Hiro Kanashiro, interviewed by Ann Sunahara, 01 January 1977

. . . 18 years old when he came over. See I'm born in Lethbridge.

Yes.

But yeah now so I got my dental out, too. Both laugh. And at the end of, that was about '18, '19, there. And I went straight down to the Ocean Falls. You know what it is?

Yeah.

Ocean Falls used to be a paper mill, saw mills, in the 30s. Was a Depression family. My parents say they used to work in Lethbridge but they moved over there.

In the mines?

No they used to work in the mines, yeah. In Hardieville. And then while I was in Japan, they moved over to the coast, there on Vancouver Island, and went to the paper mill there in Ocean Falls. That’s where they were working when I came over.

When did you come back to Canada?

1937.

Ah.

Yeah.

So you went for primary school then in Japan?

Mhmm.

Yeah.

So—well, course when I came here, I couldn’t speak a bit of English. So went to school, night schools, in what, 2? 3 years? You know. I was 18 years old and they put me in the grade 1 class, and you know. Laughs. Right now it seems like they can’t do that, eh? They’ve got these vocational schools and all that you know. But that time, they didn’t have anything like that you know.

Yeah.

Inaudible moments due to background noise. . . . and then night school thing happened.

So you went to night school where? In Vancouver or Ocean Falls?

No, Ocean Falls. Yeah, night school, and I went to school, let’s see. I was in the grade 1 about three months, then the summer holiday came and then I went back in September I had a report card that said report to grade seven. So I went to the grade 7 class and well, that was too hard for me. So they arranged the 7, and 6, and 5, and 4. You know. I’d done grade 7 or 6 or 5, or something you know, music or you know anything else. What I don’t need, well I just jumped around and go to some other classes, you know. Laughs. Just learning, reading, writing, you know.

Yeah I see, yeah the idea was to learn to read and write English rather than anything else.

Yeah, mhmm, right.

Because your numbers you could do in Japanese anyways.

Yeah. And three years later. Well, my—see I have a step-mother. So this oldest boy, you know my brother, well he lives in town here. He was only 6. He’s got to start school. And then, well, I don’t know something happened to his birth certificate. So he had to come to Lethbridge, he was born in Lethbridge, too, eh? So we had to come to Lethbridge to get all this straightened out. So dad—see I never been in Alberta since I came back here from Japan. I’m born here but I wanted to come here, but I went down to Ocean Falls—

So this would be 1940?

‘40, yeah.

Yeah.

And in 1940, in the summer, around August, September. My dad brought myself and my brother over to Alberta, and we had a few months holiday. Went back in Vancouver and then we had a month about there. So around October, I guess. Went back, get back to the work, you know. I had a job then. And dad got on his job. And about two months later, he says, “This happened. War.”

So he—

So we had to turn around and come round again. So where else could we go? My dad knows that mom and dad know Lethbridge well, eh, because they had lived here for years. So they decided to go back to Alberta. Yeah, and then there was one, two, three—one, two—

Did they make this decision after the announcement for full evacuation, or?

Oh yes. Well you see, right away—

Was your dad a national?

Yeah well as soon as that Pearl Harbour, you know, was bombed, well a whole bunch of soldiers and all that moved into Ocean Falls. And then they announced that the Japanese have to leave—

I see.

—here, you know. Because they didn’t want them around the factories, you know, the paper mills and all that, this could all be sabotaged, and all that. But then, everything’s there. So one by one the families all moving out, eh? But where they go? They go to Vancouver, eh? So, our families was going and three other families, I think there was three families that was close friends, and they never been to Alberta. Our families going to Alberta, says “How ‘bout taking us, too?” So there’s four families yes, and on their own, we start leaving, to Vancouver. But the others going to Vancouver but they didn’t know where they’re going, you see? But our families and then the three other families are all heading for Lethbridge, eh. And when we got to the Vancouver, well, it comes on the ship, eh, from Ocean Falls. So all that freight and all that, so I have to stay back and transfer over to, you know, on the CP—you know the CPRs. And so, well, the family all left. Left to Vancouver. And they safely got to Lethbridge. And then I was going to say in the Vancouver for maybe a couple days, you know, like transfer everything, you know. It was coming on the next ship so I was going to transfer that and then I was going to come to Alberta. By gosh I stayed in Vancouver for four months. Well the day I was going to leave the Mounties said, “You can’t go.”

I see, now. Tape cuts out. When you were told that your family would have to leave Ocean Falls, was this before or after the mass evacuation announcement? Was this just a local thing or was it just local?

Yes! You’re on your own already, you see, because you know we have to move out, eh?

Yeah.

We have to move out.

But they didn’t have these regulations where you had to move out with the government?

No, no. Before that.

I see.

That’s why you have to pay all the fares. Train fares and everything, on your own. And then that’s how they came, see? And then I stayed in Vancouver for four months.

On Powell Street area? Or was it Hastings Park?

No, I was in Hastings, with my friends. Homes. And stayed there. With nothing to do, everyday, everyday, no I just stayed there. I was waiting for—I go down to the BC Security Commission to get my permit, to go to Alberta. You know. I just said, “My family’s there, and so I want to come to Alberta.” But they won’t let me go. So they tell me to go to RCMP Headquarters, eh? So I’ll go down there, but they won’t give me, they tell me to go BC Security Commission.

Catch-22.

Back and forth, you know. And oh, by that time, three months, four months, passed by, you know. And I was still, well twenty years old, so golly, and the curfew is on for Japanese, eh? 8 o’clock on, you can’t go out any place. And you’re still young, you want to go to a movie or anyplace, you want to go in the nighttime, you can’t go out eh, you got to just stay home. And then me and myself and this friend, he was the same age as I am, and then we just Laughs. all got in the bedroom, just stayed there, you know, we can’t go any place. You know? But you want to hear some of these stories, what we did, a lot of things?

Sure.

You know. Because we were young, so I mean, I tell ya, we did volunteer for the Canadian army.

Yeah.

You know?

Uh huh.

We got refused.

Yeah.

Okay. And then we wanted go out after 8 o’clock, you know I mean we could have stayed home, listen to the records and all that, you know I mean it wasn’t fun anymore and you want to go see movies and all that, you know. But can’t go. So we’re laying around and one day, this my friend says, “Hiro do you have the guts to go out?” I says, “Well we’ll get caught and thrown in the jail.” He says, “Yeah but we’ll try not to get caught.” “But idea is this,” he says, “We’ll go out and we’ll head for the Pender Streets, where all the Chinese are.” See at that time Chinese were all against Japanese here because you know the war and all that. And “Why the reason we’re heading for Pender Street?” “Well we want to see Chinese.” See at that time, separate in the Chinese and the same oriental, Chinese and the Japanese, Chinese had this badge on the collar, you know? These Chinese flags on it. Now, they had a badge on it. Said, “Let’s go and get some of those badges.” So we walked out, we were scared, but we walked out and then we tried to go on the dark places, when I think we were walking down and here comes an old man, the Chinese man, you know. We looked at him and he had a badge on him. So we stopped him. And grabbed him. We didn't do anything, just “Give me that badge.” But he’s scared so they give it to us, eh? So, one is no good. We got to get another one, eh? Laughs. Walk down and two young guys came down, you know, the Chinese guy. So we grabbed them and he says, “Give me that badge.” And they were kind of talking back and all that, but they didn’t fight back or anything, so we took that badge. So, we ran back, oh golly it must have been twenty blocks we ran back and then we stayed in the room for what, ten days? We never went out any place because they announced it on the radio, too. There was a “Japanese people and some of them had been taking Chinese badges and going to these,” and so we stayed in and stayed in, and after ten days of course now we said, “Well what’s the use of getting a badge if we don’t get out. We better get out.” But we were really scared when we put that badge on and we went down to the first place, and we went to the Deadfather. Walked in there, you know, the sound of white people coming, say something this and that, but they didn’t, they were Chinese here. Saying they wanted to talk, we’ll talk, you know this and that. Sam was Canadian born, and ended up talking, but I didn’t say too much because I couldn’t speak too good, so he’s the one that was doing all the talking. You know. And after a while we’ve been there, well a good three months, we enjoyed it, going to this show all the time. Laughs.

Using your badges. Yeah.

Yeah. Laughs. And then finally time came, and we got the phone call. See, meantime we will be reporting to the Mounties, headquarter, every week eh? Every week in Japanese, these young Canadians, not issei’s, these older peoples, but the Canadian born.

Yeah.

Married one or single, they have to report it to the Mounties, the headquarter eh? And go down there, and we seen a lot of things down there, too. You know, one day we see they had all Japanese married man, these Canadians, lined up on the one row. And all the single ones in the one row. So make it about half a dozen people that’s standing there, put them in the building, or outside in the line up. So the young Mounties all outside. And heard they want us guys to line up straight. So these married guys who go on the back, they get all crooked and gradually they move over, and the lines are crooked, you know, there’s not like—says “Come on, come on, line up straight and the other single guys will go get your” Laughs. teasing them, you know. Well anyways, inside, when I was in there—I can’t really remember who that was but he was a married man, he had two children. He was interviewed for Mounties, you know the three or four Mounties at the desk, and standing there, you know. They ask, ask you all kind of questions. He answered. But that time when we went in there, that was about three months after I stayed in Vancouver. And he says, telling him, he got to go to the certain road camp. And this guy, this Japanese guy, says, he says, “Who’s going to look after my wife and kids?” He says, “My dad is already gone.” They send him some place, you know. The mother’s home, and the wife and kids. This town, talking about it, and then you hear after a while, “It’s just an order, you gotta go,” you know. So he reach into pocket and he brings a paper out, he says, said, “I can’t read this, what it says on this?” He says. He showed the Mountie. You know what that was? Birth certificate. His own birth record. And well this one Mountie said, “That's your birth certificate” and this and that, and eh “Don’t get smart,” and all that kind of thing you know, he was talking. And he ripped it up all into pieces.

Right in front of him?

See that, long time ago, I still have this birth certificate was that big.

Yeah.

You know? He ripped it up and he threw it on the desk like that. So one young Mountie pulled a pistol out. You know. And then says, “Come on, move over.” So they moved him over, they put him up, right in front of us guys, all you know, seeing. You just can’t do nothing, eh? Put him in there. I don’t know what happened after that, that fella, you know? A lot of these things were going on, eh. Because in down to Powell Street. And, it was during the afternoon. All kinds of these pamphlets.

Are these the mass evacuation group pamphlets?

Yeah I think so, but say, I looked at it. The one I looked at, it was English and Japanese was written on it. And what it was said on there, just a little bit is what I remember, it was you know, “Be like a Japanese,” it says “Behave yourself,” and then you know it says, “To take it,” it says, “Someday it’s going to be brand new day, it’s going to come,” like you know. So you know this is now.

Oh I see.

Warning all Japanese not to do foolish things.

Were those pamphlets put outside by the Morii Group?

Well I don’t know. I can’t remember.

I see.

But that, I remember on the street, and there’s some guys passing around, they had a one. I didn’t even keep it or anything. I can’t remember this now, just a sense of you know telling anybody that gets that you know, reading that, but that’s what it said on there. To you know, everyone be quiet, behave themself, you know. Someday it’s going to be you know, a brighter day, going to come. And I can remember all that because—and I remember that day, walking down to Powell, and then the guys, I think the older nissei’s I guess, were telling us to get down to the—I don’t know you ever heard of the Tairiku Nippo, this newspaper?

Yeah.

Says in the building upstairs, they says to gather there. I think it was around 6 o’clock or something. Well we didn’t know what was going on but we went anyway, you know? Yeah it was tough but maybe 70 or 80 people was gathered there. And I mean, well, there was a laugh and a good time there and you know, these guys are talking, and the older nisseis I think are the ones making the speeches and all that—half the time I wasn’t even listening. But anyway, that night too, by the time this guy made a speech and everything yeah and discussing they were doing, you know?

Yeah.

It was after 8 o'clock, eh. So I mean the—

Oh.

You know, the people can’t get out, eh? Laughs.

Right.

You know. Laughs. So everybody slept there on the floor, just like that. And next morning, early in the morning, I don’t even know about 5 o’clock or 6 o’clock in the morning, you could hear all the noise and all that and woke up and look up and hear uniform, “Soldiers! Soldiers!” Not the police, soldiers there with a gun, all standing there eh, all up the doorways and all that. Says “Come on! Come on! Get up and get! Get out!” Hauling away. So we go downstairs and downstairs and the sidewalk and there's all the army trucks lined up. So, “Get up there! Get up there!” And everybody gets on the truck and where do they take them? Down to the jail, eh. You know. I didn’t know what was going on after because they push us guys and put them down there, in their cell, oh great big places in there and a whole bunch of them all in there. But nobody’s having a bad time, they having all a good time. I mean, we never did nothing bad, eh, so I mean, yeah.

I suppose that was unlawful assembly, or something.

Yeah, yeah, mhmm.

Yeah. I see. What did—Did they let you guys go?

They didn’t do nothing! They didn’t even ask guys a question, no. We stayed overnight there, yeah all day, and that night there, and stayed there. And then let us guys go. You know. But oh golly, they had been banging the walls and all that, making all, oh golly those guards and them, there were having quite a time because—

Was this the immigration shed they put you in, or?

I think it was immigration place, I think it was. You know, all—yeah.

What was the meeting supposed to be about?

Well this is now, see it’s, see I guess, we were young yet eh? 26, 20 years old. So we don’t worry. But the little older ones, I mean we worried about them, you know, what we going to do about all these old peoples, too you know, we going to leave them behind? Well at that time they all figured that all these young people's going to be all sent to the camps, there will be no man will be left, only the women and children left, say what we going to do about this, eh? Now this thing, it just got—well actually it’s for nothing eh, because you can’t do nothing about it because even if you decide anything, well the government is going to do something about it. So I mean, you couldn’t do anything you know. Say, “Well that happened, eh.” This is at the end of it, they put them in to Hastings Park eh, all the families and that.

Yeah.

See? And well, even they say, “Well we’re going to this and that,” we couldn’t do anything anyway. Because the government is going to look after you.

Sounds like the mass evacuation.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Then finally my day came, you know. It was about 4 or 5 o’clock in the afternoon I got the phone call. See, I have my phone number for my friends house. So they tell me, “Tomorrow morning, 8 o’clock.” He says, “You got to get on the train. Head For Alberta.”

So they finally got, gave you you—

Yep. And then I went to the station, just my friends and myself. Or two of them, and went down to—Oh boy, what an awful feeling that was. Went down there, seeing the passenger car just like, you know, hold like ten, fifteen, all end up—All these civilians, myself, have to be—all soldiers going to the wars, all the uniformed soldiers, just packed in the trains! And they put me in there. All by myself. Oh, how did I feel? Golly. See in that time, we came out to the Nelson, Nelson you see? I never thought that—but you know, when I got on the train there isn’t a single guy helping me to where to sit down or anything. Well don’t matter, left and right where you look, all soldiers, eh. Sitting there. So I spot the one empty seat, so I went and sit down. Nobody bothered me, nobody said a word. You know. Nobody bothered me. Finally got to the Nelson, and I never had a suit. I was hungry, thirsty, ‘cause I won’t dare stand up and walk around up and down these trains all these soldiers, eh? So obviously, sitting still enough, same spot, all night. And then I couldn't even sleep, you know. So, got to the Nelson and all the soldiers got off. You know, I don’t know, they all disappeared, I don’t know where they went. But I got up, they all gone so I got up and went to the station. I grabbed a bun, and a quart of milk. And this guy yell at me, says, “Hey hey hey, leave it there, leave it,” he says. You know? So yeah I put it down. He says, “No I can’t sell it to you.” You know. So I can’t have a milk, and then I can’t have anything. So I go back to the train. I was just sitting there, you know. So another ten or fifteen minutes, Nelson city police come. Two of them, you know. They come down and say right around, say “You Hiro Kanashiro?” I say, “Yes.” They say, “You came from where and where, and you are going to the where?” You know I knew all the information from Vancouver, I guess, I mean everything you know. All written down there so they knew my age and knew everything. And so these two policeman are sitting there, talking to me. Say, “Oh hey, by the way,” he says, “Do you know Ben Aida?” I says, “Yes I know him.” He says, “How do you know him?” “Well I worked with him, at the Ocean Falls.” He says two brothers were there. Well that’s only Japanese family used to be in the Nelson.

Oh!

And these two policemen used to be this Benben’s schoolmates, eh. That’s why they know him, eh? So well, we talking about them Benben working in the paper mills and all these things. And then I told them, I says, “I’d like to have some kind of drink, you know.” Then he says, “Are you hungry?” I says, “Yes, but I want something to drink.” He says, “Okay, we’ll go down to the restaurant.” So Laughs. one policeman here, one policeman on this side, walking down the sidewalk with big policeman. You should have seen the people all on the street just walking eh because they figure, oh the policeman got some Japanese guy, taking him to the jail, or something.

You probably started forty rumours just by walking down the street.

Yeah. Laughs. Then got into the, says, one policeman says, “You know, you just can’t help but go to a Chinese restaurant.” Because the only restaurants around Nelson all Chinese restaurants, eh? So we went in there, and soon as we sit down the Chinese waiter comes out and says, “Na, na, na, na, na no not for him,” he says, you know. The policeman says, “Nevermind,” he says, “I want to order this,” he says, “Get me this.” You know. Policemen start to order their own. So they to bring it down, and then they send it over to me and then we eat it, you know. Yeah.

You didn’t keep your Chinese button with you and then put it on? Giggles.

No. Laughs. Then the—see I’ve been smoking a lot and then in the train you know I ran out of cigarettes too. So I wanted cigarettes. I started making, seeing, “Can’t we buy cigarettes too?” So I asked the policeman, I asked, “Well could we get the cigarettes?” So he says, “What are you smoking?” And I told him I smoke flares, so he got me a package of cigarettes. You know, they paid for it all too, the policeman, you know. And they took me back to the station and I was sitting there all by myself with the police for another, I think it was a 4 to 5 hour stop. At the Nelson. You know. By that time all the soldiers come back and head for Lethbridge. And we get to Lethbridge, and this Mr. Maduma come down from farm to pick me up on the truck. And he met me at the station. But he said to me, he says, “Oh Hiro,” he says “before we head to the farm, let’s go have a couple of beers and go home, eh?” I says, “Okay good idea.” So we went to the hotel. And bartender comes round and refuses us, says, “I can’t serve you guys.” And Laughs. Mr. Maduma says, All of his younger days, so he’s what? 60s? All the places he lived was Lethbridge, he never lived any place else in the Canada. So he gets mad and he pulls up the chair, stands up on the chair, he’s making a speech in broken English, eh. So all the beer parlour and all the people are full in there all listening to him, he was telling us, “Hey you guys, listen to me,” he says, “I’ve been living in the Lethbridge for so many years,” and then he says, “I can’t even have a glass of beer,” he says, you know. Says, “I could have one or two glasses of beer, and I sould walkout and they still didn’t want to serve me. What’s this now? War’s on, but not with us.” Says, “I’ve been living in the Canada longer than you guys,” he says. And then he starts crying, you know. And then he says, “You know that Lethbridge park, there?” He says, “Those great big trees there,” he says “who plant that?” He says, “Not the beer parlour standing on the chair. Who plant that trees? I bet not even one of the single guys here plant that trees there.” And one of them says, “I plant that tree in Lethbridge park. And then I can’t even have a glass of beer here,” he says. Well that manager came out, you know, but the manager knows him, you know. His name was Tom and of course he called him Tom Uncle, anyways. So he took him in the office and that, both of them sitting there, and this guy was explaining, he says, “It’s not me, it’s not about me, it’s the hotel that made the decision. And it’s not because we don’t want to give you guys a drink. It’s trying to avoid all the troubles if the Japanese come in here, you know a lot of soldiers and all that. So then there be no trouble. So it’s best to barr the Japanese.” Well he explains to him, “See we couldn’t even buy a beer from a liquor bender, see?” So he was telling him, “Tom any time you come into town, you want a beer or anything, you can drink it at home. So, you just come and see me.” He says, “I’ll get it for you. I’ll get it from a liquor vender and you can take it home and drink it.” So, okay. But I don’t think he went and asked him you know, but these kinds of things happened, you know. And then I think it was about two or three years later—I was telling you, eh, that those two policemen who looked after me at the Nelson? And one of them came down Lethbridge, he’s not a police anymore, he came down. He was looking for me! And finally he came, found Picture Butte and he came down, and had a really good time about that, you know. He was talking to me, “That time,” he says, “I was in the police force.” And then he says, “Sorry, I couldn’t help it anymore than I had, because you know.”

Orders are orders.

Yeah, orders. So I mean—oh golly, it was, this is just a movement, I’m talking about what we did but the feelings, oh my gollies, those were terrible, that time ago.

Did you feel sort of panicky most of the time?

Yes.

You didn’t know—

No matter where you go, you know you’re always scared, eh? Just like you’re a bunch of criminals, running around, hiding around, same thing you know because I mean you didn’t do anything but it’s always guilty, like, you know. I don’t know why I had to feel that way, but you know.

Perhaps you were afraid what others would do to you?

Yeah well I mean, since you look at the white people and all that—Well, like I say in Ocean Falls, when we leaving the job, we have to leave. And who was taking over our job? German Canadian and Italian Canadian. Which Canadians was fighting against the Germans.

Yeah.

And the Italian, oh—And then the Canadian born Italian and German people was taking our job, eh? You know? Pauses. But—

I understand.

—way easier to look back and see all these things, you know. Maybe hurt there, maybe it hurt a lot of families, too.

Yeah.

But in the long run, I think over all, I think, well, I’d say it was better for the Japanese. Which, they spread them out all over the Canada. Before they were all bunched up in the BC there and never seen the rest of Canada, and then you know that’s all they knew, eh? In around Vancouver and Steveston and all that, but just spread out all over the Canada and they, I mean, the second generation, third generation, I think that they have more opportunity to do something, you know.

Did you parents live in a company house or their own house in Ocean Falls?

Company’s house. There was no—there isn’t any houses there. The opportunity for them. There was all company houses.

I see, it was all company housing. Did they leave any belongings behind?

Well, nothing really. Like they say, radio.

They weren’t restricted to 150 pounds, or?

Well it’s not that—they never told us about the weight and all that, but just told us to you know leave the camera and if you have any guns and radios and all that kind of thing, you’re supposed to leave it behind. But I don’t think nobody really left them behind. They put the hammer to it and busted pieces, and then leave it, they didn’t want to leave it and give it to anybody, that’s how they felt, eh? And also, around that time, there's an awful lot of people come round to the Japanese home, “Do you want to sell that? Do you want to sell it?” And nobody wants to sell. And then there’s a place in Bella Coola, I think it was. Awful lot of Indians there, eh. And they knew it. So they come around, eh. So I don’t know why is that, but I didn’t. But I know my friends, and somebody, white people, come around and say, “I’d like to buy your radio, maybe they could buy it, too.” And the Indian comes round and they say, “Here you can have it.” They were given away eh, like this, you know. Yeah. But I mean, I felt myself at that time too, I mean, like I was still working until late, I was. Just about till, you know, last week, just before our family, the last one left. See because most of them was moving out to Vancouver and we were on holiday, couple months, so I thought I could work longer. And I stayed longer, too. By that time, these guards on the street, you know, all these soldiers with guns on the street and all that. Okay, you’d be coming home on 1 o’clock in the morning or something, you work ‘til 12 o’clock, and you’re walking down you know kind of dim light, and you could hardly see a guys face. They never say hello or nothing, you know. But the time was, going by, and these guys too, I was standing there I guess all the night crew on Sundays, and they say, “Hi, did you work hard today?” All easy, you know, you know? So I mean they’re all soldiers, we didn’t have any feeling against them, you know nothing, you know?

They were just kids like yourself.

Yeah.

Do you remember the day you left—the date of the day you left?

Ocean Falls?

Yeah.

Oh god, I don’t know. I think it was in January, I think it was.

It was January?

Yeah. Early, yeah.

That was before the evacuation?

Yeah. It was just—

Was your father a national?

Oh yeah, we left before the evacuation, our family.

Yeah.

Yes. Because they knew Alberta, so they were going to head for Alberta right away.

I see. Was your father a Japanese national?

Yeah. Well, I mean—

Well wasn’t naturalized.

He was a Canadian, you know.

He was naturalized, okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay. I didn’t realize that Ocean Falls had been evacuated prior to the evacuation in December?

Yeah, yeah, they’re, see, after they got out to the Vancouver, then they have to, you know, I mean everybody head to their friend’s place or somebody’s house, you know. Then some of them went to Hastings Park after, later on. But first part of the Ocean Falls and them, they had to get up to the Vancouver on the ships, so I mean, they’re, I think they did the first move. From there. All the people, they have to get out to Vancouver, so, you know. That was really sad, though. I mean I can remember, I was staying after this, Mr and Mrs Sakamoto’s house, and well, two men eh, two brothers, younger brother's married and with his family, and then the older brother, he didn’t have a wife. Doorbell rings in the background. And the daughter, and the son. No mother. And they were living together. And after that, the men, you know most brothers, had been sent out, eh? You know, to the camp. Well and the aunt and the kids, well of course I'm staying there, and then this friend of Sam, the oldest son, he was twenty years old, and daughter. It’s kind of awful feeling, eh. That most adults, the man is gone eh. When they leaving, you know, it’s just like a funeral.

Right. Quite.

You just think, they’re gone forever.

Right.

That’s how you feel, you know.

I think I know the feeling, my—Tape is rewound and taped over.

. . . anything like that behind, or anything, but some people did. I don’t know what some issei will say, but I think, I think you know, like, like Mr. Tommy Shoyama, you know our Deputy Finance Minister? Okay, if this never happened, I don’t think he’ll get there.

When I talked to him in Ottawa—

Oh you met him, eh?

Yeah. I had asked him if they told him in 1938 that he’d be Deputy Minister of Finance, what he would have said. And he said, “In 1938 I couldn’t even get a job.” Both laugh.

Yeah, right?

“I would have considered you out of your head to say that I would be Deputy Minister of Finance in 1938.”

Tape is rewound. I feel myself, just because of that war, you know, and then these evacuation, all these, that’s the reason these kind of people, anybody had to break, get up there. Because if it’s like before, no war, no evacuation, would have been the BC probably pushing the pulp. Because I did work with a lot of these engineers and you know anybody’s graduated from UBC, working the paper mill with us, all pushing the pulp, yes.

Yeah, one of the—Tape is rewound or sped up. Female voice from off tape talking in whispers.

These people—

He’d have to be younger than that because David Suzuki was six when he was evacuated and he’s forty now.

Oh, okay well he is . . . voice trails off. Tape is sped up again.

. . . he stopped and looked up at dad and mom and they’re right. Everything is right, you know?

Well you also, too, as nissei, did you really have much choice in what you did? I mean you had restrictions on you the sensei didn’t have.

Yeah.

Both by your parents and by the bigger world. I mean you didn't have much choice about pushing pulp.

That’s right.

You couldn’t have driven a bulldozer if you’d wanted to.

No the nissei’s worked hard, and our group was mainly to have our children get as much education as possible. This is our goal as parents.

At this conference? Tape is sped up again.

. . . went to the concentration camps, you know, this is what I can’t understand. You know all the thousands in these concentration camps, in Ontario, you know. There were people, they would separate people in these

Oh you mean places like Angler, internment camps?

Yeah.

People who were arrested before.

Yeah I mean just because the war broke out, why these guys, they got the finger on and then they have to go to these places. I mean I don’t think they did anything, they weren’t criminals or anything, you know?

No, no they weren't. A lot of those who were sent were leaders of the nissei mass evacuation. The government tried to stop that by trying to lop the head off the organization. But every time they’d arrest one batch of leaders, another batch of leaders would emerge and take over. So that it was a very strange movement. I found that it was a mixture of very democratic nissei types, oh generally ones with families. And Japanese nationals. Very strange mixture.

Yeah, yeah.

Doing it for opposite reasons but with the same goal in mind. Really a strange mixture of people. Then of course there were all you guys who just Laughs. went to the meetings. All laugh.

Yeah, it’s just . . .

So how many people will you be interviewing in this? Tape is paused.

You know, not—

If your permit was a week before then, it was, what, the middle of April that you came?

Yes I think so.

Yeah it was. Right.

Yeah because the first load would have been about the end of April. Some inaudible moments. Is that where you met him? Laughs.

I was glad to have that permit to come down here, but if I was going to spend my money to come down here but I could have waited for another week and came down. My friends came down with a whole bunch of people and what is it now, 12 dollars each or something they give it to them? You know? Laughs.

Did you apply for a refund?

No. Laughs.

Figured you better not rock the boat.

No. Oh god. Tape is paused. You know Ted, eh? Ted Aoki.

Yeah.

Their family and our family was in same farm.

Oh.

You know Irene Springs? We were on the same farm, just a block away. Our house out in the field there, in the woods side. Yeah.

Right.

Now that family was, I’ll tell ya, see like myself, all the days I did farming and dad did it too, so you know, if we were given it, we get used to it right away. Like Aoki’s family, it was really—

His dad was a teacher. Japanese school teacher.

Yeah his dad and mom was a teacher, kids never did farming work or anything. Yeah it was really hard.

Yeah, yeah I heard Ted’s story, he gave it—Tape is paused.

. . . school teacher in Japanese music. You know Roy, too?

I know of him. When he gave his little talk last weekend, he said he wasn’t the first, that he was the second and that Roy was the first.

Well Roy was first eh,

I think he may have male, I think he may have been the first male because Irene Uchida—

Uchida.

—taught for a year in Edmonton, way before the war. Before she had to go home and take care of her family.

Yeah Roy Uchida got a teaching job but it was for Hutterites.

Well Ted’s was for the Indians the first time. A lot of people I know, a lot of good teachers I know, started that with Hutterites or Indians. Tape is paused.

Eh?

What did you use for funds, for food?

Well I had—

You had your savings?

—sent a telegram three times to Alberta here.

You were lucky you were able to send a telegram.

Mother sent some money over, because I was staying at somebody else's houses, you know.

Amazes me the number of Japanese who lived on their savings for a long time.

Well our family wasn’t too bad because they came up right away, and they came to Alberta right away, so right in the farm right away, eh. Most families who got here, was all gone to Ontario.