社はあの、本社は大阪ですけど、大阪の県境の茨木と言う所に京都と大阪の間ですけれども(?)和歌山にもありまして。子会社はアメリカの(?)ありまして。ロンドンにも工場ありまして。
アメリカではNew York、Long Island と South Carolinaにも。それ以外では海外関係では香港には(?)会社がありまして。全部最近、ここ二、三年の間に出来たものですけどね。技術提供
してまして。
トロントの近くですがアメリカ側のナイアガラの滝のある近くですけどバッファローっていう所にも技術提供 会社が。フランスの南部にもありますからね。その関係で僕は今年に六回ぐらいは海外に出ておりまして。
Well, I can’t tell what happened.
Tak laughs and gives a short pause.
But I doubt if I would’ve been able to be in the same position as I am now in Japan.
A decent position in Canada. The company where I’m working is a small one
but got listed in the second section of Osaka Securities Exchange. There are 850 employees.
The main office is in
Osaka
, ...a place called Ibaraki near the border of the Osaka prefecture, between
Kyoto
and Osaka. (?) There is an office in
Wakayama
too. We have a subsidiary company in (?), the US. There is a factory in London too.
Also in Long Island,
New York
and South Carolina in the US too. Other than those, as for the overseas relationship,
there is a (?) company in
Hong Kong
. These are all the ones that recently opened, in the last two, three years. We supplied
technology. There is another company we supplied technology to near
Toronto
, a place called Baffalo near the Niagara Falls on the American side. There is one
in South France too. For this business, I traveled overseas at least about six times
this year.
TM
行ったり来たりしてますから。そういう、非常に幸運、ラッキーだったんだと思いますね。それで仕事してますからほんとに今鹿毛さんのお話した、
もし日本へ帰ってなかった場合、同じような事をしていたかも分かりませんし、非常に、日本にいたから、ある時期に日本にいたからこそそういうチャンスにあったと思いますね。
Going back and forth. I think I was very lucky because I’ve had such a job. If I hadn’t
gone back to Japan as you just said, Mr. Kage, I might have been doing
similar things, but I think that I had such opportunities because I was in Japan at
a certain time.
TM
00:30:01.000
コンピューターのプリンターのテープを作る。タイプライターのribbonとかをね。
We make tapes for computer printers. Ribbons of typewriters and so on.
00:30:01.000
TK
確かにあの経済発展というような面で見るとカナダは中々まだまだ経済的には後進国ですから日系人の中でもかなりいいキャリアをお積まれた場合にはどちらかと言うと
専門技術を持っってらっしゃる方、専門職種の方ですと、まあ、かなり有名になられた方っていうのはありますけどね。そういう一般の企業で、ビジネスの世界では中々大変かもしれませんね。
Short pause.
あのそれから、この最近二、三日の事ですけど。
You are right. Because Canada is still economically behind in terms of the economic
development, those who achieved a good career among Japanese Canadians
tend to be the ones who have professional skills. Some people who have professional
jobs became quite famous. It might be tough for those who are in regular
companies in the business world.
Short pause.
And this is about these last two, three days, ...
TK
あの、リユニオンで、まあその、レモンクリーク、プラスの所をバスで一緒に回るっていうのは戦後初めてですか？そういう事をらっしゃたのは？
Um, in the reunion, ...was it your first time after the war to visit the locations,
such as
Lemon Creek
(plus?), by bus with other people?
TM
00:31:48.000
あっ、その時はキャンプへ行かなかったです。今回はね、あの、リユニオンは前夜祭のようなものが17日の晩にありまして。それに間に合いました。
僕はあ16日から来る予定でしたんですけれど急遽二日ほど前に名誉会長が...会社の名誉会長が亡くなってお葬式があって。それをやっとすまして飛んで来たのですけれども前夜祭の一時間程前に着いて...
Audio ends at 00:31:48
Oh, we didn’t go to the camps at that time. This time, um, there was something like
an eve event in the evening on the 17th. I was able to attend it.
I was supposed to arrive on the 16th, but about two days before that, the honorary
chairman suddenly... the honorary chairman of our company passed away,
and there was his funeral. After attending it, I hurried here and arrived just about
an hour before the event...
Side 1 ends at 00:31:48
00:31:48.000
TM
それで昨日までこのバスグループでケローナまで着いた時一緒に合流して晩御飯は一緒にしましたけどまたそれで別れてね。で、自分達だけでLemon Creekの跡に行きました。
でも Lemon Creek っていうのは町が無いんですよね。Lemon Creek っていう町は無いんです。他の Slocan とか Kaslo とか Greenwood
とかは、まあ、よく
Ghost Town って言われていたんですけれど家が、建物が、そのまま人が住んでた家があってそこへ入ったりしてましたけど僕らがいた Lemon Creek とかは確かね、
山を開いてですねわざわざ建てたんですよね、小屋をね。そこへ入って、それが無くなったらさ今行ったら元の山へ戻っちゃってね。気がもう本当45年、6年も経てばそうでしょうね
。鹿がいました。鹿が（？）。
And until yesterday, when this bus group arrived in
Kelowna
, we joined and had dinner together, but we separated again after that. Then, we went
to the site of the
Lemon Creek
camp on our own. But actually, there is no town in Lemon Creek. There is not a town
called Lemon Creek. The other places, such as
Slocan
,
Kaslo
, and
Greenwood
, were often called Ghost Towns, and the houses, ...the buildings people used to live
in were left behind, so Japanese Canadians moved in to those houses.
But Lemon Creek, where we were, was built by clearing woods in the mountain if I remember
it correctly. They built shacks, and we moved in there.
I went there yesterday, but now the town turned back into the mountain once people
were gone. The woods grew... I think it’s natural after 45, 46 years passed.
I saw deer. Deer (?).
TM
そんな所でしたからね。もう自分が居た所がどこか、入ろうと思っても入れなかったです。
Because the place was like that, I wasn’t able to go and see where I lived.
TK
あっ、じゃあ昔の跡が殆ど分からないぐらいに...
Oh, then it was in such a state that you couldn’t find almost any trace of the past...
TM
そう。もうvirgin forest に戻ったような状況です。Creek、Lemon Creekそのものは流れてましたけどね。橋がありましたから。
橋ももう新しくなって前はwoodのbridgeだったけどコンクリートとか組んでありました。小さい橋ですけれどね。
Short pause.
Yes. It turned back almost into a virgin forest. The creek, Lemon Creek itself, was
flowing though. Because there was a bridge. It was renewed.
It used to be a wooden bridge, but concrete was put up. It’s a small bridge, though.
Short pause.
TK
あの、その、昔のレモンクリークの時代の事で何か特に、まあ、松葉さんの場合は演芸会などそういったご活躍された...
Tak gives a small laugh.
誰が言ってたかな？熊谷さんだったかな。
And, um, anything particular from the time when you were in Lemon Creek..., in your
case, Mr. Matsuba, you were active in entertainment shows there...
Tak gives a small laugh.
Who did I hear this from?
Mr. Kumagai
?
TK
あの...何かその頃は何か皆さんも色々衣装までちゃんと持ってらしてかなり本格的なことをなさってたと聞いていますけどね。
And... I heard that everyone even brought various stage costumes and did quite full-fledged
performances.
TM
えぇ、誰が持ってたのかな？僕は持ってませんでしたけどね。仏教会の（ウオ？）さんがわりとお世話をしてくれてね。仏教会の青年団と称してやってましたけどね。
あまり教祖の事自体の勉強はしてなかったかな。
Yes. I wonder who had the costumes. I didn’t have any, though. Mr. (Uo?) from the
Buddhist Church took care of us. We hold the show as a young men’s association
of the Buddhist Church. I didn’t study much about the teaching itself, though.
TM
でもそれがおかげである程度日本語が話せるようになりました。全部日本語でやりましたからね。当時は一世が多かったから。殆ど英語なしで日本語でやっていました。
Short pause.
But thanks to that, I became able to speak Japanese somehow fluently. Because we did
all that in Japanese since there were many Issei at that time.
We did it in Japanese, almost no English.
Short pause.
TK
ただもう一つあの、送還された方
Tatsuo mumbles something
これは送還されたと言うよりも収容された方に共通する事だと思うのですけど、二世の方に比べてやはり収容っていうような事があったがために学校にきちんと行ってなかった。
それとですね...
One more thing, um, those who were repatriated...
Tatsuo mumbles something
I think this is common to those who were interned rather than those who were repatriated,
but comparing to Nisei, they didn’t go to school properly
because of the internment. And...
TM
日本は特に学歴を、成績よりも学歴の方が...
Especially in Japan, educational status is... rather than academic performance, educational
status is more...
TM
学校行ってるか行ってないかの方が重要視されるようなところがありますからね。それともちろん勉強しているのとしていないのでは随分差がつきますから。僕らもそれで苦労しました。
It tends to be considered more important whether we went to school or not. And, of
course, there are significant gaps between those who studied and who didn’t.
We struggled too because of that.
TK
やはりそうですか。野瀬さんっていらっしゃいますよね。あの方なんかはもうのそ、学歴が無いから兎に角日本の方、人よりも二倍、三倍の努力をして、
だからキャリアが募りましてって言う事をおっしゃていましたけれども。あの、松葉さんどうですか？学歴、日本の学歴社会の中でキャリアを積まれえてきたのですから。
そのは事はどうですか？学歴は無いというと申し訳無いのですけれど...他の日本のいわゆる大学...
Oh, you too. You know
Mr. Nose
? He said that because he didn’t go to school, he made twice or three times as much
efforts as other Japanese people did to build his career.
Um, how about you, Mr. Matsuba? How did you build your career in the school-credential
society in Japan? What was it like? Excuse me for saying that you
didn’t go to school... but other people who went to universities in Japan...
TM
00:36:51.000
あのね、学歴が無くてね、内心自分はね、もっとあれば良かったなと思ってる。それは無かったからていうか、無いっていうか、社会に対して僕はその点はラッキーだったのかな。
あまりそれが弊害にならなかった。というのも、あの、会社が全部ね、会社の、日本の人は試験を受けて会社に入りますが、僕はそのような入り方じゃなかったですから。
僕は人に知り合って、何人か知り合って、そして何年か付き合った上で誘われて行ったっていうのが多かったです。
Well, my educational status is not good, and to be honest, I wish I had gone to school.
Because I didn’t..., rather than I didn’t,
...I guess I was lucky in the society in that respect. It didn’t cause much disadvantage
to me. Because, while Japanese all needed to pass the exams to get hired
by companies, I didn’t start any of the jobs that way. In many cases, I got to know
somebody, or some people, associated with them for a few years,
and got invited to work with them.
00:36:51.000
TM
少し英語を話すっていうか英語...僕はまだ日本語を話していたかどうかすら分からないけど、終戦後から日本がだんだん日本が良くなっていくにつれて英語が分かって日本語が分かる人が少なくなったんですよ。
I spoke a little English ... I don’t know if I could even already speak Japanese,
but as Japan recovered after the war, there were fewer and fewer people who
understood both English and Japanese.
TM
どっちもあんまりっていうのは沢山いましたけどね。両方ある程度分かるって言いますか。色んな所で頼まれるんですね。知らない人からでもだれか知っている人を通じて手紙を書いてほしいとか、
どっかに電話してほしいとか言って来るんですよね。そういう事は僕は一切断る事無く引き受けてそれを全部やってあげたんです。それで友達といっぱい出会いましてね。やっぱそれが
word of mouthで繋がっていくんですね。非常に長いことお付き合いさせて頂いています。まあ、ラッキーって言えばいえるでしょう。それなりにその大変だったですよ。
Tak gives a small laugh.
面倒くさい時もありましたよ。だけど一回やってあげて二回目断ったら今度相手も困るから結局...
There were many people who didn’t understand either of them very well, though. I understood
both at least to some extent, so I was asked for help in many places.
Even those who I didn’t know asked me, through somebody I knew, to write a letter,
call somebody, and so on. I never rejected those requests and helped all of them.
So I made a lot of friends from that. Then I got connected with people by word of
mouth. I have been associating with them for a very long time.
So I would say I was lucky. I had hard time too, though.
Tak gives a small laugh.
I sometimes found them bothersome, but if I helped them once and rejected them the
second time, they would be in a difficult situation, so I ended up...
TK
ああ、そうですね。確かに私なんかもこちらに来て15，6年になるんですけど...
Ah, that’s right. I have been here for fifteen or sixteen years now, but I also...
TK
私の場合はもう全く高等学校を出るまでは英語の勉強をした事が無いし、今でも苦労をしておりますのでいわゆるバイリンガルになるっていうなはどれだけ難しいかっていうのは
（？）よく分かるんですけどそういう意味では非常に日本に帰られた二世の方々はラッキーなところがあると思うんですが...ただどうでしょうか。私の方がお目にかかる前に井手さん
なんかとご縁でお知り合いになった方などは、そういう英語ができると言う事に関してそれをキャリアに活かしてらっしゃる方が多いじゃないですか。
In my case, I had never studied English until I graduated high school and am still
struggling even now, so I understand very well how difficult it is
to be bilingual. In that sense, I think the Nisei who went back to Japan were lucky
in a way... but what do you think? Many of those who have known
Mr. Ide
before I got to know him are using their English skills in their careers.
TK
日本に帰られた方で例えば田舎なんかにいらして、そういう機会の無い方もかなりあるんじゃないのかと思うんですけど...
I imagine that, among those who went back to Japan, many people haven’t had such opportunities
because they were in the rural areas of Japan.
TK
特に一世の方なんかの場合日本に帰られて、その、元々英語を話すことのできない方なんかの場合は随分苦労された...
Especially in the case of Issei, those who weren’t able to speak English probably
struggled much after they went back to Japan...
TM
まあ、僕も親父の方は田舎にずっといましたからね。まあ、その、お百姓なんかをしたりしてね、やってましたけども。仕送りもしてましたけど。
Short pause.
Well, my father was in the country side too all the time. Well, he did farming and
so on. I sent money to him too, though.
Short pause.
TM
親父も英語はね、いくらかできたんですけどね。バンクーバーにいた自分には仕事の通訳をしてあげたりとか。お医者さんに行ったりする時は...でも当時は本当にいなかったですからね。
今であれば英語ができるから言われるあれじゃないと思いますけれどね。Strathcona卒業してる... Strathscona Schoolってのがあって今年で百年...
My father could speak some English, though. When he was in Vancouver, he interpreted
for other people when necessary for their jobs, when they needed to see
a doctor, and so on. It was because there were really few people who could do that.
I don’t think you are asked to do such things now just because you can
speak English, though. He graduated from Strathcona... There was a school named
Strathcona School
, and this year is the hundredth...
TM
僕も昨日行って来たんでけどね。僕は1940年に卒業して親父はそれよりずいぶん前に。
I actually went there yesterday. I graduated in 1940, and my father did so many years
before that.
TM
もう三世に近いんですよ、はい。親父は十六歳くらいの時に来た。
Tak mumbles something.
Almost Sansei, yes. My father came here when he was around sixteen.
Tak mumbles something.
TM
ズボンを履かして、歳誤魔化して小学校入れてもらったんだって事は聞いたこと...もう亡くなって九十一歳まで生きて死んだんですけどね。
I have heard that he was allowed to go to the elementary school by wearing pants and
lying about his age... He has already passed away, though.
He lived until the age of ninety-one.
TK
ああ、そうですか。
Short pause.
それじゃあ、パウエルストリートの辺りは非常に懐かしい感じですね。
Oh, I see.
Short pause.
Then, the area around
Powell Street
must give you a lot of nostalgia.
TK
今非常に寂れちゃいましてね。昔は、私は話しか知りませんですけれども、本当軒並み色んなお店があって...
It’s very desolate now, though. I know what it was like only from what people talked
about, but various stores lined up along the street...
TM
ええ、ありました。お豆腐屋さんもありましたしね。今から考えたら不思議なくらいです。魚屋さんから、日本人のタクシーもあったし。
料理屋さんもあった。三味線の音が聞こえてきたのもありました。
Yes. There was even a tofu shop. Thinking back now, it’s even unimaginable. From seafood
shops to Japanese-owned taxis. There were restaurants too.
I heard the sounds of shamisen from some places too.
TK
00:41:52.000
あの、その頃だけれども、いわゆる人種差別って言いますかね。
And around that time, there was what we call racial discrimination...
00:41:52.000
TK
あの、大学に行ってもちゃんとした仕事に就けないっていうような...
Um, even those who graduated from universities weren’t able to get proper jobs, and
so on...
TM
ええ、そういうのはよく聞きましたね。僕らはまだ大学行くような年齢じゃなかったけど大学行っても仕事が無いから、専門の仕事が無いからfishemenになって魚取りに行ったとかね。
Short pause.
Yes. I often heard about it. We were not yet the ages to go to universities, but I
heard that people became fishermen and so on because, even though they
graduated from universities, they weren’t able to get any professional jobs.
Short pause.
TK
あの、おそくなりますからそろそろこのあたりで、あの、あれしたいと思うのですが、ちょっと写真を撮らせて頂きたい...
Well, it’s going to be late, so I think we should wrap up, but I would like to take
pictures of you...
TK
よろしゅうございましょうか。それじゃあ、すみません。
Sound of multiple camera shutters as Tatsuo takes photos of Tak.
明日は、朝は割と早い飛行機でお帰りですか？
Would it be okay? Then, excuse me.
Sound of multiple camera shutters as Tatsuo takes photos of Tak.
Is your flight back to Japan early in the morning tomorrow?
TM
ええ、飛行機はあれなんですけど搭乗でね、8時45分にあって、11時の飛行機で San Franciscoに行くんですよ。
Yes. The flight is not so (early), but boarding... at 8:45. We are going to take an
eleven-o’clock flight to
San Francisco
.
TK
ああ、そうですか。いや、私も昨日、前にお話した時に朝お目にかかるってお話だったのですがやはり日本だと大体二時間くらい前ぐらいに...こちらでは通関みたいなのがありませんから、
朝、本当はギリギリでもいいんですけれども...
Oh, I see. Yesterday, ...when we talked last time, we were planning to meet up in
the morning, but because, in Japan, it’s common to (arrive at the airport)
around two hours before... there is no customs here, so we could arrive right before
the flight in the morning, though...
TM
今度ね、僕が San Franciscoに入るからアメリカの税関が来てるんですよ。
Because I’m going to
San Francisco
this time, I have to go through the US customs.
TM
いや、Torontoじゃない。Vancouver、Vancouverでアメリカの...
No, not Toronto. Vancouver. In Vancouver, I have to pass the US...
TM
そうです。ToronotoからNew York行く時も同じですけどね。税関が来てますね。
Yes. It’s the same when you go from Toronto to New York too, though. The US customs
are there.
TK
ちょっと失礼します。
Short pause.
二、三枚撮らせて頂いても？
Excuse me.
Short pause.
May I take two, three more pictures?
TM
はい。
Sound of camera shutters and zooming in and out as Tatsuo takes more photos of Tak.
Yes.
Sound of camera shutters and zooming in and out as Tatsuo takes more photos of Tak.
TK
もう一枚撮らせて頂きます。
Tatsuo takes one final photo of Tak.
どうもありがとうございます。
Sound of something being shuffled near the recorder.
松葉さんはいわゆる井手さんが会長をなさってますアソシエーションになりますけれども。
Let me take one more.
Tatsuo takes one final photo of Tak.
Thank you very much.
Sound of something being shuffled near the recorder.
Mr. Matsuba, you are in the association of which Mr. Ide is a chairman.
TK
ただ
Short pause
この保障が片付いた後でいったい何をそのアソシエーションでしたらいいのかという事を皆さん色々考えてらっしゃるって聞いてますけど、どうでしょうか？
何か、私共カナダでもですね、日系人の団体はこれからどうやってやっていったらいいのかっていう。やっぱり問題が色々あるわけです。それで、その、若い人なんか、
中々こう、日系人離れをしている人が多いし。それから、例えば私の様な新移住者の世代ですと日系人とは馴染めないところがありますよね。それから大体日系人は二世、
三世の人ですから英語で集まりありますけど私共の方は中々、あの、なんて言いますか、英語で議論したり付き合いきれなかったりしますからね。
Something being shuffled near the recorder.
中々難しいですけれども。日本にいらっしゃる方は何かこれから、何かこういう事が出来たらっていうような事は何かありますか？
Well,
Short pause
I heard that you all were discussing what the association should do after this redress
issue is solved. How is it? We, on the Canadian side,
are also thinking what the Japanese associations should do in the future. There are
of course many issues. Um, many young people keep a distance from the
Japanese community. And, for example, the generation of new immigrants like me have
hard time blending in with the Japanese Canadians. Also, because most
Japanese Canadians are Nisei or Sansei, they gather and speak English, but, how can
I say it, we often can’t keep up with their discussion in English.
Something being shuffled near the recorder.
It’s quite difficult. Do the people in Japan have anything they are planning to do
in the future?
TM
00:46:48.000
実はあの会もですね、僕は関西の方で、大阪で(?)日本にいれば(?)。(?)もう少し力を入れてけれたらとか言われたりしてるんですども僕は仕事の関係で非常に忙しいので
Too noisy to hear Tak.
そういう身分ではないので。
Actually, about that association, I am in Kansai, in
Osaka
(?). If in Japan (?). I have been asked to be more involved, but because I’m very
busy with my work,
Too noisy to hear Tak.
I’m not in such a position.
00:46:48.000
TM
(?)引き受けてはいなかったです。迷惑をかけてはいけないからって言ってるんですけどね。それなのであまり(?)しないようにしてるんです。
だけど関西の方はそういうplanはないけど年に二回ぐらいかな？会って、楽しく、集まる人は、同じような人が集まるようですけどね。楽しくやってますけどね。
井手君がいつも東京から来てくれます。
I didn’t accept (?). I’m telling them that I don’t want to cause them troubles. So
I’m trying not to (?) much. But the people in Kansai gather and have good
times about twice a year or so although we don’t plan it. Those who come seem to be
always almost the same people, though. We enjoy it. Mr. Ide always comes
from Tokyo to join us.
TM
こっちの日系人会っていうのはちょっと僕は時間が短かったのであれでしたけれどももっと
muffling of microphone makes it difficult to hear Tak.
。
With the Japanese association here, I didn’t have much time, so... but more...
muffling of microphone makes it difficult to hear Tak.
TK
えっとですね、ちょっと、あの、いや、必ずしもその（二手？）に分かれてるってんではないと思いますけれども、ただやはり、日系人の団体があってもですね、
それにあまり関係したくないっていうか、縁がないっていうか、そういう方もかなりあると思います。それからもう一つは、この保障の問題があったために昔からの方が、
いわゆる、二世の場合ですとなるべく目立たないように、静かに、なるべくカナダ人の中に入ってていう、そういう行動様式がずっと続いて来た中で...言わば保障問題っていうのは、
そういう今までのやり方とは違う事ですから。そういう意味でそこで一つ大きな断絶だったと思いますし。それから保障が片付いてこれからどうするかっていう事でやはり色々意見が
また分かれてくるなんて事はあったと思いますね。ですからそれが今でも多少、えー、尾を引いているってところもあります。それから保障に皆さん協力した方の中にも、その、
保障が片付いてどうするかっていう事について色々ご意見が分かれています。
Um... I wouldn’t say we broke up into (two?), but I think that there are, after all,
many people who don’t want to be involved in or who have no connection
with the Japanese association. And one more thing is, because of this redress issue...
The people who have been here for a long time, especially Nisei,
have been trying not to stand out and to quietly blend in with Canadians as much as
possible. They have been living that way all the time.
But the redress issue is completely different from how they have been living until
now. In that sense, I think that was one big gap. And I think, because
of that, there have been many different opinions as to what we should do in the future
after the redress issue is solved. So even now, it somehow, um,
still has a lingering effect. Even among those who worked together for the redress,
there are different opinions on what we should do after the redress
issue is solved.
TM
カナダの（group?）のは分からないですけど、なんとなくそういう空気があるっていうのは聞いたりして、話を聞くとそこらへんになると誰もあまり答えたがらなくてですね。
なんかちょっと...
I don’t know about the (groups?) in Canada, but I have heard that there was such an
atmosphere. When coming on the topic, nobody wants to talk about it. So...
TM
どうしようもない。まあ、全員が同じ事に賛成するっていうような事は有り得ないですからね。
It can’t be helped. After all, it’s impossible that everyone agrees on one thing.
TK
00:51:43.000
あの、語りたがらないというのもですね、その、本当に話をしたくないだけじゃなくて実際に、その、上手く説明出来ないと思うんですよね。
私なんかもそれ、そういって風に聞かれますと、例えば現在バンクーバーにあります日系市民協会っていうのがありますけど、その中でも非常に意見が分かれている事があるんですけど、
じゃあ果たしてなんで分かれているのか。えー、突き詰めていかれると非常に困るわけです。それで保障後の色々、保障後の日系人社会でどういう事をやっていったらいいかっていう事に
ついて直接関係をしている人間とそれからそうでない、その、保障の運動には参加してけれどもその後の保障の実施のレベルでの色んな事に直接関係のない人というところに一つの断絶、
切れ目がある事は確かだと思いますね。それで私なんかの場合は保障を実施する段階でその仕事をしましたので...どちらかというとそちらの方に入ってしまうんですけれども。ただ、
保障の運動というのは、これはやはり戦後の日系人社会の中で非常に大きな運動だったわけで。それのいわば、後をどうしたらいいかっていう事についてやっぱり日系人社会の中でも
意見がまとまらないのは、これはちょっと確かだと思うんですね。中々難しいところです。それでそういう事がかえってバンクーバーではその保証の問題が盛んだっただけに難しい
ところがありましてね。例えば文化センターみたいなものを作ろうってのは話があるのですけれどもこれがバンクーバーでは非常にまとまりが遅いんですよね。で、これはやはりそういった事と
関係があると思います。逆にトロントなんかの場合には運動の段階ではあまい盛んではなかっただけに、保障が片付いた後で皆さんまとまりが良くなってきたようなところがあるんだと思います。
まあ、そんな事で。色々頭の痛い事が多い...
Speaking of people not wanting to talk about it, I think they do not only want to
talk about it but also can’t explain it well. It’s difficult for me
too if I am asked... For example, there is an association called Japanese Canadian
Citizens’ Association in Vancouver. There is something on which we were
very much divided. But if we think thoroughly about the reason why we have such different
opinions, it’s difficult to give an answer. As to what we should
do in the Japanese Canadian community after the redress issue is solve, I think there
is surely a discontinuity, a gap, between those who are directly
involved and those who are not, who joined the redress movement but are not involved
in various things in the level of the actual implementation of the
redress scheme. In my case, because I joined the work during the process of implementing
the redress scheme, I tend to be on that side, though.
The redress movement was quite a big movement in the Japanese Canadian society after
the war. I think it is certain that there is disagreement among the
Japanese Canadian society on what we should do after that. It is quite difficult.
And because the redress movement was very active in Vancouver, it’s even more
difficult. For example, there is a proposal to build something like a cultural centre,
but it’s taking a long time for everyone to agree on it. I think this
is because of such a situation. On the contrary, in Toronto, the movement itself was
not very active, but I think, because of that, people started to unite
after the redress. Well, we are in such a situation, and there are many troubles...
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Title
Tak Matsuba, interviewed by Tatsuo kage, 21 May 1991
Abstract
Tak
and his family were interned in
Lemon Creek
prior to being exiled to
Japan
. In Japan they stayed in
Wakayama
for a month where their father had a home before moving to
Tokyo
. They discuss some of the reasons why people decided to go to Japan and the types
of information that were available at the time regarding the
country’s state. In Tokyo, Tak worked at Haneda for the
Occupation forces
alongside American Niseis. After working at Haneda he became a proprietor
of a company that manufactures printer ribbons. He had multiple factories overseas,
requiring him to make multiple overseas business trips every year.
Tak mentions that despite himself thinking his Japanese was alright, he has been told
that his Japanese has improved over the years.
Side 2: Tak describes to Tatsuo what he saw in Lemon Creek last time he visited the
location. He then talks about how education is valued in Japan and how he
was able to find jobs by connecting with people. He also mentions being bilingual
was an advantage at the time because despite the demand there
were few who understood both English and Japanese. They then discuss the wall between
the Nisei, Sansei and the new immigrants within the
Japanese Canadian communities as well as what will happen or change after Redress.
This oral history is from the Nikkei National Museum and Cultural Centre's Kage Collection. Accession No. 2021-7-1-1-3. It describes the experience of exile.
Credits
Interviewer: Tatsuo kage
Interviewee: Tak Matsuba
Transcriber: Sakura Taji
Translator: Keiko Kaneko
Audio Checker: Sakura Taji
XML Encoder: Sakura Taji
Publication Information: See Terms of Use for publication and licensing information.
Setting:
Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Terminology
Readers of these historical materials will encounter derogatory references to Japanese
Canadians and euphemisms used to obscure the intent and impacts of the internment
and dispossession. While these are important realities of the history, the Landscapes
of Injustice Research Collective urges users to carefully consider their own terminological
choices in writing and speaking about this topic today as we confront past injustice.
See our statement on terminology, and related sources here.