Roy Umeo Uyeda, interviewed by Tatsuo Kage, 15 February 1991

Then, you are almost Issei.

I’m like old Nisei.

And you have two older brothers...

And three older sisters.

And, were you born in Vancouver , Roy or...?

Yes, or you mean my siblings?

No, no.

I was born ... there is a street names Blenheim there...

In the West Side.

It was a little off Boulevard toward the West Side.

In the direction of Dunbar?

There is a street called Blenheim two, three streets off the Boulevard in the direction of Dunbar. You know, there is a golf course in Point Grey . Going down to the south from there, the place called shipyard is still there on the shore of the Fraser River , isn’t it?

Ah, yes.

Now the Musqueam Indian Band lives in the reserve there, making fishing boats and so on. That place was so-called Canada Packers. Or BC Packers? What do you call it? That place... everyone was there... there were about twenty-five Japanese families. At that time, we called the place Salted Cannery, but when I was born, the cannery was already gone. There was just a factory to build fishing boats, and the rest are Japanese fishermen’s (houses?). And everyone took fish to the BC Packers. So the houses were all what we call in Japan shataku (company housing). We all lived in the houses owned by the store.

Um, and until when did you go to school there, on Blenheim?

Um, when I was five, ... maybe when I was about to enter the elementary school in Vancouver in September. I think it was the beginning of September. In 1939. My father, my mother, my sister right above me, who now lives in Richmond , and I—four of us went to Japan. In 1939. My mother fell from the stairs and broke her shoulder bone. Anyway, she got bruise here. So we thought it would be nice to take her to a hot spring (to heal her injury?) Also, because my father had been here for thirty-odd years and had never gone back to Japan, they thought it would be nice to go home. Homecoming for my father and mother. They wanted to have their children go to school in Japan. To have us go to school there, they took the two younger children with them.

Oh, I see. Then when you were little, you didn’t go to school in Canada ...

My first school was in Japan. Because (the school year is different) in Japan, we went there in September 1939, and I entered the Japanese elementary school, a local elementary school, in April the next year, in 1940, the 15th year of Showa.

And you came back to Canada before the war started?

Yes. The next year, in 1941, after I turned grade 2... as soon as I turned grade 2, in June. I came back to Vancouver in June. My mother had already passed away in Japan at that time. My father had already come back here in six months or so.

Then, you mother had already been sick at that time...

(?) My father came here. Because he was too hasty to decide everything... he came back to Vancouver about six months after we went to Japan. When the ship returned to Japan, my second oldest brother came to Japan.

My father told him to go to Japan. There were several ships, such as (?), and so on at that time. When the ship my father was on back to Vancouver returned to Japan, the second brother came to Japan on my father’s suggestion.

Oh, I see. And that was in 1940...

It was in summer of 1940.

In 1940, your father... Long pause as Tatsuo possibly takes notes. And you went to Kyushu in Japan?

To Fukuoka . The area close to Oita. The other side from Hakata. In the east side.

So you came back here in June.

In June 1941.

Where did you live at that time?

We went back to the same place. It was called Celtic... C-E-L-T-I-C Cannery. Then in September that year, September 1941, ...there is a school called Kerrisdale School at 41st and Carnarvon. An elementary school. I entered that school. But because I couldn’t speak English, I was two years behind. Long pause.

So, how was it before you went to Canada? Your speaking in English and Japanese?

Easy words, such as papa, mama, hello, thank you, yes, no, ... those were easy, but conversation was... I wasn’t able to have English conversation.

So, how was it before you went to Canada? Your speaking in English and Japanese?

At home, my parents were from old time Japan, and in (?), there are Japanese in a group, so we mostly spoke Japanese. If I had been surrounded by Caucasians and had had chances to play with children who spoke the language other than Japanese, I would’ve naturally learned English quickly. But in my case, because I grew up among such a group of Japanese and my parents spoke Japanese, I wasn’t able to speak English. I understood only those easy words because everyone at least used those easy words. So when I came back here in June 1941 and entered the elementary school called Kerrisdale in September, my older brother (?) alphabets and so on (?). That oldest brother also came back, ...came to Japan. I wonder how long after my second brother came back it was. My oldest brother, who is in Toronto now. Soon after he came back, my mother got sick and passed away in a few months. Then the oldest brother took two of us around. If my mother hadn’t passed away, I might have stayed in Japan. I’m not sure though.

I see... an elementary student... Short pause. When you came back here and entered the elementary school in Kerrisdale, what did you do with a Japanese Language School?

Oh, there was a Japanese Language School in that Celtic.

Oh, I see.

Yes. Well, just like the one on Alexander here, ...like those in Steveston that are doing various things now, many different Japanese communities seem to have had their Japanese Language Schools. We had one too. Kids just made noises, had snacks, and so on, so we didn’t learn much, though.

I see. It seems that there were so many of them before.

Yes.

I heard that there were as many as thirty or forty Japanese Language Schools.

In our Celtic village, there was a teacher named Shima. The teacher and his/her family were on the same ship when we went to Japan in 1939, 1940.

They were from Mie. Mr./Ms. Shima was an old-school teacher, a formally-trained teacher. I heard that people here invited him/her recently, in the 80’s. They said there was something like a reunion. The teacher (?) to Toronto .

I see.

I don’t remember what happened after the teacher came back, though. There was at least somebody. We at least had a Japanese Language School.

Then, when the war started, how old were you, Roy?

I just turned eight years old. A month after I turned eight. Pause.

Do you remember things like Pearl Harbour and on at the time when the war started?

I do. School, ...at school, ...I was grade one. I was very uncomfortable. I don’t know if I was too sensitive, but, of course, there were many older children. Their behaviour was not very good, and the grade-one children, same as me, said something like He’s a Jap. I think parents talked about various things and children learned those without parents noticing it. Those racial thought (?). When I was called jap, for example, I was very uncomfortable. Then the war... In Europe, Nazi Germany, Hitler invaded Poland, and hatred increased. Also because Canada joined as a member of (?). And once the Pearl Harbour got attached like that, things went even worse. What do you call it... war effort? And the Red Cross (?) made us bring rubber, scrap metal, and so on to school. Lots of them. Roy mumbles something. They had us bring lots of scrap like that to school. Rubber, scrap metal, and so on. Those kinds of things were done regularly by the groups such as the Red Cross , all women, because men were all gone for the war. Women in uniforms came to collect those things regularly. Roy mumbles something. You know there is a wagon for children. The one with these four wheels. There was one donated by somebody, and because it moved, children all played with it. There was a slope in our playground, so we took it there. While we played, it got broken. A piece in front of it came off, so I took it home to make a replacement piece because I didn’t know it was donated. I took it home. Then a teacher in charge came like (?) during our class. Although I didn’t fully understand his English, what the teacher was saying was, There must be a boy from (?). I don’t know if the teacher said Japanese. There must be the boy. Let me talk to him. So I was summoned and taken to a different room. Just like a detective making a suspect to confess, I was (?) You stole this on this date, didn’t you? By that time, I gradually understood what was going on Roy talks with a laugh. I was lying at first, but (?) so I said that I would bring it back next time. Once I brought it back, that was it.

Thinking back, I felt like I was being treated like a criminal.

And then, after you entered the elementary school, at the time when you were relocated. In your case, Roy, because you lived in Vancouver , you of course went from where you lived straight to the destination, didn’t you?

To (?).

That’s right.

Other families in the Celtic village all moved out one by one by around March or April. Only our family was left behind. As far as I know, because my father was stubborn, he refused to move out by giving various reasons. A child is screaming in the background. But in May, a letter came from the office controlling enemy aliens or something. I remember the letter came. So I think they decided that we must move out despite those reasons. Then my father thought we had no choice. By that time, my older brother... he is the oldest brother, and I am the third one, ...he had been in Slocan since around March or April. Just like an advance party. There were a few real carpenters there, weren’t there? They trained people to be makeshift carpenters. They provided everyone with tools, such as hammers, (?), and so on to have the uprooted families live there together. You see in the pictures. To build barracks like those, people like an advance party were sent there. My brother was single, so those young people were sent. I think my brother went there by around March. Anyway, only children and women were left behind at home. My father was a bit old, so... But we couldn’t stay there anymore, so we moved to the Hastings Park .

Oh, you did.

Yes. But, although I have never asked my father about it, I think we were in the Hastings Park only for three or four weeks. We went there late and left there early. We already moved out by June. So we were sent to the Hastings Park . Roy and Tatsuo quietly talk to each other. There are also clattering cups or plates in the background. And after being in the Hastings Park for a few weeks, we went to Slocan in June. I don’t remember the date, though. A little before mid-June. One or two officers from RCMP escorted us on the train. It took about two days. Slowly, slowly by train. By that time, the makeshift carpenters worked hard and cut open the bush. They also used bulldozers to cut little trees all at once (?).

They did works like cutting down trees directly with a bulldozer. A child is saying something out loud in the background. So (?) was there. There was a link on the outskirt of Slocan City . There was an old skate link. And in the open space in front of it, they put tents, that were originally for the Canadian Army, round military tents. They put lots of them and made wooden floors. Families lived there. They also put... what do you call it? ...bunk beds, the beds stuck like this, in the skate link. We moved in there by family. In the link. We went there in June, and from around September, ...I don’t remember if it was decided by drawing lots or how it was decided, but we were given houses. Based on the numbers of family members, and so on, houses were given. Until that time, we had meals in the dining room set up in the link. What I clearly remember in my child’s mind is..., you know, I was in the Hastings Park for a few weeks. And once I came to Slocan, the food we ate was completely different.

Was it better?

(?) All the Japanese there (?). I don’t know why, but anyhow it was better. It was completely different. The food in the Hastings Park was really inferior. The meals in the Hastings Park were like (?). And milk too. (We could drink milk as much as we wanted?) The butter for toasts were this tiny. Everything was not delicious. Fish also... this little piece of yellow smoked fish, not delicious at all, was often served. That didn’t taste good. Once we went to Slocan , Japanese cooks there would say, Isn’t it good? The meals here are good, aren’t they? because meals there were much better. There was a big difference. Not always western meals, though. They served rice too.

Um, how was the school in Slocan?

The school started in spring of 1943. Until then, the makeshift carpenters were just (?). Once my father came to Slocan... you know, parents went through terrible experience. The fortune and businesses they spent decades to build were all taken away. Because I was a child, I didn’t understand it well, but one thing I felt as a child was that, once I went to Slocan, I felt like my mind (?) was relieved and refleshed. Here, the atmosphere was full of hatred, and I felt stifling. In Celtic, we were the last family who stayed in the barrack. Then for a few weeks, ...I don’t remember very clearly, though, ... my sister and I were the two only Japanese students in the class of the Kerrisdale Elementary School. Only two of us were left behind. Other than us, the only Asians were Chinese students. And because Chinese didn’t want to be mistaken for Japanese, they tried to stay away for self-preservation (?)... discrimination... Then they proclaimed, We are Chinese! They are Japs. (?) We were isolated. I felt small and uncomfortable. When we ate lunch, boys gathered in a big classroom and ate together.

In lunch time. Girls gathered themselves too. Nobody sat with me. I was very (sad?). Even during the classes, (?). Once I went to Slocan , because everyone was fellow Japanese, I was no longer discriminated. Because we are all the same ethnicity. That really made me feel relieved and relaxed.

Um, there must be many (people?) in Slocan.

Yes. I wonder how many people were in Slocan. Thousands...

As many as that?

Yes. That Slocan Valley ... Slocan City was there. And Slocan City was so-called a Ghost Town. In old days, from the beginning of 1890’s and at its peak, if you look at pictures, (people gathered) from outside, dreaming of making a fortune. That was a silver mine. (?) was a gold mine, but that was a sliver mine. The former mining site was still there. Silver mining. When the mining was going on, many people were there. About twenty-five thousand people. From the so-called prospector to those who came to dig out all the silver bullions and to (?) you often see in the American western movies. You know this swinging door, in the western movies, that open from the middle like this and that people rush in through. The city was like that. Those buildings were there. Hotels and wooden three-story or four-story buildings. They renovated those. So several families were in one building...

Oh, so there were still buildings left in the usable conditions.

There were. Yes. Usable if renovated. There were many things we could use as far as we fixed them. We fixed empty houses, or the abandoned houses. So, how many people were there in Slocan City? Going down the Slocan River, there was a farm. And next to the farm, there was an elementary school. A school ground and an elementary school. Right next to them was a flat forest. They cut down the forest with bulldozers and made streets like a grid. They built two public baths. Then along the highway was A-line. And was the highway running from south to north? I’m not sure. I forgot that, but at right angles to it, there were avenues... 1st avenue, 2nd avenue, and all (?). A few thousand people lived there. I think there were at least two or three thousand people. And from Slocan City, ... Roy tries to remember the distance from Slocan City. was it about two miles? I think two, three miles from there. Now that place was called Bay Farm . Because there were farms, we called the place Bay Farm. And about two miles further down the river from there, there were farms of cows. There was a Ukrainians or (?), named Popoff, who had a farm there. They took that person’s name. So there was a place called Popoff , similar to Bay Farm but with much fewer houses. Probably half of Bay Farm. There were about a thousand people there too. And further down the river was Lemon Creek .

Lemon Creek was much bigger than Bay Farm.

Oh, I see.

Much (?). That’s Slocan Valley. So when we were relocated in around 1942, Slocan Valley had the most people. In Slocan , Sandon , Rosebery , New Denver , and so on. Eventually the place called Sandon was closed and combined with Slocan Valley , Bay Farm , and the places in that area.

Were you allowed to come and go freely among those nearby internment camps?

No. We needed a permit. I think we needed to get a permit from the RCMP to go out.

Oh, I see.

My father’s (?)... there was somebody who stayed with us for four years, and the person took me to Nelson . Nelson. Nelson is (a big city?), isn’t it? So for Japanese to go to Nelson, we needed to report to the RCMP and get a permit. And you know, there is a place called Perry Siding a little down the river from Lemon Creek. The bus stopped there, and the RCMP, a police officer came in to check our Japanese identifications and permits... Children didn’t need them, though. They checked the permits. So I think adults in New Denver and other camps in that area needed the permits too. I don’t remember it for sure, though.

I see. Long pause. Um... about the life in the camp, ... how did adults make livings?

In Bay Farm , most men worked in the mountain, so-called log camp. On trucks,... they got on a few trucks (?) every day and went to the mountain to cut down trees for lumber. There was also a sawmill. (?) went to a full-scale bigger mountain like migrate workers. I wonder where it was. I don’t remember. A large... The mountains around Slocan were small. So they went to a full-scale work camp in a further mountain..

Oh, I see.

From around that time, firewood for each family... I wonder how long it was. The biggest ones were... Most of them were around this size. They cut down various kinds of trees in good sizes, such as pine trees, maples, birches, and so on, into good length, and then put them on medium-sized trucks. I think people called them when they were running out of firewood and asked them to bring more. Once people let the person in charge, the office, know, they delivered it in big pieces. And then, ...That was done by a group of people. Then, there was another group of people who cut them into pieces. Two, three people moved around. We could cut them by ourselves too. Some people did it themselves (?) There were not many people, so we asked the group to do it. The group did it for us. And because we were Japanese, we served them tea, and so on (?). And the bath... There were public baths, and they were free. We had two of them. Two in Bay Farm. Around downtown. The big ones, separated for men and women. There were huge bathtubs. (?). Often, there were some spaces at the back of each house, and we grew vegetables and so on there.

Everyone grew vegetable at home. Because Japanese are all good with our hands, we grew a lot of vegetables and so on. Some people (? for hobby?). You know, there was (?). They cut it and made go game boards. Some people, of course, made shogi pieces too. What do you call the board to play go on?

Goban.

Some people made those kinds of things.

I see.

There were some people who were clever with their hands, so they created good ones. We sometimes had competitions and exhibitions. They created some bonsais using wires like this... arranging chrysanthemums and so on nicely with wires like this. Skillful people did that. I think there were some professionals too. They used materials around them in handy. Everyone devised various ways. Japanese... There is very hard wood, and they could make broaches and so on with it. It’s really hard. Some people cut that and made various things, ...cutting roots and making ikebana-stands... the stands to put potted plants on... (?) for ikebana.

I see.

So, if you want to do something, you can devise ways to do it. They say, Where there’s a will, there’s a way.

Okay, adults had those hobbies, but how about children? They played...

Well, school started in the spring of 1943. Teachers were those who just graduated from grade 12 in high schools around Vancouver, the coast areas, ... those who finished grade 10 or 12 were recruited as teachers. Because there was an exam, the quality of teachers was actually high.

Oh, I see.

My English skill was zero, but it improved a lot in Slocan.

Oh, then you studied English too. Not only Japanese.

Japanese was prohibited.

Oh, was it?

Teaching Japanese was banned.

Then you were taught mostly in English in that high school.

It was so-called a public school, so in English. The school board in BC, ...what do you call it? ... under the direct control of the office in Victoria, ... had a strict exam, and if you didn’t pass it, they failed you (without hesitation?). That was the principle here. And many people failed. There was a very strict officer, named Mr. (Anesty?), from the division of the Ministry of Education or something in Victoria . He often came for inspection. He came in to the classroom in the middle of the class, saying (Show of hands?)! and made records of various things. He even bluntly took (notebooks?) away from students and check them like this. We were trembling. Then, during summer breaks, teachers were called for seminars... for teacher upgrading or updates... or for both. They called in only teachers and were doing something. They called them to New Denver or somewhere. Anyway, although those teachers were amateur, they were (well-trained?) in my eyes. I learned English there (?). When I went to Kerrisdale School in Vancouver , I only managed to keep up, but after I went to Slocan , I finally mastered it.

Um, you (?) at school as you said, but did you play with other children in Japanese outside of school?

Children spoke English, after all.

Oh, I see.

Mostly in English.

But different (?)... They didn’t speak English but spoke their own language. I don’t know if it was Ukrainian or something, though. Competing them, Japanese children sometimes spoke Japanese but were not fluent. At home, parents spoke Japanese (?), and children also went to the Japanese Language School, secretly.

Oh, I see.

Yes, secretly. But they didn’t learn much. Because it was illegitimate, everyone (?). Children ate snacks, looked around, and so on, just like children in Celtic did, so they didn’t learn much Japanese. (?) Other than school, we were free to play on Saturdays and Sundays. There were lots of fish in the river, and in the lake too, so children... Adults were not allowed to fish. It was illegal for adults to fish. If they did, they were fined, and tools were taken away.

Oh, I see.

Yes. It was clearly racial discrimination. Japanese not allowed to fish... Adults were not. Children were okay, though. Minors were. So adults all went fishing secretly. They went out before dawn and came back after sunset. They crossed the mountain to the deep valley (?) to fish and brought back their rucksacks full of fish. They came back after night fell.

Oh, then they got that much fish...

Yes, there was a lot of fish. Because it was deep in the mountain, trout were (?). They didn’t (afraid of?) people. So my brother bought cheap meat, and stringy meat is usually tough, isn’t it? He put that to a fishing rod, then fish bit at it. He caught the fish and put it in a bag, and the bait could be reused many times because it doesn’t get gone so soon. Worms would melt away soon, though. Tatsuo agrees. He put meat and stuck a hook in it. Fish like trout is fierce, or savage, so aggressively bit on the bait. Children only fished something like (?).

Okay.

When I was a child, I hadn’t even fished (?), but those I knew had (fished?) trouts (?). We were close to mountains, so we often went to the mountain. We picked brackens. There were also (matsutake mushrooms?).

Oh, was that so?

We picked brackens and wild lilies. It was fun to do various things. There was only vast nature around us. Winter there was severe. It snowed a lot, and the temperature went gown quite low. So things got frozen. In winter, we went skating and went to the mountain for sleighing or skiing. In summer, we played in the river.

What was the houses you were given at that time like? Did around two families live together?

Small families or families with just one child shared a house. For example, one family used half of the house, or a family let their parents use a third of the house(?), or something weird like that. Or maybe they too split the house in half. I don’t know. Some people seemed to do that. Because my family was a big family, we used a whole house (?). There was a house like this, there was (?) in the middle, and there were windows like this. There were windows on the sides too. There was also one window on the back. When we just moved in, (?). There was a stove for heating right in front of it.

At the back, ...going to the back a little, there was a kitchen stove and a sink. On both sides, (?). The kitchen was too small, and most people extended their kitchens. Extended (?). Many people installed water pipes too. The water pipe came to the avenue in the neighbourhood, and there were faucets we shared. If we wanted to extend it to our houses, we did so at our own expenses. And because it would get frozen, they had to dig the ground deep They needed to dig around 6 feet deep, otherwise, it would get frozen. We did that and extended the water pipe to our houses. We also dug the ground underneath our houses to create a simple cellar (?) to store vegetables, we called it (?) house. If you dig the ground, naturally (?). We stored carrots and cabbages we grew during summer. We took those out when it was freezing cold, in December, January or February. They were actually fresh. We were not able to get good seasonal foods, but, in terms of vegetables, we were able to get quite good ones. The leaves on the surface of cabbages were black and rotten , but after removing a couple of leaves, the inside was perfectly good. We kept cabbages, carrots, and so on. Difficult to hear Roy do to people talking in the background. . What kind of things did we have? Carrots, cabbages,... what else did we have? Onions. We often stored those vegetables. So we were almost half self-sufficient. Adults got punished if they fished, but (?) there... END OF SIDE 1

We were able to live almost self-sufficient lives if we managed well.

Then, now let’s go to our main topic. It’s about the time when you decided whether to go to Japan . In your case, Roy, your family was to decide whether to go back to Japan or to go to the east, right? Did you family talk about...

We did. My father said it was unbelievable. What he had been doing in Canada was (?). There were so-called signings twice. They set a special signing site at a school or somewhere, and everyone had to go there to sign. Mounties, the RCMP , came in their official red tunics. And everyone signed. At first, ...I don’t know which year and month, but the first time we signed, more people signed to go to Japan (than to go to the east).

Yes.

But once we learned that Japan was likely to lose, it changed. We were called for signing again, and people cancelled. There were (?) people who cancelled to go to Japan. Many people did. Possibly half of them.

Actually, at first, more than ten thousand people signed to go to Japan.

I guess so.

However, the number of people who actually went back to Japan was about four thousand.

Yes, yes.

So more than half of the people...

I think so. My father also talked about it (?) a lot. Everyone just talked about it. At home, in our neighbourhood, ...we talked about it with our neighbours over the fences. Even though I didn’t want to hear it, I couldn’t help hearing it. At first, there were many people about whom I thought, Oh, even those who have such a way of thinking as Caucasians do are going to Japan.

Yes. Then, at first, you felt that there were more people who wished to go to Japan than you expected.

Then, I remember that many people changed their minds and decided not to go once they learned that Japan was likely to lose. (?).

Um, do you remember clearly anything that happened when your father decided to go back to Japan? For example, he lost his properties, and so on...

Well, my father had already been naturalized. It was a long time ago, though. I don’t know or remember how many years ago he became naturalized. He was naturalized (?), but his naturalization certificate was just water paper now, wasn’t it? The paper had King’s (?). In the (?) ceremony, he was told that he had the same right (?) as Canadian citizens, and so on. But it became just waste paper. So my father was very disappointed or felt betrayed. Anyway, that was how he took it. So although he looked like a (?) man from old time, it was a conservative thinking, though. So from the beginning, he said he had finished with Canada. Now difficult to hear due to background noise. . Because we were little, there was nothing we could do. Because my older sister, who is in Richmond now, was seventeen or eighteen at that time, she was a grown-up. So respecting her rights, she was told that she could do whatever she liked. My oldest brother right above her had a big influence on her at that time. That oldest brother and the third one went to Montreal in 1944 or so. They moved to Montreal while we were still in the camp. I think it was around September. The government, the BC government, encouraged to go to the east.

Yes.

Because going to such a place would open up no future, and also because the third brother was still young, he thought there might be a new path open to him if he went to the faraway place. The third brother has been keeping his promise (?) for forty years (?). (?) stays in Slocan, though. (?) above me, the youngest... the sister who is in Richmond now is right above me, and the sister above her was around seventeen or eighteen at that time. The oldest brother in Montreal also said she could decide herself whether to go to Japan or to stay in Canada because she was already a grown up (?). So four of us, including my father, (?). My mother passed away in Japan in 1941. So four of us, my father, my two sisters, and I went to Japan.

Tatsuo sounds to be taking notes. Your father and your sister...

Two sisters. Two sisters who (?). Sisters who were single.

Including you, Roy, four of you...

Four of us. My father and three siblings. In June 1946. So I was in Slocan for four whole years.

I see. How was it? Because you were in Japan around the time when you entered the elementary school, did you remember things in Japan well?

Yes.

In that sense, I imagine that you were not much reluctant to go back to Japan. How was it?

Well, rather than being reluctant, I felt like I was in Japan just a while ago even though fives had already passed. I didn’t feel like such a long time, five years, had passed... anyway, I just thought that I was going to Japan again. Because there was no choice. I had no power to make the decision. Anyway, the news always reported that Japan was losing a big war. They were losing the war and being bombed, frequently receiving fierce bombing by the US. We watched such news in English. Above all, atomic bombs were dropped. We knew those things, so even though I was little, I was worried what was going to happen to us if we moved to such a place (?). Although I didn’t fully understand, I understood that we were going to be chase out of Canada. Although the US, (?) countries (?), we are going to lose connection with Canada. Before the war, we were able to go to Japan freely and come back freely, but this time, we were going to Japan based on some important signing, so it was different from the last time. I had something like an oppressive feeling or worries. I was a little child but had complex feelings. Japan lost, and we were enemy aliens... anyway, we were going to be expelled. We were told to make a choice, whether to go to the east of the Rockies or to go to Japan. There were two choices, but those were not positive ones. It was an ultimatum. So I had complex feelings and was worried so much. The treatment... For example, the war had already ended... In 1945.

Yes.

In June 1946. Almost a year and ten months after the war ended (?). But we were on a special train (?) accompanied by the RCMP again, just like when we went to Slocan. After leaving Slocan, we traveled on the train for about two days.

And then we arrived at the station of Pan Pacific, which is now near the Convention Centre. We were there a whole day. We were not allowed to leave there. We were under strict surveillance by the police. It was almost like house arrest.

Were you in (?)?

Yes, in (?). I was around there to move and stretch my body for a while, but I was not allowed to leave there. (?). If we wanted to go out to the city, they were told to make a special group and were accompanied. They were only allowed to go (?). (?). So, although the war had already ended, we were treated like prisoners of war. I grew up in such an environment. Then, (?) in a military vehicle. Was it called a Liberty Ship? Everyone (?) during the war. There were repatriates from the US too, not as many as Japanese in Canada, though. Those who were repatriated from the US... those going back from the US and those from Peru in South America. There were people who were sent to the US, stayed there for a while, and then went to Japan. Just like us, from Peru.

People like Nisei...

Yes. But they didn’t speak English. Just Spanish.

Oh.

So, their Japanese were broken. When we communicated with them, both of us spoken broken languages with Japanese background. We spoke English, and they spoke Spanish. So it was weird. We were all Japanese, but we felt completely different. South American people. Japanese South Americans.

I had never heard of it before. There were people from the US , Canada , and from Peru , too.

There seems to have been a president’s statement.

Was it in Peru?

Yes. The government of Peru seems to have treated Japanese very badly. They (?) the US. The economic situation in Peru is terrible right now, isn’t it? Peru often turns into something like an anarchical state. It’s always like that and is especially in the worst state now in the last few years. At that time, still... Japanese in Peru seems to have been treated terribly. Then being sent to the US was like...

Being kicked out to the US. Like being expelled to the US.

Yes. They left everything to the US. And the US detained those people. They were detained in some camps in the US. So they, the people from Peru, Japanese Peruvians, too experienced terrible treatments. Just like what happened here, their farms were taken away, and they were uprooted. The US interned Japanese Americans and send them to Japan. After all, the Peruvian government left the internment and repatriation of Japanese Peruvians to the US government. We, Japanese Canadians, were also put on the same US military shift and travelled for about two weeks. Because it was a US ship, there were abundant things. Although the meals were not that tasty, we were able to eat as much as we wanted. Chicken, beef, and everything. They had a lot of everything. The richness of the US could be seen everywhere. One day, we arrived in Yokohama . They unloaded baggage and so on. There were some families of the American Occupational Army in the American Citizen (?). Then we went to the place called Uraga and landed there. Once we landed in Uraga, we all (?) our belongings.

From Uraga, we crossed the mountain and went to Kurihama, where the National Defence Academy is now, on a truck. I learned this when I went there for a walk later, but that was the place where the man named Perry landed. Was it in 1853? There was a monument telling that Perry demanded Japan to open up the country. For two weeks, we stayed there ... Was it a military training ground? It was a wooden three-story military housing previously owned by the Imperial Japanese Army. We were there for about two weeks. Then each of us was sent to our hometown. When we were in the temporary detention facility in Kurihama, we were able to eat military provisions. What did we call it...combat rations? Hardtack for soldiers to bite when they (?), and so on. There were rations such as hardtack for combat, and so on. It didn’t contain any (sugar) at all. We were used to (?). At first, (?). That was all we could get. (?) we savoured the real taste of wheat. We ate wheat instead of rice. The side dishes were canned food most of the time. Various canned food, such as cans of fish. I heard that (?) military (?).

I see.

There were also sweets, which were originally for soldiers to gain energy.

Were there? Tatsuo sounds a little amused.

We were given those things. That was good. From there, the repatriates (?). We were sent out from there. Once we left the station in Kurihama , we were let go with no more supports any more. You know, there was a group called the Student League (Gakusei Domei) for a while. They were kind to us. Everyone (?). There was what was called the Student League, consisting of university students. We should be grateful to their help in such confusing time.

Students took care of repatriates, didn’t they?

Because we didn’t know our ways around, those people ran around and took care of us. For example, they told us the station to get off, which station in which province we should get off, and made sure we got off at the right station (?).

Oh, did they even get on the train with you to take care of you?

They stayed with us for quite a long time, even after we passed Osaka ...

Oh, I see.

Not to Hiroshima , our final destination, but I think they were on the train with us for a long time and probably came as far as around Hiroshima. They were called the Student League. I don’t know about (?) in Japan, but the Student League is one of the things I clearly remember. The kindness of those people in such confusing time was precious. That was an unselfish act. Because it was the time of everybody for themselves, wasn’t it?

Was the train... You said it was a special train, but was the public also allowed to get on...

Just when we got on the train at the station in Kurihama , only until then, it was a special train. We were given empty seats. But once the train left the Kurihama Station, other people could take our seats. Once they did, that was it. The people from the Student League might have come and talked to those people, but I don’t know. I don’t remember if our seats were taken by other people, but such things... We needed to protect ourselves (?). The people from the Student League warned us intentionally in a loud voice, Be careful not to get your stuff stolen. Watch your wallets. There are thieves. They said that loudly for us.

Anyway, after we left Kurihama, one thing that shocked me was ... There were people who were going to buy necessities, waiting at the next station. They threw their rucksacks in from the windows, which were left open because of the heat in the middle of summer. The big rucksack was thrown in from the window where I was sitting like this. And they went over my laps to get in. I was appalled in my child mind. What is happening? The pre-war Japan... was it before I turned grade two? The imperialism was (?), and the elementary school became National Schools (kokumin gakko). I entered a Japanese school and was taught Japanese manners such as how to bow. But because boys were all... male students were soldiers and making bows was femalelike, we were all told to stand straight and to raise our hands to salute as if we were a troop or soldiers (?). One thing I can say is that there was strict discipline. Respecting elderly people and so on. After the war, a special train was prepared for us, but as soon as we left the station, there was no control. People took other people’s seats, and... how should I describe it? I felt really depressed in my child mind. What is going to happen to us in the place like this? Such a situation continued all the way to Kyushu . The chaos. The crowd. The train stopped at each station (?). Everyone time it stopped, more people got on.

So you went back to Kyushu, and did you have your relatives there?

There were lots of relatives there.

Oh, I see.

Because my father’s younger brother right below him has been in the village from pre-war time, we went to his place first. We stayed there for a while, and then our other relative allowed us to use their house...

My father was willing to go back to Japan so didn’t seem have many difficulties to Roy thinks about how to word his sentence ... to adjust.

Oh, I see.

Yes. And after a while... My father went into service for a large landlord when he was a child, 14, 15, or 16 years old, so he was able to do the farm works, such as plowing rice fields, making straw sandals, and so on. He did that at home. Even after he spent decades, 52 years, in Canada, he didn’t forget it.

I see.

Everyone asked him where he learned it because he was away for many years. He never forgot how to do the farm works such as plowing fields. So he didn’t seem to struggle to adjust. But speaking... he was trying to learn to Japanize English words. When somebody visited him, he would say Hello (in English). He also mixed English words when speaking Japanese, such as You are, me-wa, window, door, and so on. He often did that because he had been immersed in the English-speaking life. Even to an elderly country person, he was saying window or door, but the other person didn’t actually understand him. Even though they were replying, Oh, I see, or something like that, (?).

Other than that, he didn’t seem to suffer much to adjust. My brother... One of the reasons why my father was willing to go back to Japan was because my second oldest brother, who my father loved the best, was in Japan. My father had a hope on it. He took us, and four of us went to Japan in 1939, right? And the next year, he returned to Canada and send the second brother to Japan in the same ship...

Ah, yes, that’s right.

The second son was there. He was the son who cared about his parents and whom my father himself took care of and loved the best among his children.

Your father loved him.

He did. The second brother cared about our parents. He was a faithful young man. His name was Shigeru . My father had a hope on the fact that Shigeru, the reliable son who sincerely cared about his parents and who he loved the most, was there.

I see.

That was a big... what do you call it?... a motivation to go back to Japan. The son went to Japan because he told him to do so. He followed his suggestions and went to Japan. So it was a big, if not the only ... or it might have been the only, hope that Shigeru was in Japan.

How old was your brother Shigeru at that time? How many years older than you, Roy?

He was so much older than me. Younger than the oldest brother, though.

Then, was he over twenty?

Of course, he was over twenty. If he was still alive, he would be seventy-... Roy and Tatsuo talk to each other very quickly. um, the brother... The oldest brother is about seventy-eight now. The brother would be also seventy-... Roy thinks about how old his brother would be. He was about seventeen years older than me, so...

Then maybe he was in about his late twenties.

You are right.

Then he was old enough that you could reply on him.

The oldest brother, the second brother, and the oldest sister, who has already passed away. Three of them sacrificed the most among our siblings. You know, there is a place called Gabriola Island. My father was (?) there for a few years.

Oh, did he?

He was (?) there. And that is an isolated island, isn’t it? Because (?), they didn’t go to school. But surprisingly, all three of them were able to speak perfect Japanese. The older sister spoke Japanese so well that many people were surprised. I was also able to speak Japanese relatively well. But about their English,... they weren’t able to go to English school because it was the isolated island. The second brother studied hard and entered the school three or four years behind. He was embarrassed but worked hard and graduated high school here. Then he further (?) while working part time at a sawmill. The electrician school in Chicago was distance education, but he moved to Chicago at the end. (?) electrical school (?). He became not (?) but a technician, but because of the racial discrimination, there was no way to succeed. I wonder where it was. He opened an electrical shop here. And also did repair. Electrical appliances at that time, such as vacuum cleaners, light bulbs, and so on. He was doing that, but probably he wasn’t able to earn enough money to make his living. He closed it after a while.

Oh, I see.

Then, he wasn’t able find a job any more. Even though he had skills, nobody acknowledged them. He wasn’t accepted anywhere. So my father said we should all go to Japan because it was not worth being here. And after he went to Japan, he soon got hired by Yasukawa Electric Corporation. They recognized my brother’s hard work and took a good care of him. But the war started... Anyway, only after we went back to the village, we were told that in the 19th year of Showa,...Is it 1943? ...we were told that the brother...

He died in battle in Burma in September. But my father (?).

Oh... I see. So he didn’t know it until he came back to Japan.

He didn’t. Not until the evening when we went back to the village... Short pause. (that brother?). Just as if being taken to some house (?). If he didn’t have dual citizenship and was just a Japanese national, he might have been still taken after all. Those who had dual citizenship were taken right away. He was in our family registry in the village office, without being removed or changed (?). Japan started the last big operation, called Impal Operation, at that time. The last big one.

Were you ten years old when you went back to Japan?

Twelve.

Twelve years old. Then you went to school again.

I started to go to school from the autumn.

It might have been hard to adjust at school there.

It was. I struggled because I didn’t know Chinese characters. The Japanese Language School in Slocan wasn’t able to have us master reading and writing at all. So it was one big challenge for me to be able to read and write Chinese characters. I entered grade five, but I (?) because (?) was difficult. What I didn’t understand much but is still stuck in my ears was Classic Japanese. There were many Classic Japanese classes. Various expressions of classic Japanese I learned for the first time after I entered high school... Roy recites a section from a song or poem Those things, such as (?) of Hachimantaro Yoshiie, (?) of classic Japanese. I didn’t understand things like (?) at all.

I don’t want to take up your time, so I will quickly ask what I wanted to ask you. After you finished schooling, Roy, did you go to the US Army or Japanese Self-Defense Forces?

I went to school in Japan for eight years. After graduating from high school, ...there was a US military base nearby. That was a (Navy?) base. I went there and (?) for a while there. Because I went to school in Japan for eight years, now my English deteriorated. My English speaking.

You went school in Japan for as long as eight years.

From 1946 Roy thinks about which year he attended school until. to 1954. Elementary, junior-high, and high schools. And now, as for reading and writing in English, ... about reading, because my older sister was working for the Occupational Army, she brought home some magazines. Learning English in Japanese was more difficult. I also had English textbooks from schools in Japan. About listening, there were English broadcast stations, the military broadcast stations. I listened to those. I listened to those radios. About speaking... because I was in countryside, I didn’t have many chances to speak. When I graduated from high school, my speaking English was unnatural.

Oh, was it?

Because I forgot (?). So when I spoke English, it made sense, but I used the wording that were not commonly used. Wording, (?). I somehow managed to maintain the pronunciation, though. Because I was here when I was young, when I was a child, my pronunciation was good. But the phrases I used were weird... while I worked at the US Army base for over three years, I was able to make up for the lack of my knowledge.

What did you do in the US Army base?

In the first six months, I worked for the investigators, or Intelligence Service, of the US Army (?). There was a place like a detective agency. There, they didn’t call each other by their ranks but used mister, and they were all in plain clothes (?). I worked as an interpreter as well as doing many different things for six months there. I did that for six months and then joined the training at the base. The training for the Air Self-Defense Forces started. I was told to (?) there. In around 1955, the Air Self-Defense Forces... I went there and was involved in the training of the Air Self-Defense Forces. It was the training (?), and the training for those other than crew members. For example, mechanics, fuelers, ... those other than pilots. The training for pilots was completely different (?). The ground training. Anyway, I did interpretation and also visited the training sites, which were everywhere in the base, to communicate with them and to discuss how to solve problems when they occurred. Is it called a coordinator? Or monitor? I did that for a while. I did that until 1957 and came back to Vancouver in May 1958. There was a boom of going back to Canada at that time. Roy talks with a bit of amusement. I rode the boom.

Did you want to come back to Canada after all?

I wanted to come back but was worried that I might face discrimination.

And many people said that they had hard time because they didn’t have enough money for travel expenses at that time.

That’s right. I have once asked my brother here, my brother, the second brother Roy corrects himself Oh, the third brother. But he was (?) and wasn’t doing well financially. I asked him like that when I was a student. Also, one time, I was thinking of joining the Canadian Army to come back here although it was not a good idea. But by the time when I graduated from high school, around the time of Korean War, Canadian Nisei there, in Japan, were (coming back) one by one Tatsuo talks over Roy. ...

Yes, I’ve heard that too.

I was still in high school at that time. After I graduated, there was a mission, or an office, of the Canadian Army in Tokyo, so I wrote a letter to them, telling them that I would like to join them. Then they gave me a reply, We appreciate your enthusiasm very much, but the current (policy?) doesn’t allow anybody in Japan to join us, and we don’t accept any more applications, so you need to go back to Canada first. You will be welcome any time. Roy laughs.

So, during the Korean War, they recruited...

That (?), or when (?). They wanted as many soldiers as possible. Because they especially prefer those who knew about East Asia, those people were all welcome. So there were Nisei who joined the Canadian Army from Japan.

It looks like there were.

But in my case, by the time when I graduated from high school, the Korean Was had already ended. I had great enthusiasm, though. Too bad. Both Roy and Tatsuo laughs. Or it might have been right before I graduated from high school. I don’t remember exactly. Anyway, because I worked for the US Army, I earned more than Japanese university graduates. At the Occupational Army. I worked there, ate there, and (?) some pocket money the Ministry of Foreign Affairs allowed us, for emergency. It was less than 200 dollars but was so-called an expense.

There was (?) to exchange those.

At that time, about you coming back to Canada, did you father...

He had already retired. When he came here, he was eighty-two.

Oh, he had already been that age. Tatsuo sounds a bit surprised. Then at that time, were your brothers and sisters in Canada?

Two brothers. At that time, both of them were in Montreal, but the oldest brother moved to Toronto in 1968. At that time, both of them were in Montreal . Then a year before I did, my older sister who is in Richmond now came back to Vancouver . She wrote to me and let me know a lot of information. So she came here in the spring of 1957, and I came here in the spring of 1958, a year later. Anyway, to Canada, ...how should I say it? Anyway, Simon, my boss when I was working for the Army, invited me to go to the US together once (?) (the same?) Army. (?) Let’s me join you. Because I have bad experience in Canada, I thought I didn’t have to go back to Canada. So I asked him to let me join him. I thought I should get the US citizenship. So I told him Please. When he had a chance to visit the US embassy in Tokyo , he also asked about it for me. Then they said that they made decisions not based on our citizenship but on donations. Even though I had Canadian citizenship, because I was the yellow race, (?). There was a special category, and almost thirty thousand young Japanese had applied for the immigration to the US at the US embassy. So I asked them to add me on the list. Then I save money.

Um, was that... Your Canadian citizenship... The government said that those who were repatriated from Canada to Japan lost their Canadian citizenship at that time. That...

That was another trend. During my high school trip in the spring of 1952, I dropped by the Canadian embassy. And I wrote it. Then (?) certificate. I got that thing, that was dark red on the front and dark green on the back. It was a trend at that time. Everyone (?).

Oh, I see. But you of course had your Canadian birth certificate...

I did. The birth certificate. I brought it and signed, I think. They said (?), and I was given back my citizenship. Around 1958, there was still a lot of racial discrimination, wasn’t there? There were two big cases of racial discrimination. One was about a Chinese couple who were teachers. They were teachers, and when they tried to rent an apartment, they were rejected because of their race. There was human rights or something, protecting human rights, at that time. The couple reported to them, it became a front-page story on the newspaper. Another case was about a Sikh or somebody who tried to buy a house in the Caucasian neighbourhood. Those in the neighbourhood fiercely opposed, and that too became a front-page story. Similarly, when I asked somebody to refer me to a job, ... I asked a Caucasian lawyer, then the lawyer said that unclear phrase because the limit of number of yellow race they hired was just this, there was unfortunately no chance. He firmly said so. Pause.

In a quiet voice. I see.

Thinking back about that time, it feels like we are in the heaven now.

Well, thank you for talking about many things. I interviewed many people, but you remember very well, Roy. Tatsuo laughs after Roy says something to him quietly. Oh, no. There were many things I had never heard about before.

Thank you very much.

You are welcome.

Let’s call it a day for now today. I might... unstable audio after I go back, I might come back to interview you for more details, or for adjustments.

Well, if my boring story helps you...

Oh, no, it was interesting. And this tape... I don’t think I will be able to finish it soon, but I’m thinking of eventually offering it to the historical broadcasting committee...

Is there anything I have to sign?

Well, this is about the use. It would be great if you could sign with conditions, for example, not releasing to the public, and so on. What would you like to do with it? Are there any restrictions Sound of shuffling items around you would like to add?

Um, I don’t have anything special.

Then, for the future, would it be okay to make it open to the public?

Sure. There is nothing confidential.

Thank you very much. END OF SIDE 2