Roy Umeo Uyeda, interviewed by Tatsuo Kage, 15 February 1991

Roy Umeo Uyeda, interviewed by Tatsuo Kage, 15 February 1991

Abstract
Roy Uyeda describes his life in Slocan after being forcibly removed from his family home in Vancouver . He says he experienced discrimination at school for being Japanese but did not have to worry about being discriminated against in Slocan because there were only Japanese people around. He describes the different size and location of the different internment camps in and around the Slocan Valley . Roy explains to Tatsuo how people had to get permits to visit other camps in the surrounding areas. He also describes the logging camps the adults worked in and how school teachers initially consisted of recent highschool graduates. Unlike kids, adults were not allowed to fish. Roy says therefore, adults would secretly fish in a valley farther away and come back after dark with backpacks full of trout. Side 2: Roy describes to Tatsuo that aboard the ship to Japan in 1946 were Japanese Peruvians who were also being exiled to Japan . He recalls how they communicated with partial Japanese as he didn’t know any Spanish and they didn’t know any English. Upon arriving in Japan he describes how support groups organized by university students were extremely helpful in helping them find how to get to their final destination in Japan from Kurihama . Not only did they board the train with them to a prefecture close to their final destination, they also gave advice such as be aware of pickpockets on the train. His family learnt the second oldest brother died during the war only after reaching their father’s parents home. Roy describes how he had difficulties adjusting to the school in Japan.
This oral history is from the Nikkei National Museum and Cultural Centre's Kage Collection. Accession No. 2021-7-1-1-3. It describes the experience of exile.
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Tatsuo Kage (TK)
じゃあもう一世に近いですね。
Then, you are almost Issei.
Umeo Uyeda (UU)
Old二世に似てるんですよ。
I’m like old Nisei.
TK
すると、お兄さんが二人...
And you have two older brothers...
UU
姉が三人ですね。
And three older sisters.
TK
後ですね、ロイさんね、生まれたのはバンクーバーですか?それとも...
And, were you born in Vancouver , Roy or...?
UU
ええ。兄弟ですか?
Yes, or you mean my siblings?
TK
いやいや。
No, no.
UU
私はバンクーバーのBlenheimっていう通りがあそこ...
I was born ... there is a street names Blenheim there...
TK
ウェストサイドにあります。
In the West Side.
UU
ウェストサイドにBoulevardからちょっと...
It was a little off Boulevard toward the West Side.
TK
Dunbarの方に?
In the direction of Dunbar?
UU
DunbarにBoulevardからちょっと二、三ストリート行った所にBlenheimって。Point Greyにゴルフ場がありますよね。あれをずっと南行くとフレーザーな川岸に ship yardっていうのが残ってますよね。
There is a street called Blenheim two, three streets off the Boulevard in the direction of Dunbar. You know, there is a golf course in Point Grey . Going down to the south from there, the place called shipyard is still there on the shore of the Fraser River , isn’t it?
TK
ああ、そうですね。
Ah, yes.
UU
今Musqueam Indian Bandが独立して漁船なんか作ってますよ。あそこが、いわゆる、Canada Packers。BC Packers? 何て言うの?あそこの所有地、 皆あそこで、日本人の家族が25個位あったんですよ。その時はsalted canneryって言ってましたけど私が生まれた頃はもう缶詰工場はなかったんですよ。 ただ漁船を作る工場があって。後は日本人の漁師が(?)。それで魚を皆BC Packersに納めていました。だから家は皆、日本で言えば社宅ですよね。 店が所有した家に皆住んでたんですよ。
Now the Musqueam Indian Band lives in the reserve there, making fishing boats and so on. That place was so-called Canada Packers. Or BC Packers? What do you call it? That place... everyone was there... there were about twenty-five Japanese families. At that time, we called the place Salted Cannery, but when I was born, the cannery was already gone. There was just a factory to build fishing boats, and the rest are Japanese fishermen’s (houses?). And everyone took fish to the BC Packers. So the houses were all what we call in Japan shataku (company housing). We all lived in the houses owned by the store.
TK
えっと、それでそのBlenheimって所で学校はいつぐらいまで行きましたか?
Um, and until when did you go to school there, on Blenheim?
UU
えっと、私5歳の時にここのバンクーバーの学校に入学する9月でしょうかね?9月初めでしょう。その時に、1939年ですね。その時に親父とお袋と今リッチモンドに 住んでる私のすぐ上の姉と四人で日本に行ったんですよ。1939年。お袋がね、階段から落ちて転んで肩骨を折って、とにかくここを打撲なんかして。それで温泉に (?)しに行ったら良いだろうという事で。で、親父も三十何年こっちにいて日本に帰ってないから里帰り、お袋も里帰り、親父も里帰りってあれこれ流行って 子供を日本の学校に入れるって。我々の事を学校に入れるという事で。それで一番下の二人を連れて帰ったと。
Um, when I was five, ... maybe when I was about to enter the elementary school in Vancouver in September. I think it was the beginning of September. In 1939. My father, my mother, my sister right above me, who now lives in Richmond , and I—four of us went to Japan. In 1939. My mother fell from the stairs and broke her shoulder bone. Anyway, she got bruise here. So we thought it would be nice to take her to a hot spring (to heal her injury?) Also, because my father had been here for thirty-odd years and had never gone back to Japan, they thought it would be nice to go home. Homecoming for my father and mother. They wanted to have their children go to school in Japan. To have us go to school there, they took the two younger children with them.
TK
ああ、そうですか。じゃあロイさんは本当に小さい時はカナダの学校には...
Oh, I see. Then when you were little, you didn’t go to school in Canada ...
UU
日本で初めて学校に行ったんですよ。日本でだから’39年の9月に行って、その翌年の、1940年の、昭和15年の四月に日本の小学校に、地元の小学校に入学したわけですよ。
My first school was in Japan. Because (the school year is different) in Japan, we went there in September 1939, and I entered the Japanese elementary school, a local elementary school, in April the next year, in 1940, the 15th year of Showa.
TK
それで戦争になる前にまたカナダに戻って来たのですか?
And you came back to Canada before the war started?
UU
ええ。それでその翌年の’41年、2年になってから...二年生になって間も無くして、6月ですよ。6月にまたバンクーバーに戻って。その時お袋は日本で死んでいました。 親父は六ヶ月位でもうこっちに帰って来たんですよ。
Yes. The next year, in 1941, after I turned grade 2... as soon as I turned grade 2, in June. I came back to Vancouver in June. My mother had already passed away in Japan at that time. My father had already come back here in six months or so.
TK
じゃあお母さんはその時にやっぱり具合が悪くて。
Then, you mother had already been sick at that time...
UU
(?)。親父こっちに来て。親父がちょっとまあ話を進め過ぎたから...親父が六ヵ月位してからバンクーバーに戻って。その船が日本に折り返す時に次男坊は 日本にやって来たというわけですよ。
(?) My father came here. Because he was too hasty to decide everything... he came back to Vancouver about six months after we went to Japan. When the ship returned to Japan, my second oldest brother came to Japan.
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UU
親父が日本に行けと。(?)とか何台かありましたけども。親父がバンクーバーに戻って来た船で折り返しの時に次男坊が親父の進めで日本に。
My father told him to go to Japan. There were several ships, such as (?), and so on at that time. When the ship my father was on back to Vancouver returned to Japan, the second brother came to Japan on my father’s suggestion.
TK
ああ、そうですか。それが’40年の...
Oh, I see. And that was in 1940...
UU
’40年の夏ですね。
It was in summer of 1940.
TK
1940年に父は... Long pause as Tatsuo possibly takes notes. それで日本にいらしたのは九州だったんですか?
In 1940, your father... Long pause as Tatsuo possibly takes notes. And you went to Kyushu in Japan?
UU
福岡です。福岡の大分よりの所です。博多の反対側です。東の。
To Fukuoka . The area close to Oita. The other side from Hakata. In the east side.
TK
それで6月にまたこっちに戻ってらして。
So you came back here in June.
UU
’41年の6月。
In June 1941.
TK
それでその時は何処に住まれて?
Where did you live at that time?
UU
元の所に戻ったですね。そのCelticっていう、C-E-L-T-I-C Cannery。それでその年の9月、’41年の9月にあそこに、41とCarnarvonっていう通りの所に Kerrisdale Schoolっていうのがあります。小学校。そこに入学したんです。だけど英語が出来ないから二年遅れて。 Long pause.
We went back to the same place. It was called Celtic... C-E-L-T-I-C Cannery. Then in September that year, September 1941, ...there is a school called Kerrisdale School at 41st and Carnarvon. An elementary school. I entered that school. But because I couldn’t speak English, I was two years behind. Long pause.
TK
その、カナダへ行くまではどうだったんですか?英語と日本語話すっていうのは...?
So, how was it before you went to Canada? Your speaking in English and Japanese?
UU
簡単な、papa、mama、hello、thank you、yes、no、そんな簡単あれはだったけど会話は、英語の会話は出来なかったですね。
Easy words, such as papa, mama, hello, thank you, yes, no, ... those were easy, but conversation was... I wasn’t able to have English conversation.
TK
ああ、そうですか。
So, how was it before you went to Canada? Your speaking in English and Japanese?
UU
家庭では、親が日本の古い人でその(?)では日本人が集団でおったもんで。直、日本語がやっぱ強かったですね。その、周囲が白人に囲まれておれば当然の、 それも自然に日本語以外の言葉を話す子供と遊ぶようになれたら英語すぐ覚えるでしょう。私の場合はそういう日本人の集団のとこで親が日本語なもんですから しゃべるのは英語は出来なかった。そういう簡単な言葉だけは皆使うから。だからこっちに’41年に、6月に戻って来て9月にKerrisdaleっていう小学校に入学する時は (?)でアルファベットやら(?)なんかを兄貴が...その、長男も次男坊が帰ってからどのくらい経ってからかな?長男も帰って来たですよ、日本に、やって来たんですよ。 今トロントにおる長男。それで間も無くしてお袋が病気になりまして。で、何ヵ月かで亡くなって。で、兄貴が我々を、二人を、連れ回したんですよ。お袋が亡くなって なかったらあるいは日本におったかも。その点はよく知らないですけど。
At home, my parents were from old time Japan, and in (?), there are Japanese in a group, so we mostly spoke Japanese. If I had been surrounded by Caucasians and had had chances to play with children who spoke the language other than Japanese, I would’ve naturally learned English quickly. But in my case, because I grew up among such a group of Japanese and my parents spoke Japanese, I wasn’t able to speak English. I understood only those easy words because everyone at least used those easy words. So when I came back here in June 1941 and entered the elementary school called Kerrisdale in September, my older brother (?) alphabets and so on (?). That oldest brother also came back, ...came to Japan. I wonder how long after my second brother came back it was. My oldest brother, who is in Toronto now. Soon after he came back, my mother got sick and passed away in a few months. Then the oldest brother took two of us around. If my mother hadn’t passed away, I might have stayed in Japan. I’m not sure though.
TK
そうですか...小学生... Short pause. その頃はこっちに戻ってらしてそのKerrisdaleの学校へ入った時期っていうのは日本語学校はどうだったのですか?
I see... an elementary student... Short pause. When you came back here and entered the elementary school in Kerrisdale, what did you do with a Japanese Language School?
UU
ああ、日本語学校はそのCelticでやってましたよ。
Oh, there was a Japanese Language School in that Celtic.
TK
ああ、そうですか。
Oh, I see.
UU
うん。まあ、ここで、Alexanderでもやってたみたいに日本人のあちこちで、今スティーブストンとか色々やってるでしょ。ああいう風にあちこちでやってたみたいで。 我々の時もやってましたけどね。だけど、まあ、子供は行ってワーワー騒いでおやつ食べてあまり身に付かなかったね。
Yes. Well, just like the one on Alexander here, ...like those in Steveston that are doing various things now, many different Japanese communities seem to have had their Japanese Language Schools. We had one too. Kids just made noises, had snacks, and so on, so we didn’t learn much, though.
TK
そうですか。とにかく昔は物凄く沢山あったみたいですね。
I see. It seems that there were so many of them before.
UU
ええ。
Yes.
TK
30とか40とかそれくらいの単位で日本語学校があったみたいです。
I heard that there were as many as thirty or forty Japanese Language Schools.
UU
私達の、Celticの村にもシマ先生っていう、その先生ご一家が我々が’39年、’40年に行く時同じ船で帰ってはって。
In our Celtic village, there was a teacher named Shima. The teacher and his/her family were on the same ship when we went to Japan in 1939, 1940.
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UU
三重県の人なんですけど。シマ先生って昔のちゃんとした先生、れっきとした先生。この近年、80年代になってこっちの人達でその先生を招いたみたいですよ。 Reunionみたいなのがあったらしいですよ。トロントにその先生が(?)。
They were from Mie. Mr./Ms. Shima was an old-school teacher, a formally-trained teacher. I heard that people here invited him/her recently, in the 80’s. They said there was something like a reunion. The teacher (?) to Toronto .
TK
そうですか。
I see.
UU
その先生が帰られてからそうなったかについてはちょっとそれは覚えてないですけど。誰かいましたね。日本語学校はやってました。
I don’t remember what happened after the teacher came back, though. There was at least somebody. We at least had a Japanese Language School.
TK
そうするとそれで戦争の起こった時はロイさんはいくつに?
Then, when the war started, how old were you, Roy?
UU
八つになったばっかり。八つになってから一ヵ月。 Pause.
I just turned eight years old. A month after I turned eight. Pause.
TK
戦争が起こった頃のPearl Harbourの事なんか覚えてますか?
Do you remember things like Pearl Harbour and on at the time when the war started?
UU
覚えてますね。学校、随分学校あんな、小学校一年ですよね。だけど、いづらかったよね。私が過敏になってたかそれは知らないですけど、勿論上級生が沢山いましたね。 上級生の態度があまり良くないですけど私と同じ一年生の子供が「He's a Jap」とかね言うから。親が色々話すんでしょうね。だから知らんうちに子供に知恵が付くんでしょうね。 そういう差別待遇的な、(?)するような、そういう思想っていうか。例えば「Jap」なんかと呼ばれるとですね、随分といづらかったですね。で、戦争が、もうヨーロッパでは ナチス政権が、ヒトラーがポーランドを攻略したりして嫌悪になって来たですね。それでカナダは(?)の一員としてそれに加担しておったし。今度は真珠湾がああいう風になったら 尚更結構拍車をかけてwar effortっていうんですか。それで赤十字が(?)をゴムとか金屑とかね、そういうのを学校に持って来させるわけですよ。沢山。 Roy mumbles something. それで山ほど学校に屑を持って来させるわけですよ。ゴムとか金屑とかね。そういう事は定期的に赤十字とかが、皆女性ですけどね。男は戦争に行っていないですから。その、制服を着た女性が (?)それを定期的に集めて。 Roy mumbles something. それで子供のワゴンがありますよね。こういう4つ輪が...それを誰かが寄付しておったのを皆子供が動くからそれを、遊ぶわけです。運動場に坂があるからそこの坂に行って。そうするうちに崩れた わけですよ。で、前のここだけが外れてたから私が、その寄付したってそんな事知らないのでこれを持って帰って作って。持って帰ったんですよね。そしたらその係の先生が(?)みたいに授業中に やって来ましてその先生に、私もそんなに英語完全には分からないけど、言うてる事。Youのクラスに(?)から来た男の子いるだろう。Japaneseと言うたかどうか。男の子おるだろうと、 ちょっと話さしてと。それで呼び出されましてね。僕は部屋に連れて行かれまして。刑事がその、(権利者?)泥を吐かせるっていう、「お前何日頃盗っただろう?」なんかそんな事を(?) めされました。それでそのくらいになると分かってきて Roy talks with a laugh. 私嘘を言うとったんだけど (?)だから今度持って来るわ言って持って来て、それでよかった。
I do. School, ...at school, ...I was grade one. I was very uncomfortable. I don’t know if I was too sensitive, but, of course, there were many older children. Their behaviour was not very good, and the grade-one children, same as me, said something like He’s a Jap. I think parents talked about various things and children learned those without parents noticing it. Those racial thought (?). When I was called jap, for example, I was very uncomfortable. Then the war... In Europe, Nazi Germany, Hitler invaded Poland, and hatred increased. Also because Canada joined as a member of (?). And once the Pearl Harbour got attached like that, things went even worse. What do you call it... war effort? And the Red Cross (?) made us bring rubber, scrap metal, and so on to school. Lots of them. Roy mumbles something. They had us bring lots of scrap like that to school. Rubber, scrap metal, and so on. Those kinds of things were done regularly by the groups such as the Red Cross , all women, because men were all gone for the war. Women in uniforms came to collect those things regularly. Roy mumbles something. You know there is a wagon for children. The one with these four wheels. There was one donated by somebody, and because it moved, children all played with it. There was a slope in our playground, so we took it there. While we played, it got broken. A piece in front of it came off, so I took it home to make a replacement piece because I didn’t know it was donated. I took it home. Then a teacher in charge came like (?) during our class. Although I didn’t fully understand his English, what the teacher was saying was, There must be a boy from (?). I don’t know if the teacher said Japanese. There must be the boy. Let me talk to him. So I was summoned and taken to a different room. Just like a detective making a suspect to confess, I was (?) You stole this on this date, didn’t you? By that time, I gradually understood what was going on Roy talks with a laugh. I was lying at first, but (?) so I said that I would bring it back next time. Once I brought it back, that was it.
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UU
今思えば罪人扱いみたいな気がしたんですよ。
Thinking back, I felt like I was being treated like a criminal.
TK
それで後ですね、小学校入って、移動の時期ですよね。 ロイさんの場合は勿論バンクーバーに住んでいたから住んでいる所から移動先に行ったわけですよね。
And then, after you entered the elementary school, at the time when you were relocated. In your case, Roy, because you lived in Vancouver , you of course went from where you lived straight to the destination, didn’t you?
UU
(?)かな。
To (?).
TK
そうですね。
That’s right.
UU
私達もCeltic村で他の家族は、3月、4月頃になるとどんどん出ていきましたね。で、うちだけが残ったんです。私が知っておる限りでは、親父が頑固者でね。 なんだかんだ言って突っぱねてずっとおったんですけどね。 A child is screaming in the background. 5月に入ってからかやっぱりそういう 日本人の移動ちゅうか、とにかく敵国人を取り締まる役所か何かから書かれて来ましてね。来たのは覚えてます。だからあんた達はやっぱり出て行かないかん っていう事になったんでしょう。それで親父もそうなったら仕方ないって。それまで兄貴、私の、長男と三男坊だから3月頃からか4月頃からSlocanにいたんです。 先遣隊みたいなので。あそこで皆、本当の大工が何人かおるでしょう。それがにわか仕込みでにわか大工を養成しまして。全員分のハンマーとか(?)とか 道具持たしてそしてその、いわゆる、家族なんかをそこに立ち退きしてからそこに集団生活をさせる為に(?)写真なんか見ます。あんなバラック建てる為に 先遣部隊なものを出したわけです。それでうちの兄貴がその独身者、そういう若い人とか。兄貴は3月頃には行ったんでしょうね。で、とにかく家には子供やら 女だけ残って。親父はちょっと歳いってましたから。それ...だけどいつまでもそこにおる訳にもいかんっていう事になってHastings Parkに。
Other families in the Celtic village all moved out one by one by around March or April. Only our family was left behind. As far as I know, because my father was stubborn, he refused to move out by giving various reasons. A child is screaming in the background. But in May, a letter came from the office controlling enemy aliens or something. I remember the letter came. So I think they decided that we must move out despite those reasons. Then my father thought we had no choice. By that time, my older brother... he is the oldest brother, and I am the third one, ...he had been in Slocan since around March or April. Just like an advance party. There were a few real carpenters there, weren’t there? They trained people to be makeshift carpenters. They provided everyone with tools, such as hammers, (?), and so on to have the uprooted families live there together. You see in the pictures. To build barracks like those, people like an advance party were sent there. My brother was single, so those young people were sent. I think my brother went there by around March. Anyway, only children and women were left behind at home. My father was a bit old, so... But we couldn’t stay there anymore, so we moved to the Hastings Park .
TK
ああ、そうなんですか。
Oh, you did.
UU
うん。だけどHastings Parkは親父、多分聞いた事無いですけど、3、4週間じゃないですかね。まあ、入ったの遅くて、で、出たの早かったんです。 6月にはもう出ました。Hastings Parkに入れられまして。 Roy and Tatsuo quietly talk to each other. There are also clattering cups or plates in the background. で、Hastings Parkで何週間かおって、Slocanにそれから六月の何日頃、それは覚えてないですけど。六月のやっぱり半ば前に。で、ちょっと、その、 列車づたてで国家警察を一人か二人か付けて。二日くらいかかったですね。トコトコトコトコいって。その頃にわか仕込みの大工達が一生懸命藪を切り開いて。 少々な木ならブルドーザーでダァーっと(?)。
Yes. But, although I have never asked my father about it, I think we were in the Hastings Park only for three or four weeks. We went there late and left there early. We already moved out by June. So we were sent to the Hastings Park . Roy and Tatsuo quietly talk to each other. There are also clattering cups or plates in the background. And after being in the Hastings Park for a few weeks, we went to Slocan in June. I don’t remember the date, though. A little before mid-June. One or two officers from RCMP escorted us on the train. It took about two days. Slowly, slowly by train. By that time, the makeshift carpenters worked hard and cut open the bush. They also used bulldozers to cut little trees all at once (?).
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UU
直接ブルドーザーでダァーっとやって木を倒して行ったっていう風な事をやって A child is saying something out loud in the background. まあ、ずっとたってたわけですよ。それまではSlocan Cityのちょっと外れにリンクあるから。古い スケート場がありまして。で、その前の広場がちょっと、 そこにカナダ軍隊用のテントが、軍隊用のテントが、丸いテント。それを沢山立てて。床は板張りにして。そしてそこに家族と。で、リンクの、スケート場内にも bunk bedっていうんですか、重ねるベッドをこう。で、僕らは入って所帯別にして。リンクの中に。そこに6月に行って9月頃から家に...くじで与えられたのか どういう風な仕組みかちょっと覚えてないですけど色々家が与えられたわけですよ。人数とかそういうのによってね。で、そこに与えられた。それまではそのリンクで 食堂があって、そこでご飯食べてたんですよ。で、とにかくはっきり、子供心にはっきり覚えている事はそのHastings Parkに何週間かおったでしょ。 で、Slocanに行ったらね、食事が全然もう(?)断然違うんですよ。
They did works like cutting down trees directly with a bulldozer. A child is saying something out loud in the background. So (?) was there. There was a link on the outskirt of Slocan City . There was an old skate link. And in the open space in front of it, they put tents, that were originally for the Canadian Army, round military tents. They put lots of them and made wooden floors. Families lived there. They also put... what do you call it? ...bunk beds, the beds stuck like this, in the skate link. We moved in there by family. In the link. We went there in June, and from around September, ...I don’t remember if it was decided by drawing lots or how it was decided, but we were given houses. Based on the numbers of family members, and so on, houses were given. Until that time, we had meals in the dining room set up in the link. What I clearly remember in my child’s mind is..., you know, I was in the Hastings Park for a few weeks. And once I came to Slocan, the food we ate was completely different.
TK
良くなったんですか?
Was it better?
UU
(?)。あそこ日本人が皆(?)。どういうのか知らないですけどとにかく良いんですよ。食事が全然もう、Hastings Parkは粗末なんですよ。 Hastings Parkの食事は(?)みたいでミルクとかね。ミルクなんかこんな飲み放題だったし、バターはこんな小さいのをトーストなんかに。なんかとにかく 美味しくなかったね。魚をなんか黄色いこのスモーク、燻製かなんかの端っこかなんかを、美味しくないのを...よく出ましたね。あれは美味しくなかった。 Slocan行ったら日本人のコックが「うまいでしょ。ここの食事うまいでしょ。」って言って、向こうの方がご馳走だもの。大きな違いだったんですよ。 同じ、まあ、洋食ばっかりじゃあないですけど。Riceも出ましたけど。
(?) All the Japanese there (?). I don’t know why, but anyhow it was better. It was completely different. The food in the Hastings Park was really inferior. The meals in the Hastings Park were like (?). And milk too. (We could drink milk as much as we wanted?) The butter for toasts were this tiny. Everything was not delicious. Fish also... this little piece of yellow smoked fish, not delicious at all, was often served. That didn’t taste good. Once we went to Slocan , Japanese cooks there would say, Isn’t it good? The meals here are good, aren’t they? because meals there were much better. There was a big difference. Not always western meals, though. They served rice too.
TK
あの、スローカンでは学校っていうのはどうだったんですか?
Um, how was the school in Slocan?
UU
学校は’43年の春からですよね。それまでににわか仕込みの大工達がただただ(?)。親父がSlocanに、親達は酷い目にあってますよね。今まで何十年も 築き上げた財産とういうか事業なんか根こそぎにやられて。そうい事は私は子供だったからよく分からないけど、子供心ながら言える事はSlocanに行ったら (?)がスゥっとしましたね。ここは空気が嫌悪でなんか物苦しくて。私のCelticのバラックでもうちの家が一番最後まで残ったんですよ。そしたらある 何週間かの間に、よく覚えてないですけど、そのKerrsidaleっていう小学校で私の姉と私だけが、たった二人の日本人の子供がクラスにおったんですよ。 もう我々だけが残ったんですよ。後は東洋人って言ったらチャイニーズの子供が。で、チャイニーズは日本人と一緒にされるの嫌だから彼らはself preservationの (?)からなるべく関わらないように...差別...そしたら自分らチャイニーズだ!っと。あいつらはジャップっだてこう(?)孤立しましたよね。だから私なんかもう 肩身狭くて。昼に弁当食べる時なると男の子は男の子だけで特別な大きな教室に集まってそこでご飯食べてた。
The school started in spring of 1943. Until then, the makeshift carpenters were just (?). Once my father came to Slocan... you know, parents went through terrible experience. The fortune and businesses they spent decades to build were all taken away. Because I was a child, I didn’t understand it well, but one thing I felt as a child was that, once I went to Slocan, I felt like my mind (?) was relieved and refleshed. Here, the atmosphere was full of hatred, and I felt stifling. In Celtic, we were the last family who stayed in the barrack. Then for a few weeks, ...I don’t remember very clearly, though, ... my sister and I were the two only Japanese students in the class of the Kerrisdale Elementary School. Only two of us were left behind. Other than us, the only Asians were Chinese students. And because Chinese didn’t want to be mistaken for Japanese, they tried to stay away for self-preservation (?)... discrimination... Then they proclaimed, We are Chinese! They are Japs. (?) We were isolated. I felt small and uncomfortable. When we ate lunch, boys gathered in a big classroom and ate together.
00:25:07.000
00:25:07.000
UU
Lunch timeの時。女の子は女の子で。私の所は誰も一緒に座ってくれない。物凄く(悲しかった?)。とにかく授業中でも随分(?)。それでSlocanに行ってから 皆同胞だしね、差別される事ない。皆同じ民族だから。それで本当に気がスゥっとしましたね。
In lunch time. Girls gathered themselves too. Nobody sat with me. I was very (sad?). Even during the classes, (?). Once I went to Slocan , because everyone was fellow Japanese, I was no longer discriminated. Because we are all the same ethnicity. That really made me feel relieved and relaxed.
TK
あの、スローカンはじゃあもう随分沢山うたでしょうね。
Um, there must be many (people?) in Slocan.
UU
うん。Slocanどれくらいおったんかな。何千...
Yes. I wonder how many people were in Slocan. Thousands...
TK
...っていう単位でいたわけですか。
As many as that?
UU
うん。そのSlocan Valleyを、Slocan Cityがあったでしょ。で、Slocan CityはいわゆるGhost Townでね。昔は、1890年代の初め頃からは写真 なんかを見るとなんか最盛期は外部から色々一攫千金狙ってっていうか、あそこは銀山。(?)とかだったら金山。あそこは銀山、silver mining。 その跡も残ってまして。Silver mining。それがあった頃は沢山集まったと。2万5千くらい。いわゆるそのprospectorから銀塊を掘りあかす連中から アメリカの西部劇によくある(?)とかあんな(?)。で、このswinging doorってこんな真ん中だけ開いていて、西部劇で(?)がダァッと入って行くような (?)ある、あんなんですよ。そういう軒並みはあったんです。ホテルとかね、木造の三階建てとか四階建て。それを改造して。だから一つの建物に家族がいくつか...
Yes. That Slocan Valley ... Slocan City was there. And Slocan City was so-called a Ghost Town. In old days, from the beginning of 1890’s and at its peak, if you look at pictures, (people gathered) from outside, dreaming of making a fortune. That was a silver mine. (?) was a gold mine, but that was a sliver mine. The former mining site was still there. Silver mining. When the mining was going on, many people were there. About twenty-five thousand people. From the so-called prospector to those who came to dig out all the silver bullions and to (?) you often see in the American western movies. You know this swinging door, in the western movies, that open from the middle like this and that people rush in through. The city was like that. Those buildings were there. Hotels and wooden three-story or four-story buildings. They renovated those. So several families were in one building...
TK
ああ、まだそういうのが、実際に使えるような建物があったんですね。
Oh, so there were still buildings left in the usable conditions.
UU
あったね。うん。なんとか改造すればね。修正加えれば結構使える物があったんですよ。空き家っていうかもう廃家になっておったのを修復したりしてね。 だからSlocan Cityにどのくらいおったんですか、それからちょっと川下のSlocan Riverの場所に行ったら農場があって。その農場に隣接した...農場の 所小学校になって。運動場と小学校。そのすぐ隣が平たい森だったんですよ。その森をブルドーザーで木を倒して道を作って。で、この縦横碁盤の目のように作って。 Public bathを二か所において。で、その、ずっとhighwayに面した所をA-lineというふうなって。それからhighwayが結局南北になるのかな?どうなんでしょう。 それはちょっと忘れたけど、それに直角にこのavenue、1st Avenue、2nd Avenueをずっと(?)。そこに何千人か住んでるんですよ。2,3千はおったでしょうね。 それがSlocan Cityから... Roy tries to remember the distance from Slocan City. 2マイルくらいあったかね?2,3マイルですよね。 更に今度はそこがBay Farmっていうんですよ。その、農場があったからそれでBay Farmって言って。それが更に2マイルか川下に行った所に牧場...牛をこう... 牧場があってそこにウクライナ系か(?)でPopoffっていう農場を持った人がおったんですよ。その人の名前を取ったんですよ。Popoffっていう所、場所があって。 そこにもまた同じような、あそこは数は、戸数はBay Farmより大分少ない。Bay Farmの半分位じゃないですかね。そこにまた1000人かなんかをおいて。 で、更にまたそれから川下に行ったらLemon Creekっていう所に。
There were. Yes. Usable if renovated. There were many things we could use as far as we fixed them. We fixed empty houses, or the abandoned houses. So, how many people were there in Slocan City? Going down the Slocan River, there was a farm. And next to the farm, there was an elementary school. A school ground and an elementary school. Right next to them was a flat forest. They cut down the forest with bulldozers and made streets like a grid. They built two public baths. Then along the highway was A-line. And was the highway running from south to north? I’m not sure. I forgot that, but at right angles to it, there were avenues... 1st avenue, 2nd avenue, and all (?). A few thousand people lived there. I think there were at least two or three thousand people. And from Slocan City, ... Roy tries to remember the distance from Slocan City. was it about two miles? I think two, three miles from there. Now that place was called Bay Farm . Because there were farms, we called the place Bay Farm. And about two miles further down the river from there, there were farms of cows. There was a Ukrainians or (?), named Popoff, who had a farm there. They took that person’s name. So there was a place called Popoff , similar to Bay Farm but with much fewer houses. Probably half of Bay Farm. There were about a thousand people there too. And further down the river was Lemon Creek .
00:30:00.000
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UU
Lemon CreekはBay Farmよりもっと大きかったですね。
Lemon Creek was much bigger than Bay Farm.
TK
ああ、そうですか。
Oh, I see.
UU
ずっと(?)。それがSlocan Valleyっていう。だから’42年頃に移動させられた時Slocan Valleyに一番ようけおったんです。で、SlocanとかSandon とかRoseberryとかNew Denverとかね。そのうちSandonとかいう所を閉鎖してSlocan Valley、Bay Farmとかそっちの方に吸収されまして。
Much (?). That’s Slocan Valley. So when we were relocated in around 1942, Slocan Valley had the most people. In Slocan , Sandon , Rosebery , New Denver , and so on. Eventually the place called Sandon was closed and combined with Slocan Valley , Bay Farm , and the places in that area.
TK
そういう他の近所の収容所のあった所ってのはわりに行き来は自由だったんですか?
Were you allowed to come and go freely among those nearby internment camps?
UU
いや、やっぱりパーメット をもって国家警察に脱出願、許可書、パーメットいったと思いますよ。
No. We needed a permit. I think we needed to get a permit from the RCMP to go out.
TK
ああ、そうですか。
Oh, I see.
UU
親父の(?)ものでね、うちに四年間おった人が おるんですけどその人に連れられてNelsonに行ったのね。Nelsonね。Nelsonは(都?)ですよね。だから日本人Nelsonに 行くのはちゃんと国家警察に届け出て、許可してもらって。で、Lemon Creekのちょっと川下にPerry Sidingっていう所ありますよね。そこにバス止まって、 国家警察が、警官が入って行って日本人の身分証明書、許可書を...子供はいいんですけど。パーメット、調べますよ。だからNew Denverとかそっちの方の大人は New Denverでもいったんじゃないかな。そのところ確かには覚えてないですけどね。
My father’s (?)... there was somebody who stayed with us for four years, and the person took me to Nelson . Nelson. Nelson is (a big city?), isn’t it? So for Japanese to go to Nelson, we needed to report to the RCMP and get a permit. And you know, there is a place called Perry Siding a little down the river from Lemon Creek. The bus stopped there, and the RCMP, a police officer came in to check our Japanese identifications and permits... Children didn’t need them, though. They checked the permits. So I think adults in New Denver and other camps in that area needed the permits too. I don’t remember it for sure, though.
TK
そうですか。 Long pause. 中々...あの、キャンプの生活っていうのは、大人の人達は仕事はどうしてたんですか?
I see. Long pause. Um... about the life in the camp, ... how did adults make livings?
UU
Bay Farmなんかはですね、大抵の男の人は山に、いわゆる、log campっていうんですかね。トラックで、毎日何台かトラックに(?)乗って行って山で材木の伐採ですかね。 で、製材所なんかもありました。(?)今度は本格的なもっと大きな山に他の(?)が出稼ぎっていうか(?)行ってましたね。どの辺になるのかな?ちょっと忘れましたけど。 大きな...Slocanの近辺の山で規模も小さいですから。だからもっと遠くの方の山に本格的なwork campに(?)行ってました。
In Bay Farm , most men worked in the mountain, so-called log camp. On trucks,... they got on a few trucks (?) every day and went to the mountain to cut down trees for lumber. There was also a sawmill. (?) went to a full-scale bigger mountain like migrate workers. I wonder where it was. I don’t remember. A large... The mountains around Slocan were small. So they went to a full-scale work camp in a further mountain..
TK
ああ、そうですか。
Oh, I see.
UU
その頃から今度各家庭にたき火をどのくらい(?)大きくて。大抵の大きさはこれくらいです。色々松やら楓やら白樺とか色んな雑種の木を、手ごろな木を 伐採してそれをまた手ごろな長さに切って。で、それを中型トラックで言うでしょうね、たき火が無くなりつつあるから持って来てくれと。それを係りの人が 役所に届け出るとドォーンと(?)くる。で、今度は、それはそういう班がおるわ。それを今度は割ってくれる班がおるわけです。それで二、三人でこう、 あちこち動き回って。自分でも割ってもいい、割ってみる人も(?)。そんなに人がおらんかったらその班の人に頼んでた。その班が割ってくれる。日本人 のやる事だからお茶を出したりして(?)そういう事して。で、bathは、銭湯は、public bathがあって無料ですよ。それが二か所。Bay Farmに二か所。 Downtown辺りだった。大きな、男女別にして。物凄く大きな浴槽があって。(?)。で、家の裏とかよく、適当に土地が各家にあってそこで野菜を作ったりして。
From around that time, firewood for each family... I wonder how long it was. The biggest ones were... Most of them were around this size. They cut down various kinds of trees in good sizes, such as pine trees, maples, birches, and so on, into good length, and then put them on medium-sized trucks. I think people called them when they were running out of firewood and asked them to bring more. Once people let the person in charge, the office, know, they delivered it in big pieces. And then, ...That was done by a group of people. Then, there was another group of people who cut them into pieces. Two, three people moved around. We could cut them by ourselves too. Some people did it themselves (?) There were not many people, so we asked the group to do it. The group did it for us. And because we were Japanese, we served them tea, and so on (?). And the bath... There were public baths, and they were free. We had two of them. Two in Bay Farm. Around downtown. The big ones, separated for men and women. There were huge bathtubs. (?). Often, there were some spaces at the back of each house, and we grew vegetables and so on there.
00:35:08.000
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UU
皆実家で野菜作ってました。皆、日本人はやっぱり器用ですからね。野菜なんかいっぱい作って。そして(趣味?)をやる人いましたね。(?)があるでしょ。 それを切って碁盤、勿論将棋の駒作る人もおったし。何て言うんですか、碁を打つ台?
Everyone grew vegetable at home. Because Japanese are all good with our hands, we grew a lot of vegetables and so on. Some people (? for hobby?). You know, there was (?). They cut it and made go game boards. Some people, of course, made shogi pieces too. What do you call the board to play go on?
TK
碁盤ですね。
Goban.
UU
あんなんを作った人もいましたよ。
Some people made those kinds of things.
TK
そうですか。
I see.
UU
器用な人もいるから立派なやつをね。時々展覧会とか品評会とかあるわけですよ。そしたら菊とかをね、針金でこう流して盆栽とかね、菊とかよくこう針金 とかでうまい具合こうして。だから器用な人がね、やっぱり(?)職の人もおったんじゃないかと思います。色んなその辺の材料使ってね、やってましたよね 。皆色々と。日本人、物凄い硬い木があるんです。それでブローチなんかが出来る。物凄い硬いんです。それをこう切って色々作る人(?)木の根っこを 切って色んなこう生け花の台...植木を載せる...生け花の(?)。
There were some people who were clever with their hands, so they created good ones. We sometimes had competitions and exhibitions. They created some bonsais using wires like this... arranging chrysanthemums and so on nicely with wires like this. Skillful people did that. I think there were some professionals too. They used materials around them in handy. Everyone devised various ways. Japanese... There is very hard wood, and they could make broaches and so on with it. It’s really hard. Some people cut that and made various things, ...cutting roots and making ikebana-stands... the stands to put potted plants on... (?) for ikebana.
TK
なるほどね。
I see.
UU
だからやろうと思えば、工夫すればなんか出来ますよね。それこそ「意志があるところに道がある」と言うわけで。
So, if you want to do something, you can devise ways to do it. They say, Where there’s a will, there’s a way.
TK
まあ、大人はそういう趣味をやってると思うけど子供はどうですか?子供は遊ぶっていうか...
Okay, adults had those hobbies, but how about children? They played...
UU
まあ、学校が’43年の春からあって。学校の先生はバンクーバー辺り、コースト、海岸におった時のhighschool出たくらいのgrade 12、grade 10、12 くらいの人達が、すいう人を募集して。で、試験あるから。意外と質は高かったですよ。
Well, school started in the spring of 1943. Teachers were those who just graduated from grade 12 in high schools around Vancouver, the coast areas, ... those who finished grade 10 or 12 were recruited as teachers. Because there was an exam, the quality of teachers was actually high.
TK
ああ。そうですか。
Oh, I see.
UU
私はただSlocanで英語力ゼロ、随分力付きました。
My English skill was zero, but it improved a lot in Slocan.
TK
ああ、じゃあ英語も勉強したという事ですね。日本語だけではなく。
Oh, then you studied English too. Not only Japanese.
UU
日本語は禁じられておったんですよね。
Japanese was prohibited.
TK
ああ、そうですか。
Oh, was it?
UU
日本語を教える事、禁じられておったです。
Teaching Japanese was banned.
TK
じゃあそのハイスクールっていうのは大体英語でやったわけですね。
Then you were taught mostly in English in that high school.
UU
いわゆるpublic school、英語です。このBC州のSchool Boardが何て言いますか、ビクトリア直轄の...それで厳しいテストがあって。それを取らなかったら (遠慮?)した事にされる。まあ、こちらの主義でね。で、どんどん落とされて。Mr. (Anesty?)っていう非常に厳格な、そういうビクトリアとかから来る 教育庁かどっかの部署かなんかの厳しい係りいましたよ。それが視察によく来てました。こう授業やっとたら入って来て「(Show of hands?)!」ってね 、色々記録するわけですよ。それでもう生徒なんかの(?)なんかをバァっと遠慮なく取ったりしてね。こう調べて。震えましたよね。で、夏休みになると 先生方は講習...先生のアップグレードっていうか、アップデートっていうか両方ですか。先生達だけを集めて何かやってましたよね。New Denverかどっかに集めて。 とにかく私から言わせるとああいう先生達は、素人先生 だっただろうけどそれにしては手を...私はすごいええ(?)ものを。ここで、バンクーバーでも Kerrsidale School行っとった時どうにかこうにかやって。Slocanに行って身につきましたもん。
It was so-called a public school, so in English. The school board in BC, ...what do you call it? ... under the direct control of the office in Victoria, ... had a strict exam, and if you didn’t pass it, they failed you (without hesitation?). That was the principle here. And many people failed. There was a very strict officer, named Mr. (Anesty?), from the division of the Ministry of Education or something in Victoria . He often came for inspection. He came in to the classroom in the middle of the class, saying (Show of hands?)! and made records of various things. He even bluntly took (notebooks?) away from students and check them like this. We were trembling. Then, during summer breaks, teachers were called for seminars... for teacher upgrading or updates... or for both. They called in only teachers and were doing something. They called them to New Denver or somewhere. Anyway, although those teachers were amateur, they were (well-trained?) in my eyes. I learned English there (?). When I went to Kerrisdale School in Vancouver , I only managed to keep up, but after I went to Slocan , I finally mastered it.
TK
あの、学校ではそうやって(?)無かったかもしれないけど普段はやっぱり日本語で子供達は一緒に遊んだんでしょうか?
Um, you (?) at school as you said, but did you play with other children in Japanese outside of school?
UU
子供達は英語ですよ。やっぱね。
Children spoke English, after all.
TK
ああ、そうですか。
Oh, I see.
UU
英語が殆どですね。
Mostly in English.
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UU
ただ(?)が違う、彼らは英語で話さないですけど皆自分らの言葉で話すからですね。ウクライナ語か何か知らないですけど。我々に負けないようにって言って。 日本人の子供は日本語でこう話す事はあったんですけど。流暢ではないですけどね。家庭では親は日本語話す(?)。日本語学校も行っていましたよ、闇で。
But different (?)... They didn’t speak English but spoke their own language. I don’t know if it was Ukrainian or something, though. Competing them, Japanese children sometimes spoke Japanese but were not fluent. At home, parents spoke Japanese (?), and children also went to the Japanese Language School, secretly.
TK
ああ、そうですか。
Oh, I see.
UU
うん、隠れて。これは身につかないですよね。闇でやっとる事だしなんか皆(?)の人、子供はもうCelticと同じでおやつ食べてもうキョロキョロしたり、 もうそういう事であんまり身につかなかった。(?)学校以外は土曜日、日曜日遊んでましたね。釣りの、河川には魚がいっぱいおるし、湖にもおるしね。 (?)子供は。大人は釣りしたらいけないんですよね。大人が釣りしたらそれは犯罪に。で、罰金取られて、道具も没収されてしまう。
Yes, secretly. But they didn’t learn much. Because it was illegitimate, everyone (?). Children ate snacks, looked around, and so on, just like children in Celtic did, so they didn’t learn much Japanese. (?) Other than school, we were free to play on Saturdays and Sundays. There were lots of fish in the river, and in the lake too, so children... Adults were not allowed to fish. It was illegal for adults to fish. If they did, they were fined, and tools were taken away.
TK
おお、そうですか。
Oh, I see.
UU
はい。これは明らかな人種差別ですよ。Japanese not allowed to fish, adults、大人はね。子供はそうでないですけど。未成年。だから大人は皆闇で隠れて釣るわけです。 夜明け前に出て、日が暮れてから帰って来るわけです。遠くの山越えして谷に、深い(?)の中行ってリュックサックいっぱい釣って来るんです。一夜暮れてから帰って来るわけですよ。
Yes. It was clearly racial discrimination. Japanese not allowed to fish... Adults were not. Children were okay, though. Minors were. So adults all went fishing secretly. They went out before dawn and came back after sunset. They crossed the mountain to the deep valley (?) to fish and brought back their rucksacks full of fish. They came back after night fell.
TK
ああ、じゃあ結構そうやって取れる...?
Oh, then they got that much fish...
UU
いましたよ、いましたよ。山奥の所ですからtroutなんか(?)てないわけですよ。人間(?)しないわけです。だからうちの兄貴なんか肉の安いやつ買って来て、 筋のある肉は大体硬いでしょ、それを付けて(?)パカーっと食うわけです。それを釣って袋に入れて。餌は何べんも使えるわけですよ。中々減らないですから。 (ミミズ?)だったら溶けるから。 Tatsuo agrees. 肉やって、肉(?)針出して。その、troutとか野蛮というか激しいからバァーっと食いつきます。 子供はっつても子供釣るのは(?)からね。
Yes, there was a lot of fish. Because it was deep in the mountain, trout were (?). They didn’t (afraid of?) people. So my brother bought cheap meat, and stringy meat is usually tough, isn’t it? He put that to a fishing rod, then fish bit at it. He caught the fish and put it in a bag, and the bait could be reused many times because it doesn’t get gone so soon. Worms would melt away soon, though. Tatsuo agrees. He put meat and stuck a hook in it. Fish like trout is fierce, or savage, so aggressively bit on the bait. Children only fished something like (?).
TK
ええ。
Okay.
UU
子供に私(?)釣った事も無いですけど私の知ってる連中で(?)マス(?)。で、¥山がもうずっと山が近くで。で、山に私達よく遊びに行きましたね。 わらび取りとか(松茸?)なんかも出ました。
When I was a child, I hadn’t even fished (?), but those I knew had (fished?) trouts (?). We were close to mountains, so we often went to the mountain. We picked brackens. There were also (matsutake mushrooms?).
TK
ああ、そうですか。
Oh, was that so?
UU
わらびもそれから野生のユリとか持って帰ったんで。色々な事、面白かったですよ。大自然しかない。冬は厳寒現象ですね。雪が沢山降って気温もグッと下がるし。 だから凍るし。冬はスケートや山でソリやったりスキーをやったり。夏は水浴び。
We picked brackens and wild lilies. It was fun to do various things. There was only vast nature around us. Winter there was severe. It snowed a lot, and the temperature went gown quite low. So things got frozen. In winter, we went skating and went to the mountain for sleighing or skiing. In summer, we played in the river.
TK
その頃の割り当てられた住宅っていうのはどうだったんですか?二家族くらい一緒に?
What was the houses you were given at that time like? Did around two families live together?
UU
小さい所帯だった、子供が一人とかだったら一つの家を半分か家族のある三分の一を親御さんに使わせて残りを(?)とかそんな変なね、まあ、半分にした所割ったか 知らんですけどそういう風な所もあったそうです。うちは人数多かったから一軒(?)したよね。こういう風に、まあ、家があって真ん中に(?)があって窓がこうあって。 横にも窓があって。裏にも窓が一つあって。入ったばかりの所は(?)。そこの正面に暖房用のストーブが。
Small families or families with just one child shared a house. For example, one family used half of the house, or a family let their parents use a third of the house(?), or something weird like that. Or maybe they too split the house in half. I don’t know. Some people seemed to do that. Because my family was a big family, we used a whole house (?). There was a house like this, there was (?) in the middle, and there were windows like this. There were windows on the sides too. There was also one window on the back. When we just moved in, (?). There was a stove for heating right in front of it.
00:45:05.000
00:45:05.000
UU
奥に、ちょっと奥に行くとキッチンストーブ、流しがあって。左右に(?)。それには台所、狭いっていうのは大抵の人は増築しましたね。(?)増築しました。水道管も引く人多かったです。 近くのAvenueまでは水道が来とる分けですよ。この蛇口があるわけですよ。共同用の。それが家庭に引くんだったら実費で頼んで引いてもらうわけですよね。で、それ凍るからね、深く掘って、 6尺くらい掘り下げないと凍りますから。そんなんして。で、家に引いた。家の下を自分で掘って粗末な地下室(?)。うちに野菜を貯蔵するため(?)houseってのを。その、掘ったら自然に(?)あります。 それに夏中に作ったニンジンとかキャベツを生けてね。冬のもう12月、1月、2月凍り付いたような寒い時にそれ出して結構新鮮で。本当の時期の旬のものみたいなそういう立派なものは得られないけど保存 した野菜にしては結構いいのが。キャベツなんかでも上葉は黒くなってこう腐っておってね。二枚くらい取ったら中は完全ですよ。キャベツとかニンジンとか。 Difficult to hear Roy do to people talking in the background. バリエーション、ニンジン、キャベツあとなんだったかな。玉ねぎ。そういうのをよく貯蔵してました。だから半自給自足みたいなね。大人は魚釣ったら怒られるけど(?)あそこは...
At the back, ...going to the back a little, there was a kitchen stove and a sink. On both sides, (?). The kitchen was too small, and most people extended their kitchens. Extended (?). Many people installed water pipes too. The water pipe came to the avenue in the neighbourhood, and there were faucets we shared. If we wanted to extend it to our houses, we did so at our own expenses. And because it would get frozen, they had to dig the ground deep They needed to dig around 6 feet deep, otherwise, it would get frozen. We did that and extended the water pipe to our houses. We also dug the ground underneath our houses to create a simple cellar (?) to store vegetables, we called it (?) house. If you dig the ground, naturally (?). We stored carrots and cabbages we grew during summer. We took those out when it was freezing cold, in December, January or February. They were actually fresh. We were not able to get good seasonal foods, but, in terms of vegetables, we were able to get quite good ones. The leaves on the surface of cabbages were black and rotten , but after removing a couple of leaves, the inside was perfectly good. We kept cabbages, carrots, and so on. Difficult to hear Roy do to people talking in the background. . What kind of things did we have? Carrots, cabbages,... what else did we have? Onions. We often stored those vegetables. So we were almost half self-sufficient. Adults got punished if they fished, but (?) there... END OF SIDE 1
00:47:38.000
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UU
...自給自足を殆ど出来るんですよね。うまい事やれば。
We were able to live almost self-sufficient lives if we managed well.
TK
それじゃあですね、少し話をいわゆる、その、本題之所に。日本に引き揚げるかどうかっていうあたりの話なんですけどね、ロイさんの場合は日本に帰るのかそれとも東の方へ行くのかっていう 話もあったんですよね。そういう事はロイさんの家庭の中で話...
Then, now let’s go to our main topic. It’s about the time when you decided whether to go to Japan . In your case, Roy, your family was to decide whether to go back to Japan or to go to the east, right? Did you family talk about...
UU
してましたよ。親父はもうけしからんと。カナダの国でやって来た事は(?)。二回いわゆるそのsigningっていうのがありまして。学校かどっかに特別設けまして。皆行ってサインさせたんですよね。 もうMountieが、国家警察が赤いtunicで正装してやって来ましたよね。で、皆サインする。最初、あれ、何年何月か知らないですけど、サインした時日本に行く人が断然多かったんですよね。
We did. My father said it was unbelievable. What he had been doing in Canada was (?). There were so-called signings twice. They set a special signing site at a school or somewhere, and everyone had to go there to sign. Mounties, the RCMP , came in their official red tunics. And everyone signed. At first, ...I don’t know which year and month, but the first time we signed, more people signed to go to Japan (than to go to the east).
TK
ええ。
Yes.
UU
で、日本の敗色が分かってから変わってね。またサインになって。その時キャンセルしたんです。日本に行く事キャンセルした人が(?)ちょっと(?)ですけどね。そうとうですね。 もしかしたら半分くらい。
But once we learned that Japan was likely to lose, it changed. We were called for signing again, and people cancelled. There were (?) people who cancelled to go to Japan. Many people did. Possibly half of them.
TK
あのね、最初にサインした人の合計は1万人超えてたんですよ。
Actually, at first, more than ten thousand people signed to go to Japan.
UU
そうでしょう。
I guess so.
TK
それに対して帰った人は4000人ぐらいですかね。
However, the number of people who actually went back to Japan was about four thousand.
UU
うん、うん。
Yes, yes.
TK
だから半分以上の人は...
So more than half of the people...
UU
そうでしょう。親父も随分と(?)ことながら話し、もう皆持ち切りですよその話でね。家の中、家庭でも話、その辺の隣近所のそれこそ周りの人と垣根越しにその事で話してもう聞きたくなくても 聞こえます。最初の時「ほぉ、あんな白人みたいな物の考えする人が日本に行くんか」と思うような人かなりおったんですね。
I think so. My father also talked about it (?) a lot. Everyone just talked about it. At home, in our neighbourhood, ...we talked about it with our neighbours over the fences. Even though I didn’t want to hear it, I couldn’t help hearing it. At first, there were many people about whom I thought, Oh, even those who have such a way of thinking as Caucasians do are going to Japan.
TK
はい。じゃあ最初はやはりそういう日本に行くと希望した人が意外なまでに多かった感じがしたわけですね。
Yes. Then, at first, you felt that there were more people who wished to go to Japan than you expected.
UU
それでその負けそうだとなったら行かないと言う、行く事をやめたって人が随分出たという事は覚えています。(?)。
Then, I remember that many people changed their minds and decided not to go once they learned that Japan was likely to lose. (?).
TK
あの、お父さんが日本に帰ると言われた具体的な、例えば財産を失ったとかなんか、特になんかそういう事ではっきりした...
Um, do you remember clearly anything that happened when your father decided to go back to Japan? For example, he lost his properties, and so on...
UU
あの、親父ら帰化してましたしね。もう親父が帰化したの随分前の事ですけどね。帰化して何年になってるか分からないけど、覚えて無いですけど。その、帰化して(?)そんな帰化したって 紙屑ですよね。その紙には国王陛下の(?)時の式はカナダ(?)市民と(同権?)のどうのこうので言うとったんですけど、紙屑ですよ。そんなんで親父なんかも大いに失望どころか 裏切られたっていうか。だからとにかくそういうい事で。だから昔のの人間にみえて保守的なあれですけどね。だからもう初めから彼はCanadaには用は無いって。こうなったら difficult to hear due to background noise. 。私達は小さいからどうしようも無かった。私のRichmondにおる上の姉はちょっと、その頃17、8だったからちょっと大人(?)。だからその姉には自己を尊重する意味でお前の 好きなようにしたらいいという事で。で、また、その姉はうちのすぐ長男の兄貴がやっぱり幅を利かせておったから。うちの兄貴と三男坊は’44年かにMontrealに行ったんですよ。 途中からMontrealに行っとったんですよ。やっぱり9月頃かな、BCなんかに、政府も奨励して、あっちに行くように。
Well, my father had already been naturalized. It was a long time ago, though. I don’t know or remember how many years ago he became naturalized. He was naturalized (?), but his naturalization certificate was just water paper now, wasn’t it? The paper had King’s (?). In the (?) ceremony, he was told that he had the same right (?) as Canadian citizens, and so on. But it became just waste paper. So my father was very disappointed or felt betrayed. Anyway, that was how he took it. So although he looked like a (?) man from old time, it was a conservative thinking, though. So from the beginning, he said he had finished with Canada. Now difficult to hear due to background noise. . Because we were little, there was nothing we could do. Because my older sister, who is in Richmond now, was seventeen or eighteen at that time, she was a grown-up. So respecting her rights, she was told that she could do whatever she liked. My oldest brother right above her had a big influence on her at that time. That oldest brother and the third one went to Montreal in 1944 or so. They moved to Montreal while we were still in the camp. I think it was around September. The government, the BC government, encouraged to go to the east.
00:52:43.000
00:52:43.000
TK
はい。
Yes.
UU
それでそういう所行っても将来性ないし。で、その、三男の兄貴まだ若いし、これからっていうわけだから遠くに行けばまた道が切り開かれるんじゃないかっていう事で。ちゃんと三男は守っとる(?) 40年間(?)。(?)はSlocanに残ってますけどね。その当時の、私の上の(?)一番下の...Richmondにおる姉が私のすぐ上でその上の姉が17,8くらいでその姉が日本に行くかカナダに 残るかっていう事でMontrealの兄貴もお前も一人前の(?)お前の自由にしたらいいだろうっていう事で。だからお父さんと四人(?)。お袋は日本で’41年に亡くなりました。 それで親父と私と姉二人と四人で。
Because going to such a place would open up no future, and also because the third brother was still young, he thought there might be a new path open to him if he went to the faraway place. The third brother has been keeping his promise (?) for forty years (?). (?) stays in Slocan, though. (?) above me, the youngest... the sister who is in Richmond now is right above me, and the sister above her was around seventeen or eighteen at that time. The oldest brother in Montreal also said she could decide herself whether to go to Japan or to stay in Canada because she was already a grown up (?). So four of us, including my father, (?). My mother passed away in Japan in 1941. So four of us, my father, my two sisters, and I went to Japan.
TK
Tatsuo sounds to be taking notes. お父さんとお姉さん...
Tatsuo sounds to be taking notes. Your father and your sister...
UU
姉二人。(?)の姉が二人。独身の姉。
Two sisters. Two sisters who (?). Sisters who were single.
TK
それとロイさんが四人...
Including you, Roy, four of you...
UU
親子四人で。兄弟三人と親父と。で、’46年の六月。だからSlocanに丸四年おったわけですよ。
Four of us. My father and three siblings. In June 1946. So I was in Slocan for four whole years.
TK
そうですか。どうですか?ロイさん日本に小学校入る頃行ってらしたわけですから。そうすると日本の事は結構よく覚えて...?
I see. How was it? Because you were in Japan around the time when you entered the elementary school, did you remember things in Japan well?
UU
うん。
Yes.
TK
だからそういう意味では帰る事についての抵抗っていうのはどうだったんですか?
In that sense, I imagine that you were not much reluctant to go back to Japan. How was it?
UU
えっとね、抵抗というのかね、なんかとにかく、この間日本に来たばっかりじゃないかという、まあ、5年経ってましたけどね。ちょっと私にとってはそんなに年月経っているような、 5年経ってるような気は...とにかくまた行くんかっていう。No choiceだからね。私はそんな決めるあれやったから。とにかく日本が大きな戦争に負けたんだっていうその、 負けたら爆撃を、アメリカの熾烈な爆撃をしょっちゅう受けてるとはいつもニュースで聞かされておったし、英語のニュースなんかで見てるし。なんっつても原爆投下された事があったからね。 そういう事があるから、そういう(?)があった所に行ってどうなるんだろうかっていうその、子供心ながら不安で。で、その、いわゆる、完全に理解は出来てなかったけどカナダから追い出される。 その、アメリカ、(?)国には(?)たりしてくれたけどカナダから(て?)が切れるんだという、切れてしまうんだと。戦争前に日本に行ったのは自由に行って、自由にまた帰って来れるっていう。 今度はそうでじゃなくて、なんか重要なサインがあってそれに基づいて行くんで。だからあの時と同じ行くでもあの時とは違うんだという重苦しさと言うか不安というかね。複雑な気も子供心に、 複雑だったですね。日本が負けて自分らは敵国人で日本が負けて...とにかく外に送られるんだっていう。Choiceをね、ロッキーよりイーストに行くか日本に行くかどっちかにせいと。 Choiceは二つだけどそのchoiceはいいchoiceではないですね。Ultimatumでしょ。だから複雑な気持ちだったね。不安がいっぱいあったですね。その扱い、例えば戦争終わってたでしょ、 ’45年。
Well, rather than being reluctant, I felt like I was in Japan just a while ago even though fives had already passed. I didn’t feel like such a long time, five years, had passed... anyway, I just thought that I was going to Japan again. Because there was no choice. I had no power to make the decision. Anyway, the news always reported that Japan was losing a big war. They were losing the war and being bombed, frequently receiving fierce bombing by the US. We watched such news in English. Above all, atomic bombs were dropped. We knew those things, so even though I was little, I was worried what was going to happen to us if we moved to such a place (?). Although I didn’t fully understand, I understood that we were going to be chase out of Canada. Although the US, (?) countries (?), we are going to lose connection with Canada. Before the war, we were able to go to Japan freely and come back freely, but this time, we were going to Japan based on some important signing, so it was different from the last time. I had something like an oppressive feeling or worries. I was a little child but had complex feelings. Japan lost, and we were enemy aliens... anyway, we were going to be expelled. We were told to make a choice, whether to go to the east of the Rockies or to go to Japan. There were two choices, but those were not positive ones. It was an ultimatum. So I had complex feelings and was worried so much. The treatment... For example, the war had already ended... In 1945.
TK
はい。
Yes.
UU
’46年の6月、殆ど1年10か月。戦争終わって(?)。だけど汽車で特別汽車で(?)、Slocanに行ったようにまたそれには国家警察がちゃんと付き添ってね。それでそこを二日くらいで出て(?) 汽車で揺れてこう来たわけですね。
In June 1946. Almost a year and ten months after the war ended (?). But we were on a special train (?) accompanied by the RCMP again, just like when we went to Slocan. After leaving Slocan, we traveled on the train for about two days.
00:57:42.000
00:57:42.000
UU
今のあれですか、Pan PacificのConvention Centreのあの辺に着いたわけですよ。そこで丸一日おったんですよね。それ(?)撤退出来ないんですよ。警察が厳しく取り締まって。 まあ、軟禁でしたね。
And then we arrived at the station of Pan Pacific, which is now near the Convention Centre. We were there a whole day. We were not allowed to leave there. We were under strict surveillance by the police. It was almost like house arrest.
TK
その(?)の中にいたんですか?
Were you in (?)?
UU
うん、(?)。その辺ちょっと運動する為にちょっとおったんですけどそこ離れたいけないんです。(?)。市内に行くとしたら特別なグループを仕立てて、付き添いがおって、その(?)で(?) でしか行けない。(?)。そういう事で、戦争終わってるのにまだ捕虜みたいな扱いですよね。そんなんで、中で僕は育ったんですね。まあ、それでアメリカの軍用車で(?)やってて。 あれ、Liberty Shipって言うんでしょうね。なんか戦時中に誰も(?)をした。それにアメリカからの引揚者、まあ、カナダの日本人、日系人程多くないですけど。アメリカの送還される人達、 引き揚げする人達と南米のペルーから。アメリカにしばらく送られてそれから今度は日本に行く人達もおったわけで。ペルーから我々みたいな...
Yes, in (?). I was around there to move and stretch my body for a while, but I was not allowed to leave there. (?). If we wanted to go out to the city, they were told to make a special group and were accompanied. They were only allowed to go (?). (?). So, although the war had already ended, we were treated like prisoners of war. I grew up in such an environment. Then, (?) in a military vehicle. Was it called a Liberty Ship? Everyone (?) during the war. There were repatriates from the US too, not as many as Japanese in Canada, though. Those who were repatriated from the US... those going back from the US and those from Peru in South America. There were people who were sent to the US, stayed there for a while, and then went to Japan. Just like us, from Peru.
TK
やっぱり二世みたいな人達が...
People like Nisei...
UU
うん、ただ英語話さない。スペイン語ばっかりでね。
Yes. But they didn’t speak English. Just Spanish.
TK
ほぉ。
Oh.
UU
だから、まあ、日本語は片言ですよ。我々がその人達と意思の疎通する事が、お互いに片言のbackground日本語で。自分達は英語で、向こうはスペイン語で。だから奇妙なあれだったね。 同じ日本人だけど全然その感じが違う。南米の人達、南米の日系人。
So, their Japanese were broken. When we communicated with them, both of us spoken broken languages with Japanese background. We spoke English, and they spoke Spanish. So it was weird. We were all Japanese, but we felt completely different. South American people. Japanese South Americans.
TK
それは初めて聞いたなぁ。アメリカ、カナダ、ペルーからも。
I had never heard of it before. There were people from the US , Canada , and from Peru , too.
UU
それでそのペルーの人達が大統領声明があったみたいでね。
There seems to have been a president’s statement.
TK
それはペルーで?
Was it in Peru?
UU
そうです。ペルー政府が大分酷く扱ったみたいでね。なんかアメリカにちょっと(?)みたいな。今ペルーで経済事情なんか酷いでしょ。とにかくなんかペルーはちょっと無政府状態みたいな事よく 起こるんですよ。いつもそんな、今、数年の中でも良くないらしいですから。あの頃はまだね。在ペルーの日本人は酷い目にあったらしいですよ。それからアメリカにくれてしまうってのはアメリカに...
Yes. The government of Peru seems to have treated Japanese very badly. They (?) the US. The economic situation in Peru is terrible right now, isn’t it? Peru often turns into something like an anarchical state. It’s always like that and is especially in the worst state now in the last few years. At that time, still... Japanese in Peru seems to have been treated terribly. Then being sent to the US was like...
TK
追放したみたいなわけで。アメリカに追放したみたいな事に。
Being kicked out to the US. Like being expelled to the US.
UU
そうですね。アメリカに任せたっていう事でね。まあ、アメリカがそれを収容して。アメリカの中で何か所かで収容されて。だからかれらも、ペルーの人達も、ペルーの日系人も大分酷い仕打ちを受けた。 やっぱりここみたいに農場とか没収されて、立ち退きで。アメリカで在日アメリカ人を収容して日本に送還する。それに結局一緒にやってもらったんですよね。我々カナダも同じアメリカの軍用船で 二週間ぐらい。それで船の中はアメリカの事だから豊ですよね。食事でもその味はさほど無いけど、もう食事なんて山ほど食い放題。チキンでも牛肉でもなんでも。なんでもいっぱいですね。 アメリカの豊かさは何処に行ってもある。それである日、横浜に着いて。それで横浜で荷物の両陸やらアメリカのcitizenにもアメリカの占領軍の家族なんかが少しおったんですね。 それから今度は浦賀って言う所に、あそこに行って、浦賀で上陸。で、浦賀で上陸して皆所持品を(?)して。
Yes. They left everything to the US. And the US detained those people. They were detained in some camps in the US. So they, the people from Peru, Japanese Peruvians, too experienced terrible treatments. Just like what happened here, their farms were taken away, and they were uprooted. The US interned Japanese Americans and send them to Japan. After all, the Peruvian government left the internment and repatriation of Japanese Peruvians to the US government. We, Japanese Canadians, were also put on the same US military shift and travelled for about two weeks. Because it was a US ship, there were abundant things. Although the meals were not that tasty, we were able to eat as much as we wanted. Chicken, beef, and everything. They had a lot of everything. The richness of the US could be seen everywhere. One day, we arrived in Yokohama . They unloaded baggage and so on. There were some families of the American Occupational Army in the American Citizen (?). Then we went to the place called Uraga and landed there. Once we landed in Uraga, we all (?) our belongings.
01:02:44.000
01:02:44.000
UU
浦賀からトラックで山越えで今防衛大学がある久里浜。後からそこ散歩して分かったんですけどペリーて男が上陸した所。1853年か。ペリーが開国のあれを迫ったという記念塔が立っていまして。 そこで二週間、あそこ、練兵場かな?三階建ての木造の旧帝国陸軍の兵舎でね。二週間ぐらいおったですよね。それから自分の、それぞれの国にやられた。久里浜の仮収容所におった時は軍隊の 糧秣を食べられたわけです。旧軍の何て言うたかね、戦闘用食っていうか、軍人に与える(?)なんかする時に噛む乾麺麭とかね。行軍用乾麺麭とか(?)そんな配給があって。で、(砂糖?) なんか何も入ってない。我々こちら(?)慣れてるから。初め(?)それもそれしかないですからね。(?)麦の本当のいい味なんかを味わって。御飯が、麦の御飯ですね。 全然あの...おかずは割と缶詰が多い方。色々魚の缶詰とかね、(?)軍隊の(?)らしい。
From Uraga, we crossed the mountain and went to Kurihama, where the National Defence Academy is now, on a truck. I learned this when I went there for a walk later, but that was the place where the man named Perry landed. Was it in 1853? There was a monument telling that Perry demanded Japan to open up the country. For two weeks, we stayed there ... Was it a military training ground? It was a wooden three-story military housing previously owned by the Imperial Japanese Army. We were there for about two weeks. Then each of us was sent to our hometown. When we were in the temporary detention facility in Kurihama, we were able to eat military provisions. What did we call it...combat rations? Hardtack for soldiers to bite when they (?), and so on. There were rations such as hardtack for combat, and so on. It didn’t contain any (sugar) at all. We were used to (?). At first, (?). That was all we could get. (?) we savoured the real taste of wheat. We ate wheat instead of rice. The side dishes were canned food most of the time. Various canned food, such as cans of fish. I heard that (?) military (?).
TK
そうですか。
I see.
UU
兵隊用のエネルギーを(?)為に甘い軍隊用のお菓子なんかあったり。
There were also sweets, which were originally for soldiers to gain energy.
TK
そうなんですか。 Tatsuo sounds a little amused.
Were there? Tatsuo sounds a little amused.
UU
そんなん与えられたね。まあ、良かったです。そっからまたその引揚者(?)。そっから送り出したんですよ。久里浜の駅を出た途端に後はそれっきりなんですよ。しばらく 「学生同盟」ってのがありましたよね。その人達、親切にしてくれましたね。皆(?)。大学生、学生同盟っていうのがあって。あのどさくさの時にしてみたら本当に感謝すべきですね。
We were given those things. That was good. From there, the repatriates (?). We were sent out from there. Once we left the station in Kurihama , we were let go with no more supports any more. You know, there was a group called the Student League (Gakusei Domei) for a while. They were kind to us. Everyone (?). There was what was called the Student League, consisting of university students. We should be grateful to their help in such confusing time.
TK
学生がお世話してくれるんですよね。
Students took care of repatriates, didn’t they?
UU
こっちの人の勝手が分からないでしょ。だからそういう人達が色々走り回ってね、ケアしてくれてね。どこの駅で、何県のどこの駅に降るかその人達もその駅で間違いなく降ろしてくれたり(?)。
Because we didn’t know our ways around, those people ran around and took care of us. For example, they told us the station to get off, which station in which province we should get off, and made sure we got off at the right station (?).
TK
あっ、列車乗って来てお世話してたんですか?
Oh, did they even get on the train with you to take care of you?
UU
大分長く、大阪よりもっと...
They stayed with us for quite a long time, even after we passed Osaka ...
TK
はあ、そうですか。
Oh, I see.
UU
広島...最後まではおってくれなかったですけど、大分長く、広島辺りまでおったんじゃないですかね。学生同盟って。それでその頃の(?)日本を知らないですけど、学生同盟ってのだけは覚えてるね。 あんなどさくさの時にああいう人達の親切は尊いですね。それこそunselfishな。あの頃はそれこそeverybody for themselvesの時でしょ。
Not to Hiroshima , our final destination, but I think they were on the train with us for a long time and probably came as far as around Hiroshima. They were called the Student League. I don’t know about (?) in Japan, but the Student League is one of the things I clearly remember. The kindness of those people in such confusing time was precious. That was an unselfish act. Because it was the time of everybody for themselves, wasn’t it?
TK
汽車はあれですか。特別列車って言われたけれども一般の人が乗ってきても...
Was the train... You said it was a special train, but was the public also allowed to get on...
UU
その久里浜の駅を乗る時だけ、までは、特別列車なんです。後はもう、席はその時はちゃんと空席をちゃんと与えられた。久里浜駅を出たら最後。後は他の人にとられるわけです。それはもうしまいです。 学生同盟の人が来て色々話してくれるかも分からんけど。まあ、それで席とられたかどうか覚えてないですけど、そういう事...大変、自分で自分の身を守る(?)。その学生同盟の人達がね、 わざと大きな声で言ってくれるわけですよ。「荷物を盗られないように気を付けてくださいよ。財布、スリがいますから」とかね。ワッと大きな声で言って回ってくれるんですね。
Just when we got on the train at the station in Kurihama , only until then, it was a special train. We were given empty seats. But once the train left the Kurihama Station, other people could take our seats. Once they did, that was it. The people from the Student League might have come and talked to those people, but I don’t know. I don’t remember if our seats were taken by other people, but such things... We needed to protect ourselves (?). The people from the Student League warned us intentionally in a loud voice, Be careful not to get your stuff stolen. Watch your wallets. There are thieves. They said that loudly for us.
01:07:59.000
01:07:59.000
UU
で、とにかく久里浜を出て私衝撃を受けたのが、次の駅に着いたら買い出しがね、おるでしょ。で、リュックサックをね、ボーンと、その夏の最中だから暑いから窓解放しとるでしょ。 窓からドーンと舞い込んで来るわけですよね。こういう風に座っとるわけでしょ。あと膝の上を這って通るんです。これはもう子供心閉口しましたね。どういう事だろうと。 戦前の日本って言ったら、私が二年生になる前かな。帝国主義がいよいよ(?)して、それまでは小学校、国民学校みたいでですね。それで日本の学校に入って日本の礼儀作法を一応、 お辞儀なんかして。その、男の子は皆、男の生徒は軍人だからお辞儀なんか女々しいから軍隊、兵隊のように直立して部隊、軍人のように(?)という事で皆敬礼、挙手、敬礼させられた。 だけど言える事は秩序は物凄かったですね。お年寄りを敬うとかね。それはまだ戦後、特別列車を仕立てたまではいいけども、出ると途端に何にもそういう事になってたわけね。 席を奪い合ったりあれしたりして、何て言うかね、本当私はね、子供心に暗い気持ちだったね。こういう所に来てどうなることやら。それがもうずーっと九州まで続いたんですよね。 その状態が。混雑でね。(?)駅ごと止まるでしょ。止まるごとに混んでいってね。
Anyway, after we left Kurihama, one thing that shocked me was ... There were people who were going to buy necessities, waiting at the next station. They threw their rucksacks in from the windows, which were left open because of the heat in the middle of summer. The big rucksack was thrown in from the window where I was sitting like this. And they went over my laps to get in. I was appalled in my child mind. What is happening? The pre-war Japan... was it before I turned grade two? The imperialism was (?), and the elementary school became National Schools (kokumin gakko). I entered a Japanese school and was taught Japanese manners such as how to bow. But because boys were all... male students were soldiers and making bows was femalelike, we were all told to stand straight and to raise our hands to salute as if we were a troop or soldiers (?). One thing I can say is that there was strict discipline. Respecting elderly people and so on. After the war, a special train was prepared for us, but as soon as we left the station, there was no control. People took other people’s seats, and... how should I describe it? I felt really depressed in my child mind. What is going to happen to us in the place like this? Such a situation continued all the way to Kyushu . The chaos. The crowd. The train stopped at each station (?). Everyone time it stopped, more people got on.
TK
それで九州に帰られた所はご親戚なんかいたんですか?
So you went back to Kyushu, and did you have your relatives there?
UU
親戚は沢山いましたよ。
There were lots of relatives there.
TK
ああ、そうですか。
Oh, I see.
UU
戦前も親父のすぐ下の弟が村でちゃんとしてましたからね。そこにまず頼って行った。そこにちょっとおって。それから他の親戚の家を借りて...
Because my father’s younger brother right below him has been in the village from pre-war time, we went to his place first. We stayed there for a while, and then our other relative allowed us to use their house...
TK
でもあれじゃないですかね。お父さんはやっぱりそこで、子供は割に早く慣れるかもしれないけども、日本の暮らしに慣れるのに仕事やなんかの点で大変だったんじゃないですかね。
UU
だけど親父はね、日本に意志で、意欲的に帰るといあれだったからそれなりにadjustは... Roy thinks about how to word his sentence adjustするのにそんなに苦にならなかったみたいです。
My father was willing to go back to Japan so didn’t seem have many difficulties to Roy thinks about how to word his sentence ... to adjust.
TK
ああ、そうですか。
Oh, I see.
UU
うん。それでそれのちょっと後に時期が経ってからですけど、うちの親父が子供の頃、14,5,6の頃から大きな地主の家に奉公にやらおったんですよ。だから百姓仕事が出来るんですよ。 田を鋤いたり、わらで草履を作ったり、草鞋作ったりね。そういう事、うちでも、カナダで何十年も、52年経っても、それでも全然忘れてない。
Yes. And after a while... My father went into service for a large landlord when he was a child, 14, 15, or 16 years old, so he was able to do the farm works, such as plowing rice fields, making straw sandals, and so on. He did that at home. Even after he spent decades, 52 years, in Canada, he didn’t forget it.
TK
そうですか。
I see.
UU
皆が親父さん何処でそれ習ったんですかって。うちの(?)遠くに何年も行っとったから。だから田を鋤いたりその百姓仕事、全然忘れてないです。だから、そんなぐらいだから あんまりadjustには困ってなかったみたい。だけど言葉遣いなんか、いわゆる、日本語化した英語を覚えようとしてましたね。人が訪ねて来たら「Hello」って返事したりね。 「You are」とか「meは」、「window」とか「door」とかね。盛んに、もう染みついてるから。田舎の爺さん婆さんと話す時にうちのwindowとかdoorとか言ってるけど相手は分かってない。 「ああ、そうですか」言うとるけど(?)だからそういう風に。
Everyone asked him where he learned it because he was away for many years. He never forgot how to do the farm works such as plowing fields. So he didn’t seem to struggle to adjust. But speaking... he was trying to learn to Japanize English words. When somebody visited him, he would say Hello (in English). He also mixed English words when speaking Japanese, such as You are, me-wa, window, door, and so on. He often did that because he had been immersed in the English-speaking life. Even to an elderly country person, he was saying window or door, but the other person didn’t actually understand him. Even though they were replying, Oh, I see, or something like that, (?).
01:12:38.000
01:12:38.000
UU
だけどその他はadjustには...うちの兄貴が、親父が日本に帰る意欲的に帰る一つの理由は自分が一番可愛がっとった次男坊がおるという事に希望をおいとったんですよ。自分が、 我々を親子四人日本に連れて1939年に行ったでしょ。それでその明けの年カナダに帰って、折り返しのその船で次男坊...
Other than that, he didn’t seem to suffer much to adjust. My brother... One of the reasons why my father was willing to go back to Japan was because my second oldest brother, who my father loved the best, was in Japan. My father had a hope on it. He took us, and four of us went to Japan in 1939, right? And the next year, he returned to Canada and send the second brother to Japan in the same ship...
TK
ああ、はい。そうですね。
Ah, yes, that’s right.
UU
その次男坊がおる。自分が一番その、親孝行で自分が可愛がった息子だったんですよ。自分の子供のうちで一番自分が...
The second son was there. He was the son who cared about his parents and whom my father himself took care of and loved the best among his children.
TK
可愛がってたんですね。
Your father loved him.
UU
可愛がってた。親孝行だったんですよ。真面目な青年だったんです。その、シゲルって言って、シゲルがおるという事で、頼りになる真面目な親孝行してくれた一番の自分の可愛い息子がおるという事に望みをかけて。
He did. The second brother cared about our parents. He was a faithful young man. His name was Shigeru . My father had a hope on the fact that Shigeru, the reliable son who sincerely cared about his parents and who he loved the most, was there.
TK
なるほど。
I see.
UU
それが大きな、何て言うか、日本に帰る動機って言うかね。自分の指示で帰ったいわゆる息子でしょ。自分がお前日本に行けと言うぐらいで帰った息子で。だからシゲルがおるという事でそれをもう大きな、 唯一じゃなくても、唯一だったかもしれないけど、それが大きな望みですよ。
That was a big... what do you call it?... a motivation to go back to Japan. The son went to Japan because he told him to do so. He followed his suggestions and went to Japan. So it was a big, if not the only ... or it might have been the only, hope that Shigeru was in Japan.
TK
そのシゲルさんというお兄さんは当時いくつくらいだったんですか?ロイさんといくつ違いですか?
How old was your brother Shigeru at that time? How many years older than you, Roy?
UU
大分違いますね。一番上の兄貴よりは下ですけども。
He was so much older than me. Younger than the oldest brother, though.
TK
じゃあもう二十歳過ぎてましたか。
Then, was he over twenty?
UU
それは勿論二十歳過ぎています。今生きとったら70... Roy and Tatsuo talk to each other very quickly. えっと、その兄貴、今長男が78ぐらい。その兄貴ももう70... Roy thinks about how old his brother would be. 私と17くらい上でしたからね。だから...
Of course, he was over twenty. If he was still alive, he would be seventy-... Roy and Tatsuo talk to each other very quickly. um, the brother... The oldest brother is about seventy-eight now. The brother would be also seventy-... Roy thinks about how old his brother would be. He was about seventeen years older than me, so...
TK
もうその時20代の後半ぐらいですかね。
Then maybe he was in about his late twenties.
UU
そうね。
You are right.
TK
じゃあもう頼りに出来るわけですね。
Then he was old enough that you could reply on him.
UU
で、ここで一番上の兄貴と次男坊ともう一人亡くなった長女。この三人が一番うちの兄弟で犠牲になっております。親父がGabriola Islandって所ありますでしょ。あそこで(?)をやっとったわけですよ。 父は何年間か。
The oldest brother, the second brother, and the oldest sister, who has already passed away. Three of them sacrificed the most among our siblings. You know, there is a place called Gabriola Island. My father was (?) there for a few years.
TK
ああ、そうですか。
Oh, did he?
UU
あそこで(?)やっとって。離れ島でしょ、あそこ。それで(?)やってたせいで学校なんて行ってないですよ。だけど不思議な事に、3人とも日本語は完璧に出来るんですよ。 うちの姉なんか物凄い日本語が上手で人が、多くの人が関心するくらい話す上、まあ、日本行った時僕も結構出来ました。だけど英語は、英語の学校は行けなかった。離れ島でね。だけど次男坊は努力して 3,4年遅れて学校に入って、恥ずかしいのを努力してここのhigh schoolを出て。それでさらに(?)して製材所に行ってアルバイトして。シカゴの電気学校は通信教育で最後はそこに、シカゴに出向いたんですけど。 (?)Electrical Schoolで(?)。(?)じゃないけどtechnician、それになったけどここでは人種差別 で全然話にならないわけです。で、どこだったかな、ちょっと電気の店出したくて、ここで。 修理とね。あの頃の電気の器具。掃除機とか、それから電球だね。そういう事しとったんですけど。あんまり成形を立てるまで儲からなかったんでしばらくしてやめました。
He was (?) there. And that is an isolated island, isn’t it? Because (?), they didn’t go to school. But surprisingly, all three of them were able to speak perfect Japanese. The older sister spoke Japanese so well that many people were surprised. I was also able to speak Japanese relatively well. But about their English,... they weren’t able to go to English school because it was the isolated island. The second brother studied hard and entered the school three or four years behind. He was embarrassed but worked hard and graduated high school here. Then he further (?) while working part time at a sawmill. The electrician school in Chicago was distance education, but he moved to Chicago at the end. (?) electrical school (?). He became not (?) but a technician, but because of the racial discrimination, there was no way to succeed. I wonder where it was. He opened an electrical shop here. And also did repair. Electrical appliances at that time, such as vacuum cleaners, light bulbs, and so on. He was doing that, but probably he wasn’t able to earn enough money to make his living. He closed it after a while.
TK
ああ、そうですか。
Oh, I see.
UU
で、就職はもう出来んし。技術はあっても認めてくれない。受け入れてくれない。だから親父が皆こんな所おっても仕方がないから日本に行くと。で、日本に行って安川電機にすぐ入れてもらったんですよ。 それで真面目で(?)認められて、可愛がってもらってたんですよ。だけど戦争が始まって...とにかく村に帰ってからやっとその兄貴が昭和19年に、1943年ですか?\
Then, he wasn’t able find a job any more. Even though he had skills, nobody acknowledged them. He wasn’t accepted anywhere. So my father said we should all go to Japan because it was not worth being here. And after he went to Japan, he soon got hired by Yasukawa Electric Corporation. They recognized my brother’s hard work and took a good care of him. But the war started... Anyway, only after we went back to the village, we were told that in the 19th year of Showa,...Is it 1943? ...we were told that the brother...
01:17:42.000
01:17:42.000
UU
9月にビルマで戦死したっていう事を。でも親父は(?)。
He died in battle in Burma in September. But my father (?).
TK
ああ...そうか。ああ、じゃあ日本に帰るまでは知らなかったわけですね。
Oh... I see. So he didn’t know it until he came back to Japan.
UU
知らなかった。村に帰ってその夜になってやっと... Short pause. ただその兄貴(?)に帰ったんですね。まるで家にとられて行くみたいに。二重国籍じゃなくても日本人っていうだけでとられたかも。 二重国籍だと直とられたね。国籍にはちゃんと村役場に行けばちゃんと戸籍に入ってますからね。だからなくなる事、変わることなく(?)あの時日本が最後の大きな作戦でインパール作戦とかいう作戦をいわゆる、 打ち出して最後の大きなあれ。
He didn’t. Not until the evening when we went back to the village... Short pause. (that brother?). Just as if being taken to some house (?). If he didn’t have dual citizenship and was just a Japanese national, he might have been still taken after all. Those who had dual citizenship were taken right away. He was in our family registry in the village office, without being removed or changed (?). Japan started the last big operation, called Impal Operation, at that time. The last big one.
TK
ロイさんはそれで日本に帰った時は10...?
Were you ten years old when you went back to Japan?
UU
12歳。
Twelve.
TK
12歳。で、そうするとそれからまた学校に行ったわけですね。
Twelve years old. Then you went to school again.
UU
そのまま秋から学校に通っておりました。
I started to go to school from the autumn.
TK
そこの学校でのアジャストメント大変だったでしょ。
It might have been hard to adjust at school there.
UU
そうですね。ただ、漢字がね、出来ないとこれはもう困りましたね。読み書きがSlocanの日本語学校なんて全然身につかないです。だからもう漢字を読み書き出来るのが、出来るようになるのは、 これは一苦労あった。小学校の5年から行ったんですけどその頃は(?)が難しくて凄い好き勝手してました。割と意味の分からない、そんなに分からなかったけど耳に凍り付いて今でも覚えてるのが 古文をやるんですよ、盛んにね。高校になって習ったその、いわゆる、付き合い、言い回しなんかを古文で色々 Roy recites a section from a song or poem 色々なんか八幡太郎 義家の (?)その古文(?)。(?)とか全然分からなかったですね。
It was. I struggled because I didn’t know Chinese characters. The Japanese Language School in Slocan wasn’t able to have us master reading and writing at all. So it was one big challenge for me to be able to read and write Chinese characters. I entered grade five, but I (?) because (?) was difficult. What I didn’t understand much but is still stuck in my ears was Classic Japanese. There were many Classic Japanese classes. Various expressions of classic Japanese I learned for the first time after I entered high school... Roy recites a section from a song or poem Those things, such as (?) of Hachimantaro Yoshiie, (?) of classic Japanese. I didn’t understand things like (?) at all.
TK
長くなるからちょっとあれなんですけどちょっと急いでお聞きしたい事だけで、ロイさんは学校終わりになって、米軍ですか日本の自衛隊ですか。
I don’t want to take up your time, so I will quickly ask what I wanted to ask you. After you finished schooling, Roy, did you go to the US Army or Japanese Self-Defense Forces?
UU
日本の学校8年行きまして。高校卒業しましてからね、近くの米空軍基地があったんですよ。(海軍?)基地です。そこに行って(?)。そこでちょっと。日本の学校に8年行った為に今度は英語が衰えたんです。 しゃべるのがね。
I went to school in Japan for eight years. After graduating from high school, ...there was a US military base nearby. That was a (Navy?) base. I went there and (?) for a while there. Because I went to school in Japan for eight years, now my English deteriorated. My English speaking.
TK
日本に来てから8年も行きましたか。
You went school in Japan for as long as eight years.
UU
’46年から Roy thinks about which year he attended school until. ‘54年まで。小学校、中学校、高校と。それで今度はあの、英語の読み書きはね、読むのは駐留軍、 うちの姉が働いてる駐留軍から雑誌なんか持っ帰れるし。日本で習う英語の方が難しかった。日本の英語の教科書もあるし。そして聞くのは英語の放送局、軍の放送局がありまして。 そんなん聞いておりましたね。それでラジオを聞いたり。話す...田舎の事ですから、話す機会がなくて。高校卒業した頃私、不自然な英語話してましたね。
From 1946 Roy thinks about which year he attended school until. to 1954. Elementary, junior-high, and high schools. And now, as for reading and writing in English, ... about reading, because my older sister was working for the Occupational Army, she brought home some magazines. Learning English in Japanese was more difficult. I also had English textbooks from schools in Japan. About listening, there were English broadcast stations, the military broadcast stations. I listened to those. I listened to those radios. About speaking... because I was in countryside, I didn’t have many chances to speak. When I graduated from high school, my speaking English was unnatural.
TK
ああ、そうですか。
Oh, was it?
UU
(?)を忘れてるわけですよ。だから意味は成り立つ英語話しても普通言わない言い方をするわけですよね。言い方、(?)、発音はかろうじて保ってたね。こっちに若い時、子供の時いたから発音は 良かったんですよ。言い回しなんかはね、おかしな...米軍の基地に3年ちょっと勤めて挽回しましたよね。
Because I forgot (?). So when I spoke English, it made sense, but I used the wording that were not commonly used. Wording, (?). I somehow managed to maintain the pronunciation, though. Because I was here when I was young, when I was a child, my pronunciation was good. But the phrases I used were weird... while I worked at the US Army base for over three years, I was able to make up for the lack of my knowledge.
01:22:37.000
01:22:37.000
TK
米軍の基地ではどんな事を?
What did you do in the US Army base?
UU
最初の六ヵ月は調査官っていういわゆる諜報っちゅうか、アメリカの軍隊に(?)それぞれ探偵所みたいな所があるんですね。そこで皆位は言わなくてMisterで私服着た(?)。 そういう所に六ヵ月、そこで通訳兼色々な事をやって。そこからそれ六ヵ月やって、その後は基地の教育訓練会に行きまして。航空自衛隊の訓練が始まったんですよ。そこに(?)言われましたね。 航空自衛隊が1955年ぐらい...そこに行って航空自衛隊の訓練に携わったんです。それは訓練(?)で、搭乗員以外の、例えば車両整備士とか補給係とか(?)とかパイロット以外の訓練です。 パイロットの訓練、これは全然違う(?)だったんです。地上訓練。とにかく、そこでちょっと...通訳もしたしそれから訓練、まあ、基地のあちこちでやってますでしょ。そこを見て回ったりそこと いつも連絡を取り合って問題が起きたら問題をどうすれば解決するかとかそういうような事をコーディネーターって言うんですかね。Monitorって言うんですか。そういう事をちょっとやってた。 それで’57年までやって。で、’58年の5月にバンクーバーに帰って来たんです。まだその年々カナダに帰る事が流行ってたんですね。 Roy talks with a bit of amusement. 私もその波に乗ったわけですよね。
In the first six months, I worked for the investigators, or Intelligence Service, of the US Army (?). There was a place like a detective agency. There, they didn’t call each other by their ranks but used mister, and they were all in plain clothes (?). I worked as an interpreter as well as doing many different things for six months there. I did that for six months and then joined the training at the base. The training for the Air Self-Defense Forces started. I was told to (?) there. In around 1955, the Air Self-Defense Forces... I went there and was involved in the training of the Air Self-Defense Forces. It was the training (?), and the training for those other than crew members. For example, mechanics, fuelers, ... those other than pilots. The training for pilots was completely different (?). The ground training. Anyway, I did interpretation and also visited the training sites, which were everywhere in the base, to communicate with them and to discuss how to solve problems when they occurred. Is it called a coordinator? Or monitor? I did that for a while. I did that until 1957 and came back to Vancouver in May 1958. There was a boom of going back to Canada at that time. Roy talks with a bit of amusement. I rode the boom.
TK
だけどカナダに戻るっていうのはやっぱり戻りたかったんですか?
Did you want to come back to Canada after all?
UU
これは戻りたいという気はあったんです。だけど差別待遇にあわせんかっていう不安はあったですね。
I wanted to come back but was worried that I might face discrimination.
TK
それからその頃はやっぱりね、戻って来たけども旅費が無くて大変だったって言う人も多かったですね。
And many people said that they had hard time because they didn’t have enough money for travel expenses at that time.
UU
多かったね。私はね、こっちの兄貴に頼んだ事もあるんですけど、兄貴に、次男坊に頼んだんですけど Roy corrects himself あー、三男坊。兄貴は(?)したり経済状態が悪かったからね。 そういう、学生の時頼んだけど。私は一つこれは良くない手段だけどカナダの軍隊に入ってね、こっちに帰って来ようかと思った事あるんですよ。だけど私が高校を出た頃はね、朝鮮動乱の頃はね、 現地で、日本でカナダの二世どんどん Tatsuo talks over Roy. ...
That’s right. I have once asked my brother here, my brother, the second brother Roy corrects himself Oh, the third brother. But he was (?) and wasn’t doing well financially. I asked him like that when I was a student. Also, one time, I was thinking of joining the Canadian Army to come back here although it was not a good idea. But by the time when I graduated from high school, around the time of Korean War, Canadian Nisei there, in Japan, were (coming back) one by one Tatsuo talks over Roy. ...
TK
ええ、そうらしいですね。
Yes, I’ve heard that too.
UU
私はその時まだ高校に行ってましたからね。私高校卒業してからね、東京のカナダ軍のmissionっていうか役所があったからそこに行って(手紙?)を書いて。そこに志願したいって。そしたら 「あんたの熱意は非常に感謝するけど今の(方針?)はもう日本では入隊出来ない、受け付けてないからカナダに一旦戻って行かないと。いつでも歓迎します。」って。 Roy laughs.
I was still in high school at that time. After I graduated, there was a mission, or an office, of the Canadian Army in Tokyo, so I wrote a letter to them, telling them that I would like to join them. Then they gave me a reply, We appreciate your enthusiasm very much, but the current (policy?) doesn’t allow anybody in Japan to join us, and we don’t accept any more applications, so you need to go back to Canada first. You will be welcome any time. Roy laughs.
TK
そうすると朝鮮戦争のにわかの時はもうそういう事はね。
So, during the Korean War, they recruited...
UU
あれが(?)っちゅうかあれが(?)時はもう(?)ですからね。一人でも多く兵隊がおった方がいいから。特に東洋の事は勝手が分かってる人間の方がいいからどんどん、大手を広げて歓迎してくれたわけですよ。 だから日本で入隊した人、二世なんていますね。
That (?), or when (?). They wanted as many soldiers as possible. Because they especially prefer those who knew about East Asia, those people were all welcome. So there were Nisei who joined the Canadian Army from Japan.
TK
いるみたいですね。
It looks like there were.
UU
だけど私の場合は高校卒業した後に行って朝鮮動乱も終わってたから。折角の熱意だけを Both Roy and Tatsuo laughs. それか高校卒業する間際ぐらいだったかな。ちょっとそこ覚えてないですけど。 とにかくアメリカの軍で働いたお陰で私の同輩の大学生の給料より良かったですね。駐留軍で。そこで働いて、食べて、(?)その、外務省が許すだけのいくらか小遣いっちゅうかその、 非常時用の...それでも200ドルいってなかったですけどいわゆる、費用です。
But in my case, by the time when I graduated from high school, the Korean Was had already ended. I had great enthusiasm, though. Too bad. Both Roy and Tatsuo laughs. Or it might have been right before I graduated from high school. I don’t remember exactly. Anyway, because I worked for the US Army, I earned more than Japanese university graduates. At the Occupational Army. I worked there, ate there, and (?) some pocket money the Ministry of Foreign Affairs allowed us, for emergency. It was less than 200 dollars but was so-called an expense.
01:27:42.000
01:27:42.000
UU
そういうのを換算する(?)が。
There was (?) to exchange those.
TK
お父さんはその頃は、ロイさんがカナダに戻って来る事について...
At that time, about you coming back to Canada, did you father...
UU
もう引退してました。こっち来る時は82歳。
He had already retired. When he came here, he was eighty-two.
TK
そんな歳だったんですね。 Tatsuo sounds a bit surprised. カナダにはそうするとその頃お兄さん、お姉さんいらしたわけですか?
Oh, he had already been that age. Tatsuo sounds a bit surprised. Then at that time, were your brothers and sisters in Canada?
UU
兄貴が二人。その時は二人共モントリオールにおったんですけど。’68年に長男はトロントの方に。その時は二人はモントリオールにおりました。それで私は一年前に今リッチモンドに引っ越した 姉がバンクーバーに先に戻って来てたんですよ。で、色々な情報を手紙で知らせてくれて。だから、姉は’57年の春にこっち来て、私は一年後の’58年の春に来たんです。とにかくカナダに、 何て言うか、とにかく私が軍に勤めていた時ボスのSimonが同じ(?)兵隊になったらアメリカに行こうかって。(?)行かしてもらいましょう。カナダの僕は苦い経験があるからね。 何もカナダに戻って行く必要は無いって思って。お願いしますって。アメリカの国籍とったらいいんじゃないかって。お願いしますって。彼がアメリカの大使館に東京に行ったついでに聞いてくれたんです。 そしたらアメリカの移民はっ国籍で出すんじゃなくて寄付でやるからカナダの市民権を持ってるだろうけど人種は黄色人種だから(?)その枠があるから今日本の若者が3万人近くまでアメリカの大使館に アメリカに移住を願ってるからそれのリストに加えてもらったんですよ。それでお金貯めてから。
Two brothers. At that time, both of them were in Montreal, but the oldest brother moved to Toronto in 1968. At that time, both of them were in Montreal . Then a year before I did, my older sister who is in Richmond now came back to Vancouver . She wrote to me and let me know a lot of information. So she came here in the spring of 1957, and I came here in the spring of 1958, a year later. Anyway, to Canada, ...how should I say it? Anyway, Simon, my boss when I was working for the Army, invited me to go to the US together once (?) (the same?) Army. (?) Let’s me join you. Because I have bad experience in Canada, I thought I didn’t have to go back to Canada. So I asked him to let me join him. I thought I should get the US citizenship. So I told him Please. When he had a chance to visit the US embassy in Tokyo , he also asked about it for me. Then they said that they made decisions not based on our citizenship but on donations. Even though I had Canadian citizenship, because I was the yellow race, (?). There was a special category, and almost thirty thousand young Japanese had applied for the immigration to the US at the US embassy. So I asked them to add me on the list. Then I save money.
TK
あの、あれですか、国籍をですね、カナダから日本へ送還された時に国籍を一応その...カナダ国籍はなくなってるって言う風に政府の方は言っているわけですね。それの...
Um, was that... Your Canadian citizenship... The government said that those who were repatriated from Canada to Japan lost their Canadian citizenship at that time. That...
UU
またこれ流行ったんですね。私は’52年の春に高校の修学旅行に行ったついでにカナダ大使館に寄って行きまして。で、それを書いて来たんです。で、(?)証明書を。なんか表えんじで裏が草色のあれを 貰って来たんですよ。あれは流行ってたんですね、あの頃。皆(?)。
That was another trend. During my high school trip in the spring of 1952, I dropped by the Canadian embassy. And I wrote it. Then (?) certificate. I got that thing, that was dark red on the front and dark green on the back. It was a trend at that time. Everyone (?).
TK
ああ、そうですか。その時はだけどもカナダ生まれの証明書は勿論持って...?
Oh, I see. But you of course had your Canadian birth certificate...
UU
持ってます。出生証明書。それでサインしたんです、確か。(?)出すとか言って。で、回復して。’58年頃はやっぱりまだ大分人種差別とかありましたよね。二つ大きな人種差別のケースがあって。 一つはチャイニーズのカップルで教師しておる人で、先生してる人でアパート、部屋を取ろうとたら明らかな人種差別のあれで取れなかったんですよ。それであの頃人権擁護の、 human rightsなんかあったんですよとにかく。それに届け出て新聞の表記事で騒いでたんですよ。もう一つはシークの人がどっか白人の地区に家買って住もうとしたらその地区の 人間が猛烈に反対してそれがまた表の記事一面になって騒ぎになって。そんなんで、私の就職ある人に頼んで、ある白人のlawyerに頼んだらそのlawyerが unclear phrase Yellow Raceに対する枠はこれだけしかないから残念ながら見込みが無いって。はっきり。 Pause.
I did. The birth certificate. I brought it and signed, I think. They said (?), and I was given back my citizenship. Around 1958, there was still a lot of racial discrimination, wasn’t there? There were two big cases of racial discrimination. One was about a Chinese couple who were teachers. They were teachers, and when they tried to rent an apartment, they were rejected because of their race. There was human rights or something, protecting human rights, at that time. The couple reported to them, it became a front-page story on the newspaper. Another case was about a Sikh or somebody who tried to buy a house in the Caucasian neighbourhood. Those in the neighbourhood fiercely opposed, and that too became a front-page story. Similarly, when I asked somebody to refer me to a job, ... I asked a Caucasian lawyer, then the lawyer said that unclear phrase because the limit of number of yellow race they hired was just this, there was unfortunately no chance. He firmly said so. Pause.
TK
In a quiet voice. そうですか。
In a quiet voice. I see.
UU
あの頃から見ると今は天国みたいですけどね。 Pause.
Thinking back about that time, it feels like we are in the heaven now.
TK
いや、どうも色々お話、沢山...それから私も何人もお話聞いたけどもロイさん色々よく覚えてますね。 Tatsuo laughs after Roy says something to him quietly. いやいや、初めて聞いた事も随分あります。
Well, thank you for talking about many things. I interviewed many people, but you remember very well, Roy. Tatsuo laughs after Roy says something to him quietly. Oh, no. There were many things I had never heard about before.
01:32:42.000
01:32:42.000
TK
どうもありがとうございました。
Thank you very much.
UU
いいえ。
You are welcome.
TK
すみませんこれで今日の所は。またちょっと unstable audio 戻ってからのアジャストメントなんていうようなね、話を、詳しい事をまた改めてお聞きするかもしれません。
Let’s call it a day for now today. I might... unstable audio after I go back, I might come back to interview you for more details, or for adjustments.
UU
まあ、いや、逆に私のつまらない話で役に立つようでしたら...
Well, if my boring story helps you...
TK
いや、中々面白かったですよ。それでこれテープをですねまだしばらく、すぐには出来ませんけど、いずれは歴史放送委員会の方にいずれは提供したいと思うんですけど...
Oh, no, it was interesting. And this tape... I don’t think I will be able to finish it soon, but I’m thinking of eventually offering it to the historical broadcasting committee...
UU
なんかサインする所あるんですか?
Is there anything I have to sign?
TK
いや、これ使い方ですけどね、サインしておいていただければ一般に公開しないとかそういう条件つけて...どうしましょうか。何かrestriction Sound of shuffling items around 特別に何かご希望があればですね。
Well, this is about the use. It would be great if you could sign with conditions, for example, not releasing to the public, and so on. What would you like to do with it? Are there any restrictions Sound of shuffling items around you would like to add?
UU
うーん、特別な希望ってね...大した事ないですね。
Um, I don’t have anything special.
TK
じゃあその将来的にはopen to the publicでいいですか?
Then, for the future, would it be okay to make it open to the public?
UU
そうですね。大した、それほどの秘密なんかないですし。
Sure. There is nothing confidential.
TK
どうもありがとうございました。 END OF SIDE 2
Thank you very much. END OF SIDE 2
01:34:22.000

Metadata

Title

Roy Umeo Uyeda, interviewed by Tatsuo Kage, 15 February 1991

Abstract

Roy Uyeda describes his life in Slocan after being forcibly removed from his family home in Vancouver . He says he experienced discrimination at school for being Japanese but did not have to worry about being discriminated against in Slocan because there were only Japanese people around. He describes the different size and location of the different internment camps in and around the Slocan Valley . Roy explains to Tatsuo how people had to get permits to visit other camps in the surrounding areas. He also describes the logging camps the adults worked in and how school teachers initially consisted of recent highschool graduates. Unlike kids, adults were not allowed to fish. Roy says therefore, adults would secretly fish in a valley farther away and come back after dark with backpacks full of trout. Side 2: Roy describes to Tatsuo that aboard the ship to Japan in 1946 were Japanese Peruvians who were also being exiled to Japan . He recalls how they communicated with partial Japanese as he didn’t know any Spanish and they didn’t know any English. Upon arriving in Japan he describes how support groups organized by university students were extremely helpful in helping them find how to get to their final destination in Japan from Kurihama . Not only did they board the train with them to a prefecture close to their final destination, they also gave advice such as be aware of pickpockets on the train. His family learnt the second oldest brother died during the war only after reaching their father’s parents home. Roy describes how he had difficulties adjusting to the school in Japan.
This oral history is from the Nikkei National Museum and Cultural Centre's Kage Collection. Accession No. 2021-7-1-1-3. It describes the experience of exile.

Credits

Interviewer: Tatsuo Kage
Interviewee: Roy Umeo Uyeda
Transcriber: Sakura Taji
Translator: Keiko Kaneko
Audio Checker: Sakura Taji
XML Encoder: Sakura Taji
Publication Information: See Terms of Use for publication and licensing information.
Setting: Vancouver, B.C., Canada

Terminology

Readers of these historical materials will encounter derogatory references to Japanese Canadians and euphemisms used to obscure the intent and impacts of the internment and dispossession. While these are important realities of the history, the Landscapes of Injustice Research Collective urges users to carefully consider their own terminological choices in writing and speaking about this topic today as we confront past injustice. See our statement on terminology, and related sources here.