Hiroshi Fudge Fujino, interviewed by Tatsuo Kage, 01 January 1991
Abstract
Fudge Fujino
is the oldest son out of five brothers and one sister. Before the war his father ran
a Grocery store on Granville Street. After the war
started they were forcibly removed to
Lemon Creek
while their father was sent to a road camp. Fudge was against going to war-torn
Japan
but his parents decided to go back as they were worried about their family. As the
oldest son, Fudge felt there was no choice but to
follow his parents. Once arriving in Japan, Fudge worked for the Occupational Forces
where there was a high demand for bilingual people.
He then describes the hardships he faced, including food shortages. They then discuss
upcoming reunions and redress.
Tatsuo describes that approximately 1200 redress applications were received from Japan.
However, there was no information on who from
the list of redress applications were from Japan. Therefore when he hosted events
in 1989 in Japan to spread the word of redress,
he asked attendees to provide their contact information. This list was made with the
intent of being a record of the Japanese Canadian
population in Japan.
This oral history is from the Nikkei National Museum and Cultural Centre's Kage Collection. Accession No. 2021-7-1-1-3. It describes the experience of exile.
00:00:00.000
Tatsuo Kage (TK)
えっと、その井手さんなんかがおつくりになったものからですと、’27年生まれですか？
Um... According to what
Mr. Ide
and other people created, you were born in 1927?
HF
バンクーバーです。そうです。で、うちは親父がgrocery storeをやっていましたからね。
From Vancouver, yes. And my father had a grocery store.
HF
Granvilleと7th Avenue。だから日本人は非常に少なかったわね。
At Granville and 7th Avenue. So there were very few Japanese.
TK
それで
short pause
戦争が始まった頃、ご兄弟は一緒におられたのですか？
And
short pause
when the war started, were you with your siblings?
TK
ああ、そうですか。
Short pause.
それで戦争が始まった時に結局インターメントはレモンクリークに？
Oh, I see.
Short pause.
And when the war started, did you go to the
Lemon Creek
Internment Camp?
HF
同じですね。はい。親父はfirst generationだから一時皆強制疎開されましたね。
With them. Yes. My father was the first generation, and they were all forcibly evacuated
for a while.
HF
えっと、それで今度はfamilyと一緒に、なんて言うんですか、内地へ入るような事になって。一緒に今度はね。
Um, and then, he joined his family this time, and we went to... what do you call it...
the interior. All of us together this time.
TK
それで、あの、レモンクリークの時代にですね、1944年ぐらいから、まあ、’45年ぐらい、戦争が終わった時にかけて、日本に帰るかっていうのも、
イーストの方に行くかっていう...
Then, um, when you were in Lemon Creek, from around 1944 to around 1945, when the
war ended, you were asked whether to go back to
Japan
or to go to the east...
HF
それじゃなくて、僕はね、結局僕らの年齢は丁度、危険人物っていう年齢になるわけだから、まあ、東に行くか、行かないんだったら、
西におる場合は、いわゆる、戦争産業に勤めろと。
I didn’t do that. Because we fell under the age group of dangerous people, we were
told to go to the east or otherwise to work in the
so-called war industries if we stayed in the west.
HF
で、山仕事をして。Lumber Campでね。で、それが終わってから友達も沢山いたもんだから、それは面白くないから Canadian Pacific Railwayでね、
勤めたことがある。それで road campに。んで、それを行っている間に戦争終わりましたですからね。それであの、
Hiroshi coughs a couple times
戦争終わると同時に、まあ、(?)の希望者は、ね、日本に帰ってもええと。で、うちはもう(?)に意外と多いものだから。で、兄弟も心配だという事で親父、
お袋は日本に帰りましょうって、日本に行きましょうって。大分色々と親には忠告したんだけど。まあ、どうしても帰りたいという事で。
I worked in the mountain. At a lumber camp. And after that, because I had many friends,
and I didn’t enjoy the job, I have once worked
at the
Canadian Pacific Railway
too. Then, I went to a road camp. And while I was working there, the war ended. And
then,
Hiroshi coughs a couple times
as soon as the war ended, we were told that if we wished (?), we could go back to
Japan. And because my family had quite a lot of (?)
and my father and mother were worried about their siblings, they decided to go back
to Japan. Let’s go to Japan. I warned them a lot,
but they insisted.
HF
僕は日本に行ったってしょうがないだろうと。戦争でこれだけの被害を、damageを受けてるわけだから。全て不安定な状況だからちょっとは言ったんだけど、
いや、それとは別で心配だと。じゃあ行きますか、という事で。
I thought it was not worth going to Japan because Japan got so much damage from the
war. I told them that everything was insecure there,
but they said, aside from that, they were worried. So we decided to go.
HF
00:05:00.000
やっぱりそれが左右したのかもしれんね。そうですね、まだ若いくせにね。そんなにまで親が言っているんだったら、もう長男だししょうがないだろうと。
他の連中は若いからね。まだ良し悪しってのが分からないし。
It might have been because of that. Yes. It’s funny I was still such a young man but
made a decision like that. My parents insisted it so much
that I, as the oldest son, couldn’t help but following them. Because my siblings were
still young, they didn’t know what was right or wrong.
00:05:00.000
HF
ええ、親戚もいたもんだから。それでまあ、軍関係の...どうしても日本語と英語ができる連中がやっぱり必要ですよね。で、（そういう意味で行って？）。
軍司令部を通じて仕事があって。それでずっとその仕事をやってるとやっぱりあの、なんて言うか、同じ二世の場合でもアメリカの場合とカナダの場合では
ちょっと処遇が違いますからね。待遇が。だからpriorityあるのもAmerican niseisでしょ。Canadian niseiの場合は、例えば、ある一定の年齢に入りますとね、
軍はそれ以上使えないとか色々ありましたもんね。その間、日本の会社にも勤めた事もあります。
Yes, because I had my relatives there. And an Army job... they needed those who could
speak both English and Japanese. (In that sense, I...?).
I got a job through the Army headquarters. While I was doing the job, um, how should
I say it..., even though we were all Nisei, those who were
from the US and those from Canada were treated differently. The compensation. So the
priority was American Nisei. In the case of Canadian Nisei,
there were rules that, for example, once we reached a certain age, the Army couldn’t
employ us anymore, and so on. I have worked in a
Japanese company too during the time.
HF
ええ、貿易商社に勤めてて。それでまた軍に帰ってからもう一年ちょっとしてから、ああ、これはもうね、これ以上続けたって将来性も何も無いしっていう事を持って
やっぱり(?)で仕事を紹介していただいてこの保険の道に入ったわけです。まあ、結婚したのも一つのきっかけですから。ね？なんて言うんですか。
進駐軍で働いていると非常に不安定な生活って言うんですか。考えなければありません。
Yes, I worked at a trading company. Then I went back to the Army and worked there
for over one year. And I thought that, even though I continued
working there, there would be no future. Then I was referred for a job by (?) and
entered the insurance business. Well, another reason was
because I got married. You see? How should I say it? If I had kept working at the
Occupational Army
, my life would’ve continued to be very insecure. I had to think about it.
TK
(?)とですね、その時期に、私が皆さんにお話をお伺いする時にお聞きするのが日本にrepatriateされた皆さんはどういう苦労をしているかという質問をするんですよね。
(?) When I interview everyone, I always ask those who repatriated to Japan what difficulties
they had at that time.
TK
だからカナダにずっといらっしゃった人に比べると何が大変だったのか。それで、まああの、ジョージ中野さんなんかはともかく食糧事情が(?)だったと。
これはカナダにいたらそんなに...
So, comparing to those who stayed in Canada, what king of things they found difficult.
And for example, George Nakano said that the food situation
was especially (?). If he had stayed in Canada, he wouldn’t have experience much of
it...
HF
それはもう歴然としていましたね。食料の事情というのは。いわゆるジャガイモと（さわ？）とか。殆ど何も無かった。本当に何も無かったですね。
だからそれからすれば、まあ、例えばroast turkeyだ roast chickenだなんだかんだとそういうのは夢のまた夢でしょ。チョコレートキャンディ、ミルクシェイク、
それも一切何にも無いですからね。あったのは米と、芋と野菜。肉は殆どありません。紙もない。マッチもない。何にも無かった時代ですから。まっ、それはまあ、
今から考えたらいい経験というか、ね？物の無い場合でも物の豊かさっていうのをすごく、その価値観っていうのをやっぱり見直しますわね。砂糖、塩、コショウ、
そういうような物とて、なんて言うんですかね。まあ、マッチ一本でもそうですね。煙草にしても、何にしても、物が自由に何も考える事なく金さえ出せば買える物と...
That was obvious. The food situation. For example, potatoes, (sawa?), and so on. There
was almost nothing. There was really nothing.
So, thinking of such a situation, for example, roast turkey, roast chicken and so
on were literally pie in the sky. Chocolate candies,
milk shakes, ... there was nothing like those at all. No paper. No matches. We didn’t
have anything at that time. Well, retrospectively,
it might have been a good experience. You see? Even when we didn’t have anything,
... that made me rethink on materialistic abundance,
my sense of value. Even things like sugar, salt, pepper, ... how should I say this?
... even a stick of match, or cigarettes,
... whatever things we can freely get without worrying about anything as far as we
pay money, and ...
HF
00:10:00.000
金を出しても買えない。これはやっぱり、まあなんて言うんですか。買える事自体
Fudge gives a small laugh
やっぱりね、大きな価値観っていうものが得られるでしょうね。だから今の若い連中はなんでも物が自由に入るとね、まあ、贅沢というか、まあ、
甘さがあるかもしれないね。そういう事からして。やっぱり人間っていうのはそういう意味において色んな事を苦労しないとやっぱり対生しないというか、
いい加減になるというかそういう事が言えるんじゃないかと思いますね。それで僕は色んな意味において苦労したというか。もう本当に色んな物資も全ての物、
まあ、衣服一つにしても中々手に入らない。食べることだって。衣食住ですから。基本となるものが全て思うようになりませんよね。そういう事から考えるとやっぱり...
Long pause.
... and the things we can’t buy with money. This is... how should I say this? To be
able to buy things, that itself ...
Fudge gives a small laugh
After all, (in such a situation,) we learn a significant sense of value. So, because
your people now can get anything freely,
they are used to luxurious lives or maybe are more or less naïve, thinking of that.
I don’t think that people can be successful
without going through various hardships in that sense. I think that, otherwise, they
would only be halfhearted. I experienced hardships in
various aspects. I had hard time getting various supplies and anything, even a piece
of clothing. Even foods. Anything necessary for our
daily lives. I wasn’t able to fulfill any of my basic needs as I wished. Thinking
of that...
00:10:00.000
TK
それは確かに（不幸？）なんですが今はその様な事は当時日本にいた人は全て経験...
That was certainly (unfortunate?), but everyone who was in Japan at that time all
experienced it...
TK
えー、そこでもう一つお伺いたいのは、カナダから日本へ(ほきょう?)された後の事で例えば言葉の問題とか。
`
Um, another thing I would like to ask you about is, for example, a language issue
after you (went back?) from Canada to Japan.
HF
そうね。まあ、幸いにね、僕は日本語学校に行ってたもんだから。たとえ片言であろうとやっぱり通じますわね。全然知らない連中とは...まあ、
最初来ました時は割と日本語分かる人からしたら酷かったらしいけど。なんせ野球の放送が分からなかったくらいですから。あんまり早すぎて。
ただ、僕自身は運動が好きで、野球が好きで。
Fudge asks a server for one more serving of something.
だから、いわゆる、日本語をさらに磨くっていう事については野球ですね、baseball。好きだから。意外と、なんて言うの？理解っていうのは早かったです。
読むことじしんでもやっぱり学校行ってたおかげですよね。若い時自分ではあまり理解していなかったつもりのものがやはり大人になって実際にそういう環境にね、
さらされてみると、まあ、言葉っていうものは繋いでいくわけですから。意外と、なんて言うのですか、分かりやすかったし、そんなになんて言うのですかね...
Fudge mumbles: 「僕は逆にそうですね」
(?)なかったね、意外とね。僕は単純かもしれないけど。ただ、language difficultiesの(?)はね、やっぱり使うか使わないかだけの問題ですからね。
Well, fortunately, I went to a Japanese Language School. Even though my Japanese was
broken, people still understood. Comparing with those who
didn’t understand Japanese at all, .... Well, those who understood Japanese well told
me that my Japanese was terrible when I first came, though.
I didn’t even understand the baseball broadcasts. It was too fast for me. But I liked
sports, especially baseball.
Fudge asks a server for one more serving of something.
So if you ask me what brushed up my Japanese, it was baseball. Because I liked it.
Actually, ...what do you call it? My comprehension
improved more quickly than I expected. In terms of reading itself too, what I learned
in the Japanese Language School helped me.
Even the things I didn’t quite understand when I was young... After growing up and
actually being in such an environment, ...
Because the language is to connect things, it was easier to understand than I thought.
And how should I say it...
Fudge mumbles: For me, yes, on the contrary
(?), which I didn’t expect. I might be just simple-minded, though. But as for (?)
of language difficulties, it’s just the matter of whether
you use it or not.
TK
そうしますと駐留軍に、アメリカ軍にお勤めの頃は勿論英語をお使いになった？
Then when you were in the US Army, the
Occupational Army
, you of course spoke English?
TK
それから保険の仕事をされるようになってからは、むしろ英語より日本語の方を余分に使って...
And once you started the insurance job, you spoke Japanese more often than English...
HF
ええ、そうです、そうです。
Short pause.
もう、日本語が出来なければ。全てが日本語ですから。
Short pause.
まあもう。こんなにね、長く住んでおりますとね、そんなに不自由もないですけども。ただ一つの事にいわゆる、自分自身がね、その人、その仕事とかexposureって
いうのがあるっていうのはやっぱり歳の移り変わりを持って自然と自分のそれなりの能力というか、まあ、理解と言いますかね。ただ言える事はね、鹿毛さんね、
Japanese language schoolへ行ったってのは非常に大きかった。
Yes. Yes.
Short pause.
I had to speak Japanese. Because everything was done in Japanese.
Short pause.
Well, because I have been living here for a long time, I don’t have many difficulties
anymore, though. But one thing is that, once you do
your job or have exposure to it, as time goes by, your ability or understanding, to
some extent, naturally... What I can say is, Mr. Kage,
that having gone to the Japanese Language School made a very big difference.
HF
僕は勉強嫌いでね。よく佐藤先生に怒られたー。校長先生に。
I didn’t like studying and often got reprimanded by
Mr. Sato
. The principal.
HF
ええ、ハイスクール、はい。
Tatsuo speaks to a server a little bit.
あの、松葉と同じ。松葉タケシと。そうそう、Tak Matsubaと。
Yes, high school. Yes.
Tatsuo speaks to a server a little bit.
Together with Matsuba.
Takeshi Matsuba
. Yes, Tak Matsuba.
HF
そう。
Fudge laughs before pausing for a moment.
昨日話してました。
Yes.
Fudge laughs before pausing for a moment.
I talked with/about him yesterday.
HF
00:15:02.000
ああ。僕は来年辺りにまた行きたいなと思って。鹿毛さん、ずっとVancouverにいらっしゃるの？Wifeも連れて行きますよ。
Yeah. I’m thinking of visiting there again around next year. Will you be in
Vancouver
all the time, Mr. Kage? I’m taking my wife too.
00:15:02.000
TK
前回来ましたのは、一つは日系人の大きな会議が来年の十月にあるんですよ。
One of the reasons why I came here last time was because there will be a big Japanese
Canadian conference in October next year.
TK
えっと、十日前後です。九、十、十一日。それで、それのお誘いに。
Um, around the 10th. On the 9th, 10th, and 11th. So I wanted to invite you.
TK
ちょうど50年、戦争の、その、収容が始まって50年ですから。それを記念して、まあ、Home Comingっていう...
Because it’s exactly the 50th anniversary of the war... um, 50 years since the internment
started. Commemorating it, ...
something like homecoming.
TK
それであの、特に井手さんにはrepatriationのpanel discussionをやるのでそれに参加してほしいと。彼とそれからマージ池部さんにも頼んで（います？）。
そんな事までありますので是非そのお時間においでいただけたらと。
And there will be a panel discussion on repatriation, so I’m asking especially
Mr. Ide
to join us. I’m also asking
Marge Ikebe
to join. We are going to do that too, so I really hope you can come at that time.
HF
いや、だけどね、社長の仕事はね、若い連中に任せて今度Chaimanくらいになって気楽にやってみようかなって。
Short pause.
一応言ってるんです。うちのManagementにね。来年僕はもうChairmanやるからなんだかんだ、グダグダ言ってるんだけれど。だけどやっぱり後進に道を譲るって
のは非常に大切な事ですからね。まあ、現役でバリバリでいつまでもやってると疲れるから。
Short pause.
Takも出るでしょ、彼は。
No, but I’m thinking of handing over the president position to a young person and
of being a chairman or something to work in a more
relaxing pace.
Short pause.
I’m talking about it to our management. I’m telling them that I’m going to be a chairman
and so on. After all, it’s very important
to make way for young people. And it’s tiring to keep working with full energy without
retiring.
Short pause.
Tak is coming too, isn’t he?
TK
ええ、お話はしてあります。まあ、ともかく皆さんに来てくださいって。
Short pause.
Yes, I let him know about it. Well, I’m asking everyone to come.
TK
えー、ただですね、リユニオンの部分については皆さんそれぞれグループの方が集まっていただいて何かしていただくんですけど。
その会議の全体の催しとしましては、今申しましたrepatriationのディスカッションとか。あとはインターメントの時期の...
Mass Evacutation Groupっていうのは二世の人で、結局、移動に反対したというか抵抗したグループの事なんですけど。そんな人達の事を、まあ、話し合いをするとか。
これからインターメント時代...
Um, in the reunion part, we are planning to ask everyone to gather in groups and do
something. As for the events during the entire
conference, we will have a discussion on repatriation as I mentioned. And the
Mass Evacuation Group
, who were the Nisei who resisted the relocation during the internment era. We are
discussing about those people too.
The internment era...
HF
特に二十歳代の連中が多いでしょうね。二十五、六。まだ我々がガキだったから。あんまり自分の考えとか無かったもんで。ただこう、ついて行った感じで。
I imagine that the majority of them were in their twenties. Twenty-five or -six. Because
we were still kids and didn’t have our own
opinions, and so on. We just followed...
TK
それからあと、インターメント時代の学校というか教育ですね。その頃先生...インターメントキャンプで先生をしていた方がまだ生きてらっしゃる方がいますから。
そういったような話を...
And the schools, or education, during the internment era. Teachers at that time...
some of those who were teaching in internment camps
are still alive, so we will talk about it too...
TK
そんな話を。それが歴史的な部分で。あとその、日系のシニアのケアをどうするかというような。
We are going to talk about those. Those are the historical part. And we will also
discuss how we are going to take care of Nikkei
seniors.
HF
00:20:03.000
あれはもうカナダの社会補強の問題に絡んでくるでしょうね。
Long pause.
It must be something related to Canadian social security issue.
Long pause.
00:20:03.000
TK
(?)なり、プロビンスなり、ある程度の事はやっても。例えばそのメインストリームの、白人の老人ホームに日本人のお年寄りが入ったらハッピーかどうか。
そういう、特に一世の方の場合ですと言葉も分からないし食べる物も問題が。それから二世の方は、若い二世でもまだそんな歳になっていない方は
「いやぁ、私は白人と一緒で全然構わない。習慣も食べる物も言葉も別に何も不自由ない」。ところがだんだん年を取るとね、そうはいかなくなってくるんですよね。
Even though (?) or the province does some work,... for example, will Nikkei seniors
be happy if they live in a mainstream Caucasian
senior home? Especially Issei won’t understand the language and will have problems
with food too. In the case of Nisei,
young people who haven’t reached the age tend to say I don’t mind living with Caucasians.
I have no problems with their custom,
food, or language at all. But as they are aging, they are going to change.
TK
だから、そういういわば本音と建前です。そんな事も多分(?)にあります。
So they have both of those public stance and true feelings. That kind of this is quite
(?) too.
HF
ははぁ...だから今あれでしょredressでもってある程度のfundでもって例えばその、senioe citizen homeだとか何センターだとかToronto辺りでは色々作っておりますよね。
あれはやっぱりredressのある程度の資金で？
I see... With some fund from the redress, for example, Senior Citizen Home, some kind
of centres and so on are being constructed around
Toronto
now, aren’t they? Are they being built with some fund from the redress?
TK
リドレスの資金は全国で色んな事をやるのにとても足りないので結局それをseed moneyにして...
The fund from the redress is far from enough to do various things all around the country,
so we used it as seed money after all...
TK
他からお金を集めてやらないと出来ないっていう事。それから、バンクーバーでの問題はそういう老人ホーム。それから文化センター。そういった物の総合、
complexを作ろうっていう事を計画してるんですけど。
We can’t do those without collecting money from somewhere else. And the issue we have
in
Vancouver
is... We are planning to build that kind of seniors home and the cultural centre,
... a complex combining all those.
TK
それが意外に大変な事なんです。何故かっていうと、日本にいらっしゃればすぐお分かりになったんですけれども。かかるお役所が全て違うわけですね。
そうなるとこっちのお役所がいいと言ってもここのお役所がいいと言うとは限らないです。それから土地の（けん？）（規制？）
And that is more difficult than we expected. It is because, ... you will understand
as you are in Japan, ... all different government
offices are involved. So even though this office says okay, another office doesn’t
necessary say the same thing. And the (rights?)
(regulation?) on the land...
TK
例えばこういう事には使えるけどこういう事には使えないとか。中々そういう...
For example, we can use it for this kind of thing, but not this, and so on. It’s hard
to deal with those...
TK
ええ。だからそういう総合センターっていうアイデアは非常に良いし、例えば老人ホームのすぐ隣に文化センターがあればお年寄りがそこに行って遊んで来るっていうメリット
があるわけですよ。それを実現するのは中々大変ですが、まあ何とかやりたいという事で皆さん努力してます。
Yes. Building such a complex is a great idea. There will be a benefit, for example,
if there is a cultural centre right next to
a seniors home, seniors can visit there, have a good time, and come back. It’s quite
tough to make it happen, but we really want it,
so everyone is working hard.
HF
まあ、別に外人も東洋人も白人も別に同じnursing homeに入っても問題は無いと思うけれどねー。ただ東洋人ってのは(?)もするから、ね？Group basisっていうのが
非常にすごいですからね。それにやっぱりあの、人馴染みしない連中でしょ？外国人ってのは、例えば旅行していて分かる事は、仮にエレベーターに乗ろうと道を開けていても
お互いに会釈したり、微笑んだりで挨拶する事平気ですね。
Well, I don’t think there will be any problems if foreigners, Asians, and Caucasians
all live in the same nursing home.
But Asians do (?), you see? Group basis is very important. And Asians don’t get friendly
to the people they don’t know so easily, right?
For example, when traveling overseas, you see foreigners have no problems nodding
greetings and smiling when someone let them in
the elevator.
HF
日本人てのはそういう事出来ない。
Fudge talks with an amused type of tone.
知らない人には絶対口利かないし。一人一人は大変いい方だけれど、まあ、(?)っていうのかなそれは、やっぱり。
Japanese can’t do that.
Fudge talks with an amused type of tone.
They never talk to the people they don’t know. Each one of them is a very good person,
but I think it’s what we call (?)?
TK
あの、それとですね、やはり、それでも若いうちは、例えばカナダに長い間住んでいるとか、まあ、なんとか他の人種とも仲良くやっていけるんだと思います。
そういう所で仕事をしてきたんですから。年取ってくるとね、面倒くさがるんです。
And, in addition, when they are young and, for example, if they lived in
Canada
for a long time, I think they would be able to get along with other races because
they have worked in such an environment.
But once they get old, they tend to find it cumbersome.
HF
もう東洋人ってのが何もないね。日本語が出来ない(?)。それはbilingualであるのはすごく大事な事だと思うね。妹にも言うたんだけど自分は自分の子供に必ず別に
日本語をやれとは言わないけど、フランス語であろうと、なんであろうと、まあ東洋人だから日本語を話す事も越したこともないんだけれど。それでもbilinugualってのは
物凄く大事だよっていう。
They don’t have Asian influence at all any more. They can’t speak Japanese (?). I
think being bilingual is very important.
I told this to my sister too. I wouldn’t say her kids should necessarily learn Japanese,
but whether it’s French or whatever language,
...of course it’s good for them to speak Japanese because they are Asians... being
bilingual is very important.
HF
00:25:06.000
うちのkidsはね、勿論英語は分かるけれども僕は家で英語を話してないもんだから。
My kids, of course, understand English, but because I don’t speak English at home...
00:25:06.000
HF
まあ、今から思えばもうちょっと僕が家で英語ばっか話してればよかったかな。女房が英語好きだから。しょっちゅう英語の勉強、やっておりますし。
彼女（に？）よく言われるのはもうちょっと家で英語、話してもらいたいわねって。
But, looking back, I should’ve spoken English all the time at home because my wife
like English. She often studies English and often
tells me that she wants me to speak more English at home.
HF
鹿毛さんとこはあれでしょ。もう子供は英語バリバリだよね。日本語を教えるのが大変...
Your kids are, Mr. Kage... They can speak English completely fluently, can’t they?
It must be difficult to teach Japanese...
TK
そうなんです。ですからカナダへ行ってからうちの中でもっと日本語使うべきだったと思ってます。
Yes, that’s right. So I regretted that I should have spoken more Japanese at home
after I went to Canada.
TK
えっとね、それがですね、上の方の子供はランゲージスクールがやさしすぎたんです。それでやだって。というのは日本で一番上のは中学一年生までいったんです。
The thing is, the language school was too easy for my oldest child. So she didn’t
want to go there. Because she has already
completed grade 7 in
Japan
.
TK
ところがですね、一番下のは日本でまだ学校行ってなかったんですね。それで学校の年になったから...
On the other hand, the youngest child hadn’t gone to school yet in Japan. And once
reaching the school age...
HF
Fudge talks over Tatsuo for a moment.
それは難しい。
Fudge talks over Tatsuo for a moment.
That’s difficult.
TK
うちで使ってないですからね。そうすると難しくて。やだって。これも半年くらいでやめまして。ただ今、今度連れて来てるんでけども。
Because we didn’t speak Japanese, it was difficult. So he said no and quit too in
about half a year. I brought him here now, though.
HF
僕らは強制されて。近所も全部行ってるから行けたのであって、近所が行ってなかったら僕も途中でやっぱ辞めてたかもしれない。
We were forced. Because all the kids in my neighbourhood went to the school, I was
able to keep up, but if they hadn’t,
I might have quit too.
TK
ただあの、いまは二十一（歳）なんですけども向こうの大学で少し日本語を学んでいるんですけども。それから今連れてきてるんですけれども、ともかく、片言で（家を出そうと？）
努力してますから。
Um, he is twenty-one now and is learning Japanese a little in the university there,
so I brought him here, but his Japanese
is quite broken. I’m trying to (take him out of the house?).
HF
やっぱり日本語の必要性、日本に来ればすごく分かるでしょ。だけど今はね、本当、戦後の頃から振り返って見るといい、何て言うんです、経験だったって言うか、
やっぱりexperienceでしょうね。Canadaにいたらこういうexperienceはできなかったでしょうね。完全な文化の違いの中に自分が入って行ってるわけですから。
だからそういう意味においてもdisadvantageっていうのも...でもまあ、英語で話が出来たっていうのは非常に大きなadvantageだったから。それが活かされた事が
はっきり言って言えるでしょうね。今はもう英語出来たって別に誰でも出来る時代ですから。
Fudge coughs a couple of times.
だから最近はやっぱり英語が出来る優秀なのおりますね。すごいです、やっぱり。まあ、これは物の好き嫌いでしょうね。やっぱり英語が好きな子はやっぱり
違うんですね。
Once you are in Japan, you realize the necessity of learning Japanese, don’t you?
Now, looking back to the time right after the war,
...how can I say this... it was an experience, I think. If I had stayed in Canada,
I wouldn’t have had this experience.
I went into the completely different culture. In that sense, the disadvantage was...
but it was a very big advantage that I was able
to speak English. So clearly, I utilized the skill. Now, speaking English is not really
an advantage anymore, though, because everyone
can do it.
Fudge coughs a couple of times.
You know, there are smart people who can speak English these days. They are excellent.
Well, I think it’s whether you like it or not.
After all, the kids who like English are different.
TK
そうですね。外国に旅行したい、留学したいっていうのは私が、学生時代はようやく出来るようになった...
You are right. Travelling in foreign counties, studying abroad, ...those kinds of
things have not been possible until around
the time when I was a student.
TK
ただそれでもですね、若い人が観光旅行するというのは殆どなかったですね。1960年くらい。
Even then, it was rare that young people travelled abroad for sightseeing. Around
1960.
HF
00:29:59.000
はい。それで今年間1200人くらいUS (United States)に行かしてる。Home stayで。UCLAだとかUSCとかそういう所に。Home stay
programを使ってね。
やっぱり語学ってのはすごく大事だから。僕は言ってるんだけど、僕が文部大臣だったら幼稚園から英語を勉強させて。日本っていうのは中々
Fudge mumbles something.
ないとダメです。取り残されてしまいます。今は結果的に技術だとか、勤勉さとか、コストだとかそういう意味において大きなメリットをもってないと。
これからはもうそういうのは段々頭も良い、勤勉もあるけどやっぱりコストが高くなる。そうすると部品が日本で作れないから海外で作る。それでtradeの
inbalanceの問題もあるわけだから。そういう事からするとやっぱり
Fudge’s voice covered by background noise.
。
Yes. And about 1200 people have been sent to the US, the
United States
, this year. Homestays. To the places like UCLA, USC, and so on. Using homestay programs.
Because language skills are important.
I always say that if I was a Minister of Education, I would start English education
from kindergartens. Japan has to
Fudge mumbles something.
Otherwise, we will be left behind. Skills, diligence, costs, ...we now should have
a big advantage in that sense. Although there are smart
and hard-working people in Japan, the costs are going up in the future. Then they
can not produce mechanical parts in Japan
anymore and will start making them in other countries. There is an issue of imbalance
in trade too. Thinking of those things,
Fudge’s voice covered by background noise.
.
00:29:59.000
TK
それで言葉も（？）結局、言葉の理解というか勉強が文化や（？）の理解に繋がりますから。そこも合わせて勉強すると（？）。
And language also (?). After all, understanding or studying languages leads to understanding
of cultures and (?).
By studying those things all together (?).
HF
中学校から一生懸命に高度な英語ね。文法だとかそういう事習わすよりもう幼稚園から自然発生に。まあ、会話の問題だとか理解の問題だとかねそういうのは
絶対やらんといかんでしょうね。まあ、色んな国際会議なんかに出たとしても、沢山出るんだけれども殆どがその会議の内容について、協議された事についてチンプンカンプンです。
それがやっぱ良くないね。我々一番日本に来て感じてこれは本当に寂しいなと思ったのはいわゆる、後輩も先輩も同僚もいない。と言うのも我々日本に来た時もう仕事する以外道は
なくて。更に教育を、学校に行く、そういう事の余裕も無いわけだから。それがまたこう、学校行ったりして。例えば大学行ったとして、また別問題ね。そうすると先輩、
後輩ができる。その点が、僕はJCに入った。青年会議所、Junior Chamber Club。あれが自分の丁度母校みたいなもんでしてね。あれは沢山の友達に恵まれましてね。
今だ何て言うか、そういう人に可愛がってもらってるし、親しくお付き合いしてるし。すっごい良い経験になりましたね。大阪の連中が多いんですけど、大阪JCで。
一時期僕はInternational JCのSecretary Generalをやれって言われたんですよ。
Instead of having students study very hard the advanced-level English, such as grammar
and so on, from junior high schools,
we should have children learn it naturally from kindergartens. I think learning conversations
and understanding cultures
are absolutely necessary. When employees go to various international conferences,
...many people do, but most of them don’t
understand what is spoken there at all. That is not good. What made me feel lonely
the most when we came to Japan was that
we didn’t have either, what we call, seniors, juniors, or classmates from school there.
When we came to Japan, we had no
choice but to work. We didn’t afford to go to school for further education. If we
were able to go to school, for example university,
things would be different. Then we would have our seniors and juniors. That is why
I joined the JC. The Junior Chamber Club.
That was a kind of my alma mater. I was able to make friends with many people. They
still keep in touch with me, and we keep
close company. It was really a good experience. Many of them are from
Osaka
, the Osaka JC. There was a time when I was asked to be the Secretary General of the
International JC.
HF
だけど僕はね、会社から二、三年のtemporary absenceしか取れないもんですからやめといた。まあ、勉強する意味において僕もSecretary General
やってみても良かったかもね。
But because my company allowed only two- or three- year temporary absence, I decided
not to accept the offer. As my learning opportunity,
it might have been a good experience to be the Secretary General, though.
HF
Full time jobですね。マイアミで。二年間。だからやれって言われても僕はもうそういうのはやれないからって言って断りましたけど。だからそういう意味で
僕はいい友達が...だから結果的にやっぱりそういうような一つのきっかけっていうのは凄く大事だったと思いますね。それは確かに友達だとか仕事の関係で恵まれた
もんですからね。まあ、そういう意味では我々は外国で産まれてるもんだからちょっと違う所がありますからね。そういう意味でまた友達自身も色んなこういう関係の
中において、我々のようなむこう生まれと付き合うのも色んな意味で経験であったかもしれないね。
That was a full-time job. In Miami. For two years. So I turned down because I was
not able to do it. So, in that sense,
have good friends... So I think such an opportunity (to be able to make friends with
those people) was very important.
I am lucky to have such good friends and to get to know people through my jobs. In
that sense, we, those who were born in foreign countries,
are a little different. In that sense, it might have been a unique experience for
our friends too to keep company with foreign-born people
like us in various senses.
TK
今のお話しを聞きましてですね、私自身も結局四十近くなってからイミグラントとしてカナダに来ました。おっしゃった先輩、後輩、友達っていうのはカナダにいない
わけですから。
Listening to that... I myself also moved to Canada as an immigrant when I was almost
forty. As you said, I didn’t have any seniors,
juniors, or friends in Canada.
TK
まあ、それは覚悟してたようなものですし、しょうがないと思うんですけれども。幸いにしても日系人の活動に参加していたら非常に良い人と知り合いになりまして。
I was somehow prepared for it, and nothing could help, but luckily, I was able to
get to know very good people after I started working
with Japanese Canadians.
TK
それでまあ、日系人にはうるさい、面倒くさい事もありますけどもやはり自動的に（？）というものがありますし。えらい古いです。二世の人達で。
And in working with Japanese Canadians, there are sometimes nuisances and inconveniences,
but (?). They are very old fashioned.
Nisei people.
HF
ええ、そうです。すごい古い。まあ、我々の考え方っていうのは親父に叩き込まれていわゆる、忠誠心、すごく国を愛する、その、大和魂精神をこうすごいですね。
Yes, we are. Very old fashioned. Our ways of thinking are full of what our fathers
taught us, what we call, loyalty.
We tend to have great love to the country, or Japanese spirit.
TK
00:35:00.000
ただそういう国っていう事になりますとね、カナダにいる人達は結局自分達はCanadianだ...日本への忠誠心ってみたいなのは全然表面に出てこない。
However, in terms of countries, those who are in Canada identify themselves Canadians
after all... And things like loyalty to
Japan don’t come to the surface at all.
00:35:00.000
TK
ただその家族を重要視する考え方っていうのは日本の古いもの、非常に強く思っています。
But they have very strong Japanese way of thinking, valuing families.
HF
なるほどね。僕なんか戦争終わったらすぐ徴兵されたんですよ。
I see. I was drafted for the military service right after the war ended.
HF
Militaryになれって。そしたらCanadian armyはten yearsからfifteen years じゃないとarmy sergeantになれないと。君達はJapanese
Canadian
だからgo to the language schools。そうすれば we will give you the rank of sergeant。僕（言ったのね？）、あなた達戦争中、いわゆる、
敵扱いをして、終わった途端に(?) army入れってとんでもない話です。僕は入らない。それが戦争中に入れって言ったらそれは僕は義務として入りますけど
今終わった暁に何の義務もない。そういうような事はちょっと覚えていますけどね。やっぱりその国に生まれた人はその国のcitizensとして立派に、
それはやっぱりその国の為に身を捧げるっていう、これ非常に大切だそうです。それはそうですよね。
Told to go to the military. Then I was told that we would be able to be army sergeants
only after serving for ten or fifteen years
and that because we were Japanese Canadians, we should go to the language schools.
Then, We will give you the rank of sergeant.
I told them, You treated us as an enemy during the war, and as soon as the war ended,
you now tell us to join the Army.
That is ridiculous. I will never join the Army. If I had been told to do so during
the war, I would have joined you as my duty,
but the war ended now, and I have no obligation. I remember I said that. They think
it’s very important that those who were born
in the country devote themselves to the country as citizens. I understand it.
TK
ただ、そういう、自分達はCanadianだっていう事を強く意識し、そういうbehaviourになったのは、一つはそれによってカナディアンである事を証明して差別に
対する、戦おうとする。いわば差別があったからこそ益々自分達はカナディアンなんだっていうのを証明せざるを得ない、そういう立場に...
One of the reasons why they had strong consciousness of being Canadians and acted
that way was because, by doing so,
they needed to prove that they were Canadians and to fight against discrimination.
Because of the discrimination,
they needed to prove that they were Canadians even firmly. They were in such a position...
HF
今はどうですか？もうあんまりそういう差別とかそういうものはあまり気が付かないですか？
How about now? You don’t feel that there is not much discrimination or something like
that anymore?
TK
表に立ってはないですね。ただ私共のような戦後移住者の立場から見ると、例えば人種差別なのかそれともこちらの言葉がちゃんと出来ないとか。
あるいは仕事上の経験が違うから。それからうまい仕事に就けないから。その辺の所がはっきりしない。
No apparent one. But for the post-war immigrants like us, it’s difficult to tell,
for example, whether it’s racial discrimination
or it’s because of the language barrier. Or it’s because of lack of experience that
we can’t get a job. It’s not clear.
HF
だけどもうMemebers of Parliamentになったら色々通りますでしょう。
But Japanese Canadians are now members of Parliament and so on, aren’t they?
TK
いわゆる、Elective Representativeになってる人は全然いない。というか、どっかの mayorがいるとかですね、たまにそういうのが...
There is no Japanese Canadian who is an elective representative. I sometimes hear
that the mayor somewhere is a Japanese Canadian, but...
TK
多分MLAも...州の議員も立法の議員も全然いないと思います。
Short pause.
But no MLA... I don’t think there is any either in the provincial or federal parliaments.
TK
そうですね。だからそれがこれからの日系社会の課題だと思っています。新しい若い人じゃないと務まらないと思います。若い人で政治に関心があってそういう所に
出て行って。（？）がはっきりしてる。勿論時間がかかる事だし本人に時間をかけて努力してもらわないとなんですけど。今までの所は結局カナダ社会の中に入って
行っても専門の技術とか技能を身に付けて弁護士になるとかエンジニアになるとか。そういう人...
I agree. So I think that is one of the future tasks the Japanese Canadian society
has. I think only young people can do it.
The young people who are interested in politics , who can go out to such places, and
(?). Of course, it takes time, and those people
have to make a lot of efforts, though. So far, those who went into the Canadian society
learned skills and knowledge and became lawyers,
engineers, and so on. There are people in such occupations...
HF
そうね。僕の友達意外とKaz OiyeとかTak Tanabeだとか。あいつは画家ですかな。Oiyeってのは弁護士でな。意外とね、僕の学友っていうの。まあまあ頑張ってる
みたいな。
Right. Friends of mine, such as
Kaz Oiye
and
Tak Tanabe
. He is a painter. Oiye is a lawyer. The friends of mine from school
actually seem to be doing well.
TK
ただそこへ行くのと政治に入って行くのはまた...
But gaining such occupations and getting into the political fields are...
HF
本当だね。そうね。やっぱり意外と日本人ってのは勤勉だし頭も良いし。ただminority groupだからね。そういう意味だとやっぱりこれからしっかりやらないと。
Right. Yeah. Japanese are smart and hard-working. But we are a minority group, so
we need to work on it hard.
HF
大体何人くらい？十万人くらいおりますか、今、チャイニーズ？
About how many are there? Are there about ten thousand Chinese now?
HF
今は二千五百万人くらいですよね、全人口。まあ今沢山香港から行ってますよね、immigrants。
Isn’t it about 25 million now? The total population is. Many people moved from Hong
Kong, didn’t they? The immigrants.
TK
Japanese Canadianの十倍ぐらいいるんじゃないですか？
I guess their population is about ten times more than that of Japanese Canadians.
HF
00:40:00.000
四十万とか五十万単位でいるかも。じゃあもうVancouverのChinatownなんて大変なもんだね。日本人町はどうなりました？やっぱりそれはもう...
There might be four- or five-hundred thousand. Then the
Chinatown
in Vancouver must be very big. What is the
Japan Town
like now?
It no longer...
00:40:00.000
TK
日本人町そのもの、パウエルストリートの辺りはあまりパッとしない所ですから。Skidrow areaになってしまいました。
The Japan Town itself... The area around Powell Street is not lively. It has become
a skid row area.
HF
ああそう。
Fudge sounds a little surprised.
例のPowell Groundっていうのありましたね。
Oh, I see.
Fudge sounds a little surprised.
There was a place called
Powell Ground
, wasn’t there?
HF
むこうのうらっかわ、Alexanderに学校あります？学校はまだやってるの？
At the back of it, is there a school on
Alexander
? Is the school still there?
HF
Mrs. Satoはまだ元気？それとももうお亡くなりになりましたか。
Is
Mrs. Sato
still doing well? Or has she already passed away?
TK
亡くなったですよね。先に。それでMrs. Satoも何年前かな？そんなに前の事では...
He did. And Mrs. Sato also passed away. I wonder how many years ago. I don’t think
it was that long ago.
HF
Mrs. Satoに僕は小学校一年の時に習ってそれで高一に習った。あの先生に僕は物凄く可愛がってもらって。僕はやんちゃ坊主だったから。ガキ大将で。
I was taught by Mrs. Sato in Grade 1 and then in Grade 10. She looked after me very
well. I was a mischievous boy. The leader of
the pack of kids.
TK
あの、どちらも亡くなられた後です。私がまだバンクーバーにいた頃はもうリタイアはされていましたけど...
Um, both of them have passed away. When I was in
Vancouver
, they were still alive although they had already retired.
HF
全然なくて。はい。
Short pause.
で、男の子二人で。一人はうちの会社の部長やってますし。もう一人は自分で会社、代理店、（外車？）の経営をしてます。
Short pause.
まあだけどホントにね、戦争終わって初めて富士山を見て、もうなんか遠い昔の様な話ね。あぁこれが日本かなって思って。久里浜に降りて一番最初びっくりしたのは
トラックがいわゆる、
Fudge gives a small laugh.
右から来るわけで。危ないですから。これはびっくりしたですね。何なんだあれはと思って。いやー、あの時は食事の事情というのも本当にね。
で、田舎に初めてああいう所から、relocation centerから田舎に行ったんですけど「ごちそうだ！」っていう事で何かなと思ったらジャガイモとネギと醤油で
炊いて、鯖の魚かな？まるで今日は大変な事だ（？）
Fudge gives a small laugh.
子供心にして。今は（？）意外と少ないですから。もう大体帰りましたでしょ。多くがね。
Not at all. No.
Short pause.
And we have two sons. One is working in my company as a manager. The other one has
his own business, a dealer of foreign cars.
Short pause.
Well, When I saw Mt. Fuji for the first time after the war, ... It feels like a long
time ago, ... I felt, Ah, this is Japan.
The first thing I was surprised at when I got off at
Kurihama
was trucks
Fudge gives a small laugh.
coming from your right. I could be run over. I was surprised at them. I wondered,
What was that? And the food situation at that
time was really... I went to the countryside from that place, from the relocation
centre to the countryside. People said,
We will have a feast today! so I wondered what we were going to eat. Then, they served
potatoes and green onions cooked in
soy sauce and fish. I think it was mackerel. They sounded like, Today is the special
occasion. (?)
Fudge gives a small laugh.
In my child’s mind. Now not many (?). Most of them went back, didn’t they? Many of
them.
TK
でも今度のリドレスのアプリケーションが日本からですね、1200人くらい。だから結構の数がいらっしゃって。それが大体...
But actually we received about 1200 applications for this redress from Japan. So there
are quite a lot of people. And...
TK
それで1000人は既に書類の処理が終わっているという事はその大部分の方はお金を貰っていると思います。
And 1000 applications have already been processed, so I think most of the people have
received money.
HF
1000もおりますか。じゃあCanadian Embassyに行ってregisterしてるかどうかの問題ですね。それで（？）しかないね。
As many as 1000! Then, I guess it’s whether they have registered at the Canadian Embassy
or not. (?)
TK
それでですね、結局お金を貰った人のリストというのは手に入るのですけれどもただ私が見ましたのは名前とそれからファーストネームの場合イニシャルしかないんですよね。
And we can get the list of those who received money, but all I was only able to see
were their names, and if they are first names,
they only put the initials.
HF
そういうものは書いてないね。だからその中には年寄りもいらっしゃるからね。Isseisも。
Nothing like those. There are elderly people among them, including Isseis.
TK
00:44:59.000
それが勿論カナダと日本の区別のない、全体のリストで。100ページくらいのリストみたいです。だけどそれじゃあちょっと何にもならない。それ以上のインフォメーションを政府の方は渡してくれないんです。
だから近い将来分かれば非常に面白いんですけどね。だからそれじゃないので結局日本にいるJapanese Canadianの連絡の方法としては私共が二年前に、’89年に、リドレスの集会をやるために来たその時に会場にいらした方の名前と
アドレスを書いてもらって。それが全部で700人近くあるんです。
That was the list including everyone without distinguishing between Canada and Japan,
of course. I think there are about 100 pages.
But that is not useful at all. The government doesn’t give us any more details. If
we could get those details in the near future,
it would be interesting, though. So, the only other way to contact Japanese Canadians
in Japan is the list of names and addresses
of the people who attended the redress meetings we had two years ago, in 1989. That
includes nearly 700 people.
00:44:59.000
TK
それをですね、そのリストを日系ボイスという新聞に提供しまして。それでそのリストに載っている方に...
And we provided the list to the newspaper, named
Nikkei Voice
. And (let) those who are on the list (know)...
HF
あれJapanese Canadianっていう新聞ありましたな。あれはもう何...？
There was a newspaper, named Japanese Canadian, wasn’t there? Is it still...?
TK
はい。それで古い編集者、（モリ？）さんっていうのがようやくリタイアされて。ウメツキさんっていう方は大分前に亡くなったんですけれども。
それで今ニューイミグラントの人が引き受けてまた新しく少し（？）が変わりまして。
Yes. And the previous editor, named Mr. Mori (?), finally retired. The person, named
Mr. Umetsuki, passed away long time ago.
And a new immigrant person took over the position, and (?) has slightly changed.
HF
僕はもうNew Canadianは終わってしまったかなと思って。まだやってるの。
I thought New Canadian has already ceased, but they are still publishing it.
TK
それから戦争中も英語の日系の新聞で続いては...
Long pause.
それの編集をやってたトム・ショウヤマっていう人は戦後偉くなりまして。
Even during the war, it continued as a Japanese Canadian newspaper in English...
Long pause.
The editor of it, named
Tom Shoyama
, became an important man after the war.
TK
あの人はMinistry of Financeの大臣の次ぐらいまでの所まで行ったんです。
He had reached the position next to the Minister of Finance.
HF
偉いですね！大したもんですね。
Fudge sounds very impressed.
That is a high position! That’s great.
Fudge sounds very impressed.
HF
Victoriaは良い所だから。隠居するには最高の所ね。Tom Shoyamaってのはどこですか？Vancouverの男？
Victoria
is a good place. It’s the best place to retire. Where is
Tom Shoyama
from? Is he from
Vancouver
?
TK
そうですね。全然だから戦争が起こった頃にまたニューカナディアンの編集をやってました。
Yes. So when the war began, he was still an editor of
New Canadian
.
HF
00:48:21.000
戦争が始まった頃のUBCってのは日系のgraduatesってのはそんな多くなかったものね。僕の従妹が出てるけど...ほぉ。
Around the time when the war began, there were not many Japanese Canadian graduates
from UBC. My cousin graduated there, though. I see.
00:48:21.000
TK
...奥さんが非常に元気でビクトリア（？）。その人はUBCを女性で卒業した一番早い人の一人ですね。それでソーシャルワークをやって。インターメントキャンプの
ソーシャルワーカーを。
TK
っていうのは、その当時はソーシャルワーカー...
Tatsuo cut short.
Because social workers at the time...
Tatsuo cut short.
HF
Raymond Moriyamaね！あれもVancouverの男ですか？大したもんだねあれ。
Raymond Moriyama! Is he from Vancouver too? He is great.
HF
ああそう。World Trade Centerはやったのは？New Yorkの。
Oh, I see. Who is the one who designed the World Trade Centre in
New York
?
HF
Canada Placeね。Torontoのあれもやったでしょ。（？）？
Canada Place. He designed that one in Toronto too, didn’t he? (?)
TK
トロントはね、いくつかやってると思うんですよ。私はライブラリーを...
In Toronto, I think there are some of this works. The library...
HF
World Trade Centerもやったんですか？New Yorkの。
Is the World Trade Centre his work too? The one in New York?
HF
Raymond Moriyamaやったと思うよ。世界一高いやつ。単純なね、長方形のビルだけれど。
Short pause.
僕はNew Yorkに年間二回は行くんですよね。
I think it was Raymond Moriyama’s. The tallest one in the world. It’s a simple rectangular
building, though.
Short pause.
. I go to New York at least twice a year.
HF
五月と大体九月のゴールデンウイークになりますから。大体ね。ただ今年はちょっと特別で八月になった。その間（？）だからまた来年はどうでしょうか。
五月、七月、まあ今度はwifeと一緒に。Octoberちょっと寒いですよ、Vancouver。ちょっと冷えるね。
In May and around September. Falls into the Golden Week, most of the time. But this
year, I went in August unlike usual.
During that (?) I’m not sure about the next year. May, July, ... well, next time,
I’m going with my wife. In October,
it’s a little cold in Vancouver. A bit chilly.
HF
Vancouver、僕はCanadaで運転するのはVancouverだけ。
Fudge gives a small laugh.
よく知ってるから。
Short pause.
綺麗ないい街。今住めばあれでしょうな。Simon Fraserの方だとか、あそこらへんもいいね。意外とね。ちょっと不便だけれど。それでLions渡って
West Vancouverとかですかあれは。あれ凄いね。
In Vancouver, ... Vancouver is the only place where I drive in Canada
Fudge gives a small laugh.
because I know the place well.
Short pause.
A nice and beautiful place. If I lived here now, ... the area around the Simon Fraser
would be great too. Better than I thought.
It’s a little inconvenient location, though. Also, is it West Vancouver, across the
Lions (Gate Bridge)? That place is exceptional,
isn’t it?
HF
ああそう？あそこはあれでしょ。Housing村みたいなもんでしょ？
Is that so? That place is, you know, something like a Housing Village, isn’t it?
HF
Kaslo Lane (Street?)辺りのいえとか百万ドルくらいするでしょ。
The houses around Kaslo Lane (Street?) cost about a million dollars, don’t they?
TK
えっとですね、百万ドル出せばかなりいいのが買えるのでは。
Well, if you pay a million dollars, I think you would be able to buy quite a luxury
house.
TK
その不動産のリストを見るとどうもバンクーバーのウェストサイドで割に良い所とそれからウェストバンクーバー、大体同じくらいの値段で。
だからそんなにウェストバンクーバーだからだと言ってべらぼうに高いわけではない。
Looking at the real estate listing, the relatively good ones in West Side of Vancouver
and the ones in West Vancouver are about the same prices.
So West Vancouver is not awfully expensive.
HF
ああ、そうですか。
Fudge sounds a little surprised.
ただあそこ橋渡らんといかんから不便ねぇ。
Oh, is that so?
Fudge sounds a little surprised.
But you need to cross the bridge, so it’s not convenient.
HF
僕よく小さい頃はVancouver Sunの前のSoapbox Derbyありますね。毎年出てて。好きで。
You know the Soapbox Derby in front of the Vancouver Sun? When I was little, I used
to do it every year. I liked it.
HF
あそこのね、Granvilleの、Stanley Parkの、今のQueen Elizabeth Parkだけれども。その中でやっぱ坂が多い、soapboxだからね。
僕は二、三年出ましたからね。丁度first Narrows Bridgeの近くですから。それにあれですね、Lionsの近く、First Narrows Bridgeの方はこれ良い
住宅出来ましたね。
There... Granville... Stanley Park... Queen Elizabeth Park now. In the place with
lots of slopes because that was a soapbox race.
I did it for two or three years. It was right near the First Narrows Bridge. Oh, and
in the area near the Lions, the
Frist Narrows Bridge, there are nice new houses now, aren’t there?
HF
渡ってからすぐの右っ側の方。意外とあんな今まで何も無かった所ですよ。
Right across the bridge, on the right-hand side. There used to be nothing in such
an area.
TK
ただライオンズゲートの下の辺り、向こう側の方はインディアンの...
The area under the Lions Gate Bridge on the other side is Indian’s...
TK
それでインディアンが住んでいるので。最近まで日系の人の経営するゴルフの練習の場をインディアンから借りてた。インディアンの方が貸さないってみたいな事を
言ったみたいで。私も何度かゴルフ練習に行った事あるんです。
Indians live there. Until recently, a Japanese Canadian rented the place and owned
a driving range. The Indians seem to have said
that they were going to stop renting it. I have been there several times to practice
golf.
TK
00:53:34.000
ご主人が戦後の移住者で奥さんが二世。奥さんの方が経営しているゴルフの練習場。
The husband is a post-war immigrant, and the wife is Nisei. The driving range was
owned by the wife.
00:53:34.000
HF
まあ、バンクーバー日本人多いですから意外と、ね。法人関係ですね。
Well, there are surprisingly many Japanese in
Vancouver
. Business people.
HF
Shaughnessy Heightsだとかそういう所はもうダメですか？
The places like
Shaughnessy
Heights are not that popular anymore?
TK
えっと、高いですよ。
Tatsuo says with a small laugh.
Well, they are expensive.
Tatsuo says with a small laugh.
HF
Shaughnessy Heightsとか14th Avenueから上ですからね。
Because Shaughnessy Heights is in the area south from the 14th Avenue.
HF
やっぱり相変わらず。じゃあ日本の大使館の関係も向こうにあるんでしょうな。
Then, it’s still the same. Then, the Japanese consul’s place is still there too?
HF
昔のやつね。
Long pause.
Vancouver(?)けど懐かしいな。変わってないな、あの町は。
The same house as before.
Long pause.
Vancouver (?)... it brings back memories. That city hasn’t changed.
HF
もうね。町は大きくはなったけれどいわゆる、Hudson’s Bayだとかそういう、Hotel Vancouverにしてもね。Strathconaにしてもね。全く同じですもんね。
Yeah. The city grew bigger, but the things like Hudson’s Bay, Hotel Vancouver, and
Strathcona are exactly the same as before.
HF
コンドミニアムはどうですか？まあまあ高い？向こうは。
Short pause.
それよりあれだね。向こう行って一月か二月くらいどっか借りてゆっくりするのも一つの方法ね。
How about condominiums? Are they quite expensive there?
Short pause.
Or rather, maybe it’s an option to rent a place for a month or two and to spend time
to relax.
TK
そうですけども、ただ、いずれいらっしゃるおつもりであるのならばコンドミニアムでも買っておられた方が、それ貸しておられたらですね、
実際に長期にお住みになるんでしたら自分で使っても良いし。
It is, but if you plan to eventually move here, it might be better to buy a condominium
or something and to rent it.
If you stay for a long time, you can use it yourself too.
TK
あっちの方はアパートがあるとするとキツラノの辺りになるのかな。
The area where there are apartments is around
Kitsilano
, I think.
HF
あの辺はもう、ガキの頃はKitslano Beachばっかり。一夏もうへばりついてたよ。
When I was a kid, I always went to Kitsilano Beach. I was there all summer.
TK
これご覧になった事あると思うんですけどこれ私が持っている一番最近の物なのでどうぞご覧ください。差し上げます。これはバンクーバーで(?)ます。
I think you have seen this before, but this is the latest one that I have, so please
take a look. This copy is for you.
It (?) in Vancouver.
TK
はいそうです。(?) 私は日本語の所は殆ど毎回書いて...
Fudge coughs a couple of times.
Yes. (?) I write the Japanese-language part in almost every issue.
TK
来年の十月のカンファレンスの予告なんかも少し出ております。
There is an announcement of the conference in October next year too.
HF
そう。
Fudge sounds interested in the newsletter or magazine Tatsuo gave him.
これ毎月一回？
Okay.
Fudge sounds interested in the newsletter or magazine Tatsuo gave him.
Is this once a month?
TK
オーバーシーはいくらだったかな...お金を払えば。
I wonder how much the overseas subscription is... You can get it if you pay.
HF
僕も買おうかな。
Long pause as Fudge read the newsletter.
Overseasは三十ドル。というとどこに手紙を書けば良いのかな？
I might want to subscribe it.
Long pause as Fudge read the newsletter.
the overseas subscription is 30 dollars. who should I write to?
TK
それの申込書みたいなのがあった気が...348 Powell Streetだったかな。
I think there is an application form or something... I think it’s 348 Powell Street.
HF
00:58:34.000
ここに書けばいいんですか？これはバンクーバーの事が多いんでしょ。
Should I write to this place? It’s mostly about Vancouver, isn’t it?
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Title
Hiroshi Fudge Fujino, interviewed by Tatsuo Kage, 01 January 1991
Abstract
Fudge Fujino
is the oldest son out of five brothers and one sister. Before the war his father ran
a Grocery store on Granville Street. After the war
started they were forcibly removed to
Lemon Creek
while their father was sent to a road camp. Fudge was against going to war-torn
Japan
but his parents decided to go back as they were worried about their family. As the
oldest son, Fudge felt there was no choice but to
follow his parents. Once arriving in Japan, Fudge worked for the Occupational Forces
where there was a high demand for bilingual people.
He then describes the hardships he faced, including food shortages. They then discuss
upcoming reunions and redress.
Tatsuo describes that approximately 1200 redress applications were received from Japan.
However, there was no information on who from
the list of redress applications were from Japan. Therefore when he hosted events
in 1989 in Japan to spread the word of redress,
he asked attendees to provide their contact information. This list was made with the
intent of being a record of the Japanese Canadian
population in Japan.
This oral history is from the Nikkei National Museum and Cultural Centre's Kage Collection. Accession No. 2021-7-1-1-3. It describes the experience of exile.
Credits
Interviewer: Tatsuo Kage
Interviewee: Hiroshi Fudge Fujino
Transcriber: Sakura Taji
Translator: Keiko Kaneko
Audio Checker: Sakura Taji
XML Encoder: Sakura Taji
Publication Information: See Terms of Use for publication and licensing information.
Setting:
Japan
Terminology
Readers of these historical materials will encounter derogatory references to Japanese
Canadians and euphemisms used to obscure the intent and impacts of the internment
and dispossession. While these are important realities of the history, the Landscapes
of Injustice Research Collective urges users to carefully consider their own terminological
choices in writing and speaking about this topic today as we confront past injustice.
See our statement on terminology, and related sources here.