Richard Takahara, interviewed by Tatsuo Kage, 31 August 1995

Abstract

Richard Takahara was born in Chemainus , B.C. in 1941. Interned in Hastings Park and then New Denver , he fell ill with meningitis at age 5, allowing his father who was interned at a road camp to visit him. In this interview, Richard talks about why his family went back to Japan after the war, because according to his father, they did not know anyone in Eastern Canada to move there. He talks about the struggles he faced in school in Japan , and the relentless bullying by other students that frustrated him because even though he looked the same as those bullying him, he was still picked on for being different. He says it was especially difficult considering that when he moved there, he did not speak any Japanese. Richard talks about how he did not participate in the redress movement after the war because he was involved in the government, working as a Minister of Transport in Alberta , and emphasizes that money does not and will not compensate what he went through during the internment. He also emphasizes a sense of pride in his identity as a Japanese Canadian, saying that his kids are avid English speakers and he wishes they would be more connected to their heritage and culture by speaking Japanese. Richard also recalls talking with an Uncle who was interned around the age of 18 to 20, and remembers telling him he should have fought back against the RCMP officers removing him, saying that helped him to conceptualize the severity of the internment.

This oral history is from the Nikkei National Museum and Cultural Centre's Kage Collection. Accession No. 2021-7-1-1-3. It describes the experience of exile.

00:00:00.000

Tatsuo Kage (TK)

Okay. Tatsuo sets up the recording device. At the beginning I think I'll ask you basic personal data. You are Richard...

Richard Takahara (RT)

Takahara.

Takahara-san?

Yeah.

And okay, when were you born?

February the third, 1941. I was born in '41, yeah. Pause In Chemainus , B.C. Richard chuckles.

Oh, you are from Chemainus?

Yeah.

Tatsuo repeats what Richard has just said as he writes notes. So you must know people-I think there was a person-have you been there recently? Chemainus?

No, I went back, oh almost 27 years ago-

Oh, long time ago.

A long time ago. Just to see what-where I was born. And also I went to the hospital to see like, just to see where I was born. Also the buildings I guess, they say it was torn down now. Like I was talking to my mother, because I wanted to find out where my father worked and things like that.

Oh yeah.

So, just trying to trace back the history of what happened, and I guess curiosity just to see what where... But apparently Chemainus now is-they're really fixing it up and it's a mural city.

Murals is quite well known, and a few years ago I visited. There was some ceremony Japanese Canadians, and there are two murals. One is about boy scout.

Oh yeah, that's right, I heard yes.

And that is Mr. Yoshida, who started boy scout there. And another mural is some kind of festival-what is called now? Kind of a decoration of some wheel, decorated like a parade?

Oh Richard thinks.

I don't know what it's called exactly, like PNE is doing that. But anyway, that scene, Japanese girls with kimono is all that kind of scene. And that was also done by Japanese artist called Joyce Kamikura , who happened to be also once repatriated and came back.

Oh yeah?

So, there's some connections. And artist who did boy scout is originally from Chemainus area.

Oh, I see.

So lot of different background. Anyway, you are born in Chemainus, and what's your father doing at that time?

He-apparently he was working in my saw mill there.

Oh of course.

And, I guess when he came, he came-his uncle called him over I guess and he was working in a saw mill and, I guess at the time there was a big saw mill there.

And then, is your father Issei right?

Yes, yeah.

And how about your-do you have siblings? Brother and sisters?

I have one sister in Vancouver , and her name is Sachi. Sachiko.

Is she married too?

Yeah, she's married to Richardson. Yeah she was born in New Denver during the internment.

So, okay. Could you tell me about 1941, '42, when the Pearl Harbour came, right, you are moved to-do you remember anything about-

Oh yeah-

That you are still one or two.

Yeah I don't remember that part.

00:05:02.000

Only thing that I could recall, and this is one thing I was trying to get from my mother-what happened and why and-my uncle and why the Japanese were moved into internment camp and all this type of things. Only recollection I have is certain part of Tashme I guess, just before the people were sent back to Japan . I think I was around 4 or 5 then-yeah, 5 I guess, so...

So as far as you know, your movement is from Chemainus to probably Vancouver-Hastings Park.

Yeah, Chemainus to Hastings Park, and I was-my mom says I was just around 2 I guess, 1 or 2, and we were in the Hastings Park. My father was sent to the road camp apparently, and my grandparents and my uncles were sent to New Denver.

Tatsuo repeats what Richard has just said as he takes notes.

Yeah. And my mother stayed behind because apparently I caught chi-mumps and chicken pox I guess there's a lot of kids that got...so we were quarantined in a one of these barn, that's what my-and my mom was telling me that she had to stay back until-

Stay back in Hastings Park ?

No-yeah in Hastings Park.

G. Takahashi (GT)

Yeah, right.

And when I was better, I was, they-my grandparents called me over, or called us over, to New Denver. And, when I was in New Denver, because I guess I just got over the mumps and something like that, that I caught meningitis. And, so I guess I was supposed to be dying there, and so, my-I guess they tried to get a hold of my father, and have him come over because they thought I was going to die. And but, I guess there was a doctor-Japanese doctor I can't remember his name now, and an English doctor called Dr. Francis. They worked on me or something like that. Apparently they say that it was like a miracle that I did survive. And, so when my father came over to New Denver, there were-at that time they were putting a whole bunch of these buildings up for all the people to come to. And my father was good at carpentry so he stayed behind I guess and so that then our family was reunited.

So, from Hastings Park, you and your mom, and you and you have a sister, so went to New Denver eventually, or?

Yeah, straight to New Denver, yeah.

And then your father joined or...

Yeah.

But father came to Hastings Park.

No, it went to New Denver because I was sick in New Denver hospital.

Oh, you are sick in New Denver, okay.

Yeah. I can't remember what-there was a book that I have and one of the doctor from Toronto , he recalled about this child having meningitis.

He did?

Yeah and he said that he treated this boy and it was one of the miracle that he survived. And my mother read that or heard about it and called them up and said, Oh yeah, my son is doing well, and yeah Richard laughs . I like-I've got to find out which book it was in there, but yeah.

Written in English or...?

Yeah I think it's in English.

And Miyazaki is one of the doctors.

It was one doctor was in New Denver.

Japanese doctor?

Yeah.

00:10:00.000

Okay. Okay now-

Those are-I heard from my mother so...

Yeah so where is your mom? Is your mother still well?

Yeah, she's in New Denver.

Oh. What's her name? Do you...

Kay Takahara .

She must be in her eighties?

She's, no-seventy... Richard chuckles as he tries to recall. I think 77 or 78, I think, yeah.

Oh, that's not too old. So she's still quite well?

Yes.

Maybe I should try to call up.

Yeah, they had this-New Denver had this center open up. A nikkei centre. She was very involved in that.

Oh yeah. Yeah there's a famous lady who...

Okay, yeah.

Tatsuo thinks to himself What's her name? Anyways she passed away I think just around that time.

Yeah, it was my mom's best friend, I think in fact, Mrs. K. We used to call her Mrs. K all the time. Kobayashi, no?

Yeah. I bit unusual name. But anyway, I see. Okay so, your father passed away.

Yeah, what I found out-like I was wondering why we went back to Japan, and so I was asking my mother, Why did we go back to Japan? and, she that because he was an Issei, that he wanted to know what happened to their parents. So, when there was a whole choice between-choice was given that he had to come to East, or go back to Japan, because he didn't know anybody in here, that he decided to go back, and I think in was in August '46, I think. We went back to Japan apparently.

So you mean that your parents didn't know anybody in the East?

That's right, yeah.

So you know where you went back? Which...

Yeah, well. Which harbour?

Yeah, which part of Japan?

Oh Fukuoka . We went back to Fukuoka, yeah.

So that's where your father originated?

That's right, yes.

Fukuoka, around where is it?

Honbu it's called, Honbu, I guess. It’s a small village, that's where my grandparents had a-my father's parents had a big farm there. So we went there first, and there was about, Richard thinks , I could recall few things going there, like honestly I could recall when I was going to the-to my grandparent's place, on the train going through, seeing the Hiroshima , you know? Where all the-from the train looking outside the window I could see just a tin shack. That is still in my memories. It was just funny, that's the only thing that I sort of just remember.

So you are, around that time...

5, I guess.

So, do you have any recollection of what happened in the early days in Fukuoka ?

Yeah, well I was-see like when I went back to Japan , it was like you're outsider? So, when I went to the farm, the-like we dressed different, like we had the long hair, the clothing so nice and-nice clothing, where other people had very-their-well, they didn't have anything that we...And, like we were sort of stand out like a sore thumb, and sort of, we were kind of discriminated because kids picks on you. And we're always get picked on, fighting.

00:15:00.000

We stayed in a farm for I think around a year, and then my father-because he had heavy equipment license to drive bulldozers and all that type of heavy equipment, that he saw-apparently he saw the newspaper I had, in American base looking for heavy machine operators and he went-apparently he went one day, dropped by and then he got hired on by the Amer-to work on the heavy-well, driving the heavy equipment. So, a few months later we were called in to Fukuoka, 雑餉(Zasshou) I guess, 雑餉隈(Zasshounokuma) I guess.

雑餉(Zasshou) a place?

雑餉隈(Zasshounokuma) I think that's a small-I think they're about two station stop away from Fukuoka.

雑餉隈(Zasshounokuma) it’s called?

雑餉隈(Zasshounokuma), yeah. Pause But, it was terrible, when I was down there it was terrible. I was discrim-you know, like it's-you look the same Tatsuo hums in agreement , but yet they said that you are not Japanese.

Yeah.

You know. And it's-you go to school and everybody picks on you, and my mother kept my hair long rather than shaving the stuff, and-

All boys at that time.

Yeah, shaved right? And then my grandparents send clothing, which is like English (?) clothing. Is a very fancy clothing, so you go to school like that and like Richard chuckles you get picked on, you know?

The grandparents were in Canada or...?

My mom's grandparents stayed in New Denver .

Oh I see. So that means that your grandparents, that mother's side, could-were able to send packages?

Yeah. And that's where she was getting all this care package to Japan. And we were getting things like pencils with eraser on the end. I can still remember going to school in grade 1 or 2, with some brand new pencils, and here somebody-you turn around and it's gone. Because they would steal it. You fight.

How about your Japanese then? Did you speak?

When I went back, when I went back I couldn't speak Japanese, no. I was speaking English, so it made it that way difficult because I couldn't speak the language, and I could still remember my mother-I don't know, I guess all the books were very limited. So she was writing down textbooks, making the-because she could write Japanese, she making textbooks for me, borrowing some friends textbooks and copying, they look exactly the same so I have a textbook to go to school too. All that kind of stuff I could still remember. And I guess up to about grade 4 I guess we were quite discriminated in the term we were down there.

So at that time, are you going to school-where did you go to school?

In Fukuoka, just outside of Fukuoka.

Yeah I think probably people there are fairly country, not so urban, more in Fukuoka.

Yeah.

Provincial, I think.

It's yeah, it wasn't too far away but it's-it was a big place. And I could still remember walking a long distance to going to school. And long pause it's, up to about grade 4 we were very

00:20:01.000

like fighting to survive I guess. And it was very difficult to think you look like a Japanese and yet you're told that you are not Japanese, so. The funny thing though is that when I came back and I was going to school in Calgary , I met this Japanese friend. And he-they were in Japan before the war, like their parents were in Japan before the war so he was-he went through the war in Japan. And, when we were talking to him he says, Yeah, he says, We were told by our parents to-not to treat these kids that came back like pause Japanese word いじめてやりなさい (Go bully them). So, I guess, so we were saying like, You guys are the one's giving us a hard time! Richard and Tatsuo laugh. Yeah.

So, you are-so you went to school system in Japan until which...?

中学三年まで. (Until the end of middle school.)

Oh yeah. And then, did you come back here unclear ?

Yeah, in 19-let's see, '55... Richard thinks aloud . '51 I think, my father passed away see, because he was-he have accident in American base, and he was killed, and he-so my mother had to go to work and she was working as a librarian for the American high school. And she was raising us in Japan, and one of the vice principals said to her, Well you're Canadian, and you're trying to raise a family in Japan, especially with a father missing is very difficult. So if you're-if you're going to eventually go back to Canada, you might as well go now, trying to get back. So, I guess my mother contacted her father, and once they help on this American vice principal that she got the paper going and... So we came back in August 1995. No, '65. No, '55. Yeah.

So, did you come back with your mom and the sister too?

Yeah my mother, sister, and myself and we went to New Denver, it was my grandparents in New Denver.

Oh, I see.

Yeah.

And then did you leave New Denver for awhile?

Yeah, until-when I graduated from school, I guess it was '61 I guess. I finish high school there and... Pause.

Then what-did you go to...?

Then finishing high school there and then went to Vancouver for a little while, then I said to myself, Well I gotta do-get some training, so I went to Southern Alberta Institute of Technology, and stayed there and took electronic pause . And I got a job with the government, Ministry of Transport, and worked in Alberta all-up and down Alberta, and Northern Alberta, Yukon . Then in 1975, Richard thinks yeah '75, I got a job with-as a instructor, to teach the radar course here, so we moved over to Ottawa .

So your training is electronics you said?

In electronics, yeah.

00:25:00.000

So since 1975 you are in Ottawa.

Yeah, since then I taught for about 2 years and then the school moved to Cornwall , so, I didn't want to go there so I stayed in headquarters, and then I'd been in headquarters, been lucky enough to be in a big project-a transport project. You know those big white dome near the airport? It's right-every airport has one of these, like a golfball?

Tatsuo reads Richard's gestures Ah yeah.

I put all those things up, right across Canada, yeah.

So you're more like hardware?

Yeah, I was in a-because I had some civil experience, I was looking after all the civil engineering and all this construction side of the projects and, yeah. Long pause. But when I came back from Japan , in '55, I didn't know how to speak English, right? Richard laughs loudly. So, when you go into New Denver , it was New Denver community, they didn't know how to handle-like that was first time they say that there's children that they have to put into the school system that they then, know how to do, because then in a big city like this, they have these second language courses for the people-children from outside, they can go and get basic English. When we got to New Denver, there was no such things, so, they were-we were put-in Ottawa it was my sister in grade 1, and I was 15 or 14 then I was in grade 1. And after those four months they said, Uh uh I don't think this is working out. Robert chuckles. So, they put-my sister and I was then put into grade 4 where as-grade 4 or 5 where there was a little bit Japanese kid who was still there, who struggled to learn English, and then I went to grade 7 the following year and then continue on. But there was...

Yeah, it must have been tough to be English.

Ah, yeah, it was. I had a very good support people, like Anne Uphill, she's-

Uphill?

Yeah, Mrs. Uphill, she-I consider her my second mother. She was our teacher then, and her and her husband used to own the hotel in New Denver. And she sort of adopted me as her kid and tried to help me through, so, she done a lot to help me with my English and...

After you get back to New Denver, that life is again-without your father must be not so easy for your mother especially.

Oh yeah, it's-my mother really went through a hardship I guess you could-she came back and then she start working in a dental office as a dental assistant I guess. And, eventually worked as a nurse's aid I guess in an old age home that they have there. And then she retired I guess when she was 65 or, I don't know when she retired but, yeah.

So how about your sister, what-is your sister older than you?

No, she's younger than me, and-no she went through a similar hardship but she went to grade-when she came back, to New Denver, and she was put into grade 4, well it-her grade wasn't that much different. I think she was a year behind Tatsuo hums in agreement . And she had four friends that was about her age group, so she went through the schooling, grade 4,5, 6, 7, 8, and grade 12.

00:30:01.000

And graduated that way, so I think she was about year behind in schooling, if she had gone to school normally. Whereas I was already in 14, and then I went back, so I was behind 2~3 years, but I skip grade 9. They sort of pushed me up so skipped 9 so-when I graduated, I think I was about 2 years behind in the normal, trend of going to school. I always wondered what I would have been if I hadn't gone back to Japan, and gone to the schooling system here.

Oh yeah, right.

But, I think in retrospect, by going back, to Japan, I have learned the Japanese culture, and I-like my wife says that I am more Japanese-y than Japanese Richard laughs. And, because I have, I guess, inside Japanese culture that it-which is it's-hard to pick up when you are just living here I guess, so. I have a mixture of East and West cultures that sometimes conflict in-but, I guess if you look at the overall things I must-although it was hard I must have got the best of the both worlds, trying to think that way.

You said that you are thinking if you are not-you hadn't been in Japan, but just another question the other way around, that-what I mean is that a lot of people who went back in 1946 stayed unclear until today. Richard hums in agreement . So, what you could have been if you stayed in Japan all the way through? That's hard to say.

That's hard to say. It's...I was, I went back to Japan two years ago, with my mother and my sister and my wife, visiting for the first time. Yeah, first time back and it was eye-opener, it was so much change. I went back to where I used to live and the place is very difficult to recognize. The only thing I recognized was big tree and a few things. People that I went to school was there.

Did they recognize you?

Oh, I-at first I can't, but then when you look at it around the eyes you could tell. And many stories were exchanged. But one of the-I guess my mom's-mother's friend, or my parent's friend was a pretty-he was pretty high up in the construction company. Like he's-if I had stayed in Japan, possibly I would be doing some kind of work in his area or-possibly. But maybe they might have sort of looked after us because my mother was a good friend of them and they seemed to sort of looked after my mother. But like, you probably know, in Japan if your husband has smarter than you are, you're-there's so many people competing for the job, right? And it's-I don't know it's what I would be.

Yeah, I think before even getting a job, you have to go to very good school or university in order to get good position, right? So that's harder part. And a lot of I think people, Japanese Canadians, went back, especially those teenagers. Didn't have a chance to get good education because family’s poor and they had to work right away.

00:35:00.000

So they didn't not many people in that generation had schooling beyond high school.

Yeah, it's-when I was in high school down there in, one of the thing always I tell my kids, like we were like any school, you had to have an entrance exam to the next level, right? So, next level was 高校(highschool), and then you had to-we were in one of this teacher's home, was every night getting tutored to-for the entrance exam (?). So, I must have been doing good, I guess, because there were 3 or 4 people were at one of the teacher's place and they were drilled-getting drills for the exams.

Of course that became quite a big industry nowadays. unclear phrase 塾(after school tutoring) is all over, and all kids are going. Yeah so let's Richard giggles what happened here and there I think that you were more satisfied with what you achieved, or...?

Oh it's, I was just retired, but I was saying to my, Mrs. Uphill, she was very proud that-I had achieved the highest I could go in profession that I was in. I end up as the manager of logistic support in radar group, and even if I stayed on, I couldn't have gone any further than that because pause circumstances. But no, it was very satisfying with position that I attain in the government, and look back to the life and I was quite-yeah.

Do you have children?

Yes I have 2 kids, a boy and a girl.

How old are they?

One is 24, and another one is 20. She's younger one, my older one just finished college and he's working now. And my daughter is going to the Carleton University, so.

Do you find that your children are somewhat different from other Canadian kids?

Richard pauses to think. No, I think they're pause it's hard to say, I think they're much more Canadian. But I hope I have instilled some Japanese upbringing, like Japanese thoughts, but I-they're a lot more Canadian than I would like them to be.

How about your wife? I didn't ask you about your wife. Is she a Nisei?

Yes, and her parents, they were interned as well, like they were in-her mother and my mother grew up in the same area in Vancouver Island . But her parents-or, her mother's-or her grandparents, moved to Alberta , and her grandparents are one of the biggest potato farmers in Alberta. So they moved to Alberta and set up a farm in, I guess...

That was after the war, right?

Denji Takano (DT)

Yes. In fact there was-actually there was a video was made. Her father is Ohamas.

Oh Tatsuo becomes more interested that Linda Ohama ’s relation-

Yes. Yeah.

00:40:00.000

Linda is my wife's cousin.

I see, okay. So your wife's cousin, that means...

Linda's father and her father is brothers, I think.

Oh, so your wife's maiden name is Ohama.

Yes. Ohama and Fujimoto is her mother's side. So Fujimoto is a big potato farmers and Ohama is another big potato farmers down in Alberta, see. So...

Yeah I met Linda Ohama quite a few times and so, Linda's sister is in unclear right, both in Montreal . She has a strange name, Baco. That's-Linda told me recently that Baco is coming to Vancouver for I think Emily Carr School of Arts or teaching ceramics or something.

Oh, I see. Linda used to-and her husband used to live here, and then they moved to Vancouver , see. So Linda yeah-I, well we know Linda quite well.

I see. So, I think-do you-just change a little bit the subject, but redress time, it was 1988, do you-were you aware of something going on in Japanese Canadian policy at that time?

Yes.

Before the settlement.

Yeah before the settlement, they-a lot of people were like, I know Kugawa and Joyce, I don't know Joyce but I know her ex-husband David Kugawa. And we're talking about redress and because I was involved in the government, I couldn't get too involved with any of this because you’re a government employee and so I sort of stepped back and I didn't participate in any of the redress movement type of thing. There was a lot of discussions was had Richard laughs in here with few people.

In what way did you-

Well a friend of mine, Tom Saka is-he's from Alberta as well and we used to talk about what-the redress people were talking about getting the money, and I was saying that of all the hardship that I went through that the money doesn't seem to be compensating anything in like, especially with my mothers, my parents, the hardship they went through. Although it's-I was glad that-not in a monetary sense but it, that at least the government has recognized and apologized so that the East-you know like my grandparents-my grandfather was still alive then-no, he passed away before that I think, unfortunately. But at least my mother had-I don't know if that had made her feel better or not, I don't know but, they has put a lot of people through a lot of hardship. Especially I guess, my mother's generation I guess.

Yeah. Talking about hardship, do you think people who went to Japan , like yourself and others, they had much harder hardships than the people who stayed here. Do you think?

I think that yes, definitely, yeah. It's...

00:45:01.000

Japanese people at that time I guess, because they had nothing, and after the war they were-they had nothing. And we were told-I went to school and I couldn't get a book because when the book was handed out, and it was short, we didn't get it. And the teacher used to say-well my mother used to go and say, Well, how come he doesn't get the book? he says. Well that's why she had to-

Copy it.

Copy and make it-some books for us so that at least we felt like we were going to school with a book. And even the teacher says that we're losing a lot of things, rulers, pencils, all kind of things, they're fighting, and my mother used to go and complain, or she used to go to school to complain and the teacher used to just say well they can't do anything. Tatsuo hums in agreement. What can they do? Can't do anything. And also the-like food and at that time in Japan I could still remember pause I guess that it was a normal way that they used to fertilize the garden. Like, you put on all those things. And it's the whole lifestyle was different from I guess, so my mother-I know that she, her water doesn't-didn't match, she broke up in rashes all over and she-no, she had very hard time with health. So...

That's probably-because I think at the time of the redress, they insisted that Japanese Canadians rights were violated. That's why government has to comenstate to amend past injustice. And that itself is a very good argument, and it actually made redress successful. But one problem that's there is that... Recording cuts out.

00:47:47.000

Recording starts abruptly. Yourself, who went back to Japan. That person was dropped from the argument during the redress campaign.

Oh yeah.

And, in the brief present it to the government about 3,4 years... about 3 years before the settlement, I don't think there has been hardly any mention about that. Emphasis was that the internment-relocation internment is based on the racial prejudice of the government at that time. So that's a good point, but that kind of discrimination was extended even after the war. For one thing, Japanese people were interned until 1949.

Yeah.

And a lot are more serious-perhaps more serious as there was those people-Japanese people, including Canadian citizens, were deported. And at that time they are contemplated, actually. In some cases they did stripped Canadian citizenship.

Yeah.

So, I think-like yourself, you are born here, and you can't really, but there was some problem with people who are naturalized to get citizenship.

Yeah. My mother when they went back to Japan I was taug-they couldn't-see they had dual citizenship. All Japanese that was born here had dual citizenships, and when they went back to Japan, apparently the Americans-Japanese that went back were told that they had to select one or another. I don't think the Canadian government has said they have to select one or another but, he was told-my mother were told that if you participated in any Japanese political activities, like voting or things like that, then you will lose citizenship.

Was it at the time when you went back in 1946? Is that the time?

I think that it's throughout when she was living there because I was-that's what my mother said to me, that if they-I think whether that was just a fear, that was told and whether it was actual or not, I don't know, but it was widely believed that by saying that if you are participating in any way, you might lose Canadian citizenship and you will not be able to get back to where were born. So, my parents never participated in any of the political things or voting. We were able to keep the Canadian citizenship and this is why we're back here. It's...but I think-some of the people I think that my mom's cousin that is now living in Japan, she decided to stay because she married a Japanese fella, and I think he was newspaper person or something. So they marry then, had a family, so she decided to stay. Yeah. When we were in Japan a couple years ago we met with them, but their son's (?)so, I guess.

Where does your cousin unclear . You are...

Yeah no, my mother's cousin.

Oh your mother's cousin.

So they’re I guess...

She living in big city or?

Yeah, this lady lives in Fukuoka . And she teaches English. Her sons are pretty successful and they live in Tokyo .

Yeah won't that citizenship or participation

00:52:48.000

in politics and so on, I think a lot of anxieties right after the war because, I think I remember that I was in archives here and there's a form for people who are repatriating, saying that they are renouncing Canadian citizenship. So, I think people asked to sign such kind of papers, but then there was a big fuss in Canada , especially with church people and civil rights people, who said that to deport own citizens is almost like a war crime. And so, I think eventually Canadian government can make that enforced. But I don't know about-when you came back it's '56, probably by then since are straightened out but...

Oh yeah. No, what I meant is that when they went back to Japan , and when they were living in Japan, I think that the first year or so, they have to make decisions to keep one or another citizenships, I guess, in Japan. But I think there was a big fear that if they participated in Japanese politics, activities, that they might lose the Canadian citizenship and they will be stuck in Japan, they won't be able to come back. Richard changes the subject. You want a tea? I can make you a tea.

Oh, sure. Richard gets up from the table. Recording pauses as Richard makes Tatsuo tea. Recording resumes.

Unfortunately if our grandparents, or my mother was here, they'll see more of the Japanese thing. My wife doesn't speak Japanese, you see, and because like I said, she and her family moved to Alberta, so my wife grew up through the Western upbringing of culture. And so when she speaks she doesn't have any accent, and she's much more Canadian in outlook, and so, consequently it's not a bad thing because my kids speak English now and they're doing very well. But, we're missing that little bit of Japanese background-history. I guess eventually now that I'm retired I get more time now that I'm going to try to show what the Japanese are. And we were, like my wife was saying, we are going to take our kids and see some of these Japanese things to the kids so that they know where their cultures come from. So, they had-we had some of these taiko and all that type of thing? We've been taking our kids to some of these activities and things. And they're getting their eyes open I think. So...

Yeah well I think it's-you can't help that people are losing some language. According to some study, after 3 generations, it's quite normal to lose the language. So, our son says-don't speak any Japanese, that's probably natural thing unless there's a very strong organized support from the community.

Yeah, they do have a Japanese school here and we did take our kids to the Japanese school first when they were small, but like they're saying, Oh god, you know Richard chuckles . I guess we should have pushed a little harder. Recording jumps at 00:09:52.

In Calgary, when I was down in Calgary . So I wanted to maybe get back into activity like that, church activity again so.

00:57:49.000

My mother heard that reverend in Vancouver , they wanted me to do something about the Buddhist movement in Ottawa , you see because Robert chuckles. ...

Oh, yeah.

But, because my grandfather was a (?) minister in New Denver , and so, we were heavily involved in the church activities and all the ministers used to stay with us so the reverend-yeah. All the reverends used to come to our house.

Have you ever heard of Reverend Kawamura?

Yes. She passed-oh, or died, yeah.

Oh he died? Tatsuo is surprised.

Yeah passed away.

That must be fairly recent.

Yes, yeah.

Do you know around when? Because I saw him-

In a concerned tone. Oh no, not him. His wife passed away I think.

Oh okay.

Yeah I think it's him or his wife, one of them passed away. Because-no Reverend Ikuta is still in Alberta. And Reverend Kawamura.

Reverend Ikuta used to be in Steveston ?

Y Takahashi (YT)

Yeah, oh yeah. Reverend-they used to come to our house all the time so I know Reverend Ikuta quite well. And, when I was-long time ago, Reverend used to say to me he says, You want to become a minister Tatsuo laughs because you can speak Japanese, and we could get you a scholarship and send you back to Japan and become a minister. And I said, I don't want to go back. Richard chuckles I just learn in English and to go back to Japan again to learn the ministry, I was, no...

That sounded like a good thing to pass, you can learn lot of things in Japan I think, to stay in temple, and...

Yeah, I guess at the time-if they pushed it too-because they were thinking that would have been-at that time the minister needed who could speak Japanese as well as English. So, that was, 30 odd years ago or so.

Yeah, I envy you because you are younger than me, I was-I am just I became 60 now.

60! Richard is surprised at Tatsuo's age. You don't look at all, you look great! Richard laughs.

You are so-about-

54. 54 and a half.

Early to retire.

Yeah. Richard laughs.

Long way to go. You look quite young. So, nobody believes from outside that you are retired.

Well, I would have liked it to work because our work was very interesting and challenging, but the government is doing the big downsizing right now and the division that I was in is becoming commercialized next year, which is-I was in the air traffic control system. And, so next April they would have-we would have become private corporations.

So that's air control...?

Yeah controllers, all the technical equipment, the radars, all the navigation equipment for the airport and everything is becoming private industry. And, I didn't want to be a part of that, I wanted to leave the government with a good taste in my mouth because they were good to me, so... Richard pours tea in the background.

Yeah I think for-some people think unclear in the community work, after retirement?

01:02:47.000

I think because just working people, who are younger in the '30s and '40s are too busy to get too much involved in the community.

Ah, well this is true. I was so busy pause for last 13 years we had this project called RAMP Project (Radar Modernization Project), and it is the complete reorganization of the new radar system in Canada, and that was a 1 billion dollar contract, which is the biggest that the government ever undertook, and it took 13 years to put it together. And so, 1984 we issued a contract, we were all-I was lucky enough to travel all over the world interviewing companies, and so I was quite busy and not only that, there was Richard pours his tea 41 radar sight I put in, and that was from one end of the country to another end, so long way there in Queen Charlotte Island and Sandspit, one in Goose Bay, Newfoundland and up in the North, way up in the North, I went all over. I travelled extensively and-so the work, or the-was very satisfying. We put the-some ice road into Northern Ontario, about 150 miles of-there was no road and we had to put-build a road with ice and go through 7 lakes. The ice thickness has to be over 36 inches to carry the load of the truck with all the equipment, and have to be done in the middle of the winter because, and...

So you physically there?

Yeah, we were there. I was there for about 3 weeks with contractor, getting all the equipment together in minus 40 below weather to get everything right so we could take this equipment through Tatsuo hums in agreement. and a few days before that attempt to start to get warm, oh. It was hectic. So in-that's kind of how it worked, it was very challenging and so, we just-at the last year we finished a completely-the project was completed a year ago.

So that's a particular air system-is that for air traffic?

Air traffic, yes. So right now we have one of the best air traffic control systems in the world. So it's, I was saying to my son a lot of people work for the-all your life and you got nothing to show for. Whereas I could say-I could go to every airport or any country and point at the Tatsuo chuckles and say, I put that one because every one of those, I've been there. I've been there from when they've dug the whole ground, and put in the concrete foundations to when they finished the thing, so.

High up in the North, colder places-do people live there to maintain that...?

Yeah, well, we fly the people in to repair the equipment.

Somebody has to be there all the time?

Nope, it's all remote, yeah. And it's a dual system, so if one fails, the other one configured to keep it going, and sends back signal saying something's wrong or what is wrong and then we send a technician up to the-to fix it so, yes. It's...

Are you-do you have a hobby related to your job? Like nowadays internet communication or that sort of things...?

01:07:49.000

Computer sci, yeah.

It's not your first hobby.

Not a hobby in a sense because you are doing that when you're working, so don't want to do it when you're home. But, I golf-try to golf, and curl, so I guess those are the-

Oh those physical, oh yeah exercises, yeah, sports.

Sports is my things, yeah. I guess another thing too, now that I have some unclear time I'll have to compile all the photographs and pictures that I have taken when I was travelling across, make an album for this project I was on.

Do you have any photos from back-way back in Japan? Or old time? Or mostly your mom?

I think my mother has.

Yeah that-already 50 years ago and getting lost or misplaced, even my own-I have already had my childhood photos that I think I should do something because my mother, still alive, has some. I should get reproduction or something.

Yeah. My son is heavily involved in computers and he works part-time in a computer store as well as other-and he setting up some company, his own company, for computer game type of thing. But, he was telling me that there is a program now, like album-photo albums where you could capture the old photograph and put it in and you can write the-

Captions.

Captions. Also, you press the button and you can talk into and tell the stories so that people could look at the pictures and, have people talk into it so you could press the button and everybody could be speaking. So I said hey, might be a good thing. And I wanted to-one of the thing that is amazing part is that I wanted to find out what happened to us, like they are in internments and-because I-when I was born until I went back to Japan, I remembered all the things when I was in Japan when I was growing up there, and just bits and pieces in Tashme, but, I don't remember the time that I spent in a camp, right? And I was saying-I wanted to find out from my mother, what was it like? What was I doing? What did we do? Why were we there? I was saying to my uncle, well we're Canadian citizens, I said, You were around 20 years old, 18 to 20 years old. If I were 20 years old, and somebody throws me into a ja-into a camp like that, I would be making all kind of demands, things like this. And he said that well, he wanted to, but I guess in Tashme they had a work group, a Japanese youth-younger people in a group, work group, and they were doing the work I guess assigned 10 days to do the work. But he says that if you make noise or complain or making noise, next day, they were not there anymore.

Oh.

Tonight, at night the RCMP would come and take these people and send them to Petawawa I guess, here. So he says that, yeah, he goes, yeah and he just got married, he's had a wife and a kid. He couldn't make waves or say something because he was afraid that would be taken apart.

01:12:44.000

Yeah, that's interesting aspect because, so far I’m told that people who are either Petawawa or Angler , who are sent-around the time of internment getting started, and those people who have broke the curfew orders and things like that. But I don't know if-actually how many people were sent from the camp. I think there must be way to check it. There's a very good list of people in those internment camps, and what year they come and when and so on. I check in with that record to find out actually what happens.

Yeah because he said, well that's what he was telling me, is because I was saying, Boy, if I were at that age and I would have been pounding the desk demanding my rights, and all this. And he says, Yeah, sure sure.

Yeah, I think reading the way they treated, looked at Japanese Canadians, government people, sometimes I feel very angry, even though it's not my own folks. But then, also I had exactly same feeling that if I were there, I'm sure that I'd do something, something back to protestor sabotage or things like that, but it wasn't happen too much.

No, I think they were afraid too, I guess, like you said.

Yeah of course if you have a family for some, then...

But my mom said because my father was an Issei, when we went to Tashme -or before we got sent to Tashme, he was sent directly to road camp, and they didn't even know where he went.

But-you went to the New Denver , right?

No before-like from Chemainus to Hastings Park I mean. Not Tashme, Hastings Park, my father was sent directly to the road camp, and my mother and myself was in Hastings Park. And my grandmother and grandfather there, and my uncle and aunt I guess was in the same in Hastings Park. But my, I said to mom, Where was dad? and she says, Well he was sent to the road camp and they said that they're never going to see him again. And, until I got sick in New Denver, that they were able to call him back.

But, when-in the process of repatriation, there was a-I was just this morning in archives, I was reading on some camp, I think it must have been Tashme or Slocan , number of people there is a committee, making a fairly hard questions to the government, or I think camp authority. For example, that those people who are going to Japan, then what happens to their assets left in Canada, because I think the government or custodian unclear . I think they sold most of the possessions right.

Yeah.

Some-by some reason they cashed or sold yet, so there's some property then. And, I think eventually they made some arrangement for them, that those property should be sold, money should be sent to Japan. But again, there is difficulty at that time. Because no Japanese Canadians are allowed to take foreign currency to Japan. So they get, if they have money, thousand dollars or so, then they get some kind of certificate. And then that is paid to Americans

01:17:47.000

and Americans pay to Japanese. So Japanese-Bank of Japan would pay them, they paid with cash and Japanese yen. But there is a big problem there, because of the Japanese economy slow down, so well protected American occupations, so even though you have a lot of money, you only get thousand yen in cash, cash thousand yen. And this is more like restricted, frozen, and then another problem was that exchange rate was artificially set.

Oh.

And so there is a black market industry. And so I think something like half or one third of the value, of course Americans can't give you so called black market price, but still the Japanese people are complaining about that. Not only-even before they went there, they knew that that happen, so they should do something. Canadian government and American government are sending letters back and forth-

Is that right?

Yeah because from Canadian government point of view, things are doing in the benefit of American some Japanese, unclear Canadian.

Oh I probably know what happened as-because working in a government, bureaucracy, I've been in a government bureaucracy and I have done a lot of these negotiations, I could just about see what happened on these letters and memos, and people meetings.

Yeah actually in the archives-I don't know how big the books or documents, probably at least several hundred of the books are documents relating to the Japanese-

Internment. I might be go and read some of those things, find out what happened.

Yeah, since it's your, anyone can go there.

Yeah.

And, some are restricted it seems but it seems to be mostly related to the individual information. Usually I get 80% of my request to see...wasn't too bad.

I have Tatsuo adjusts recording device making Richard unintelligible.

Oh no no no I don't think I need-and I think I should go soon, I called a taxi already so it's coming but I think just to confirm tell them they can come anytime-actually they come around quarter-to-maybe they could come actually if I phone...

Sure there's a phone there.

Tatsuo gets up and makes a phone call with Richard in the background and the recording device still running. Tatsuo on the phone in the background. Yes, unclear it's number 62 to come to Kanata . I already told him to come for quarter-to-four but he can come any time now. Yeah.

01:22:46.000

Thank you. Tatsuo hangs up the phone and walks back to the table where Richard is sitting. Now talking to Richard Leave in ten minutes or so. And before I finish Tatsuo flips through his notes. Oh yeah, I think this is something we just produced in Vancouver.

Oh yes?

Something to do with Japanese Canadians so you might be interested in-it's very short so easy to read. How about, do you read-still read Japanese?

Yes and no. Richard laughs.

How about speaking? You don't have any problem right?

Well, I think I'm going to have a little bit of difficulty, I think. 日本に行った時に日本語話せますかって聞かれたらもうだめですよって言って. (Whenever I’m in Japan and people ask if I can speak Japanese, I answer, Not anymore.)

いや. Both laugh 大丈夫でしょう. でも一月もいればなおる、戻ると思います。(You should be alright. If you stay there for a month it should all come back.)

一月あったら...(Maybe if I say for a month...)

My daughter is-my daughter came, she was around 10, and oh maybe around 8, one of them. She's-her Japanese is shaky but after months in Japan, staying and speaking Japanese every day, she's okay.

My sister went back-she's married to a Canadian-Air Canada, or Canadian Airlines steward, and so they get to Japan quite often, and she's goes tags along with him. And her Japanese is a lot better now, and it's-and she was saying, When we go to Japan, don't speak Japanese, I'll interpret for you. She can't read Japanese, but I can still read it so when we get lost said こっちよ (This way). Both laugh.

Yeah, in Japan everything is marked pretty well, right?

Yeah. でも田舎の方に行ったら... (But if you go to the countryside...)

私の (My) my father came from Fukuoka.

Oh?

So, but we don't really have much connection now, but used to-my father's uncle used to run small sake brewery there. So we used to get sake until 10 years ago.

From Japan.

Oh, yeah right. Of course not directly but my mother in Tokyo orders a bunch and we smuggle one or two bottles here.

Japan changed...びっくりしたよwhen they changed it. (I was surprised when they changed it.)

そりゃあまあ三十年ぶりぐらい(Well it has been about 30 years since). Do you think you can think of living in Japan? It must be tough for us, living here.

Yeah, ここで住んどったら日本に帰れませんね. (Yeah, can’t go back to Japan once you live here.)

Also it's quite expensive.

What, 60 cents? 60 yen to a dollar I think.

Yeah, that was a bottom I think, it's recovered I guess, about 70 now.

Still.

Still. Right.

昔は320円. (Used to be 320 yen back in the day.)

360円(360 yen)?

360円ぐらいね。あの時日本に帰っておったら物凄い (360 yen. If only I had returned to Japan then.). Richard laughs.

Yeah, my past contact with Canada was mid 1950's. At that time, Canadian was 400 yen, better than U.S. So I thought oh, Canada's a great country! Such a strong country! Richard and Tatsuo laugh. No, since then it's down, down.

Yeah, downhill.

01:27:49.000

Well, next time I go to Vancouver I'll give you a call.

Oh please.

Because my sister just lives in-they just moved to Richmond now.

Oh yeah?

Yeah. I think-

Is that the, Richardson is the last name?

Yeah she just remarried to that Richardson now. She was married to Tae Taniwa.

Oh. Taniwa is a name that-there's artist called Taniwa.

You know Sachi Taniwa? Hairdresserがあるでしょ、日本のVancouverでhairdresser. (There’s the hairdresser, a Japanese-style hairdresser in Vancouver.) TaeとかいてSachiと...私の妹昔Taeの方と結婚しておったのね。それが離婚してから, separated. (There was tae and Sachi... My sister used to be married to Tae. They’re divorced and separated now though.)

Do you know Taniwa the artist? He's from Manitoba ?

No, I don't think so.

Yeah that person who brought up in Chemainus, she was born in Chemainus and painted that boy scout. Yeah...how about the last name?-First name but... brother was Ken but I don't know...he's very striking looking, yeah guy. He had the long hair first so I thought first a Native Indian Richard laughs. He's actually Japanese artist. Tatsuo flips through his notes. I think we're almost finished. I'd like to take your face picture Richard laughs. Let's see, where is the best-oh I think this is-

Oh maybe I'll sit there.

Okay. Tatsuo takes out his camera. Silence while he sets the camera to the best angle. あまり真面目な顔はしないでください。(Try not to have a very straight face.)

そうですか。(Okay.) Richard laughs.

それでは、二、三枚取るので。(Okay, we’ll be taking 2 or 3 photos.) This is something that's flashing to reduce red eyes. I don't know why-how it works, but it seems to be the way it goes.

Flashing, yeah. Pause. カネガエさん。(Kanegae-san.)

あ、カネガエさんね。ニューデンバーの。(Oh, Kanegae-san from New Dever.)

ニューデンバーのカネガエさん。(Yes, Kanegae-san from New Dever.)

Yeah I had strange way with Kanegae-san because I think Japanese like looking senior group on the same plane, and I happen to sat next to a lady, and we start the chit chatting and turns out we Kanegae-san. I didn't know her before her name, but she said that she's a Kanegae, soon afterwards I found out that she's very active.

Ah yeah, yeah. Well, New Denverには(in New Denver there’s) Mrs. Kanegae-san, (?) Polly, I think Hoshino-san and this old lady, people that are very active.

01:32:49.000

And I think they have an organization called Kyowa-kai.

Kyowa-kai, yeah. Kyowa-kai I know. Pause. Yeah eventually, I'd like to go back to B.C. again Richard chuckles . So many people there I know, so.

Yeah B.C., after all B.C. isn't too bad but Ottawa seems to be nice place too.

Oh Ottawa if-to live in Ottawa is very nice area to live in. Torontoはちょっと大きいですね. (Toronto’s a little too busy.)

そうですね(That’s true). Yeah Vancouver is good but in the fall and winter it's a lot of rain comes.

寒いだけで。だけどお母さんこんのよ、こっちには。あんまり、夏は物凄い暑いっつって。冬は物凄い寒いからっつって。(It’s just cold. But my mom won’t come here. She says it’s too hot during the summer and too cold during the winter.) Richard chuckles.

でも訪ねて来る事ありますか? (But does she come visit you sometimes?)

時々。あんまり... (Sometimes. But rarely...)

お母さんじゃあ向こうで協和会か何かの色んなグループの事を... (Is your mother active in various groups like the Kyowa-kai over there?)

はい。お寺の方とか。大抵お坊さん達が来たら寄るらしいです。(Yes. She’s in contact with people at the temple too. If any ministers come, she’ll go visit them.)

ああ、なるほど。そうですね。(Ah, I see, I see.)

イクタ先生達と... (Like Reverend Ikuta ...)

まあ、仏教会も若い人はどうなのかな？どれくらい関係してるのかな？年寄りが多いかもしれないですよね。 (Well, I wonder how many young people are involved with the Bukkyo-kai. I guess most members might be seniors.)

Well, New Denverにはもう... (Well, in New Denver there’s...)

若い人はいないですよね。(Not many young people.)

若い人はあんまりおらないから。だんだんだんだん減っていきますよね。どうなっておるのやろう、ニューデンバーの... (Not many young people around. The numbers continues to go dawn and down. I wonder what’s going on with New Denver’s...) Recording cuts out.

01:35:12.000

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Title

Richard Takahara, interviewed by Tatsuo Kage, 31 August 1995

Abstract

This oral history is from the Nikkei National Museum and Cultural Centre's Kage Collection. Accession No. 2021-7-1-1-3. It describes the experience of exile.

Credits

Interviewer: Tatsuo Kage

Interviewee: Richard Takahara

Transcriber: Emma Sjerven

Audio Checker: Sakura Taji

XML Encoder: Sakura Taji

Publication Information: See Terms of Use for publication and licensing information.

Setting: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Terminology

Readers of these historical materials will encounter derogatory references to Japanese Canadians and euphemisms used to obscure the intent and impacts of the internment and dispossession. While these are important realities of the history, the Landscapes of Injustice Research Collective urges users to carefully consider their own terminological choices in writing and speaking about this topic today as we confront past injustice. See our statement on terminology, and related sources here.